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PostPosted: Tue Jan 17, 2017 7:45 am 
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OK. Well, I guess we've moved to being confrontational.

I'm not interested in it with you at the moment.

I don't think teacher's unions exist only to protect the incompetent and nefarious. I happen to believe they do protect, among other things, academic freedom.

We can argue whether their role is negative in the U.S. In Finland, they are considered part of its success; the teachers there are 95% unionized.
http://archive.jsonline.com/news/educat ... 46558.html

Since you're a fan of Ring of Fire network, perhaps this might be worth reading.
http://trofire.com/2015/08/21/without-e ... onder-why/

Have a nice day.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 17, 2017 12:00 pm 
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I'm not confrontational, I simply state facts. You simply find facts highly inconvenient and can't produce any to substantiate the why behind your statement. It's my mistake to think you were more reasonable.

It's a given that you and other unionists believe like True Believers, and asking WHY you're a true believer is clearly asking too much of you. Unionism is now demonstrated by yourself to be a faith-based, not reason-based, belief system.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 17, 2017 1:39 pm 
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I'm not confrontational, I simply state facts. You simply find facts highly inconvenient and can't produce any to substantiate the why behind your statement. It's my mistake to think you were more reasonable.

It's a given that you and other unionists believe like True Believers, and asking WHY you're a true believer is clearly asking too much of you. Unionism is now demonstrated by yourself to be a faith-based, not reason-based, belief system.


It appears you are a true believer in sweeping stereotypes. You haven't produced any facts to support your statements, you've only produced your opinion. You mentioned a reason-based, belief system. I call that logic.

You're pushing an informal fallacy here. A "Moralistic fallacy – inferring factual conclusions from purely evaluative premises in violation of fact–value distinction."

Basically inferring is, from ought.


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 17, 2017 1:47 pm 
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It appears you are a true believer in sweeping stereotypes. You haven't produced any facts to support your statements, you've only produced your opinion. You mentioned a reason-based, belief system. I call that logic.

You're pushing an informal fallacy here. A "Moralistic fallacy – inferring factual conclusions from purely evaluative premises in violation of fact–value distinction."

Basically inferring is, from ought.

As I've said in the other thread, I'm a firm believer in my own personal experience, which you continue to declare by fiat to be a stereotype...all the while that unions marvel at voters who, in their view, vote against their own interests when they aren't. Reality has a way of dealing with people who don't deal with reality, and the decline of unions even in the eyes of workers stands as testimony to that inconvenient fact. Hold fast to that delusion of yours and unions will continue to decline as workers decline to have any kind of faith in your religious belief that what you say is true. The rest of us know better.

Here's a reminder that I'm a former member of the IBEW. When I was trying to work my way thru college, I was dealing with a restaurant cook's union. You're not persuasive to new membership every time your unions call college students scabs and take out your contempt on the student when your contempt is for management. #EpicFAIL
...and then you scratch your head about how the workers always "vote against their interests". Why? You've gone union-blind to reality. Added to that blindness is turning a blind eye to the misogyny fostered by union traditions among male-traditional unions, which the IBEW certainly is prominent among them. And there are traditionally racist unions, such as among the police. Deal with reality, because reality is certainly dealing with you.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 17, 2017 4:03 pm 
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I'm not confrontational, I simply state facts. You simply find facts highly inconvenient and can't produce any to substantiate the why behind your statement. It's my mistake to think you were more reasonable.


No, "teacher's unions exist only to protect the incompetent and nefarious" is an opinion. Opinions can be sustained by facts. Let me know what you have to support that assertion.

Now, the interesting thing is, I was wondering whether you were one of those folks who simply didn't like teacher's and police unions, but liked the other kind. I guess I should have noticed you started out by indicating that there was some union support for Trump. I wasn't aware you were categorically anti-union. But now I understand your position.

Quote:
It's a given that you and other unionists believe like True Believers, and asking WHY you're a true believer is clearly asking too much of you. Unionism is now demonstrated by yourself to be a faith-based, not reason-based, belief system.


You caught me a bit by surprise. You said you were a huge Ring of Fire fan. Mike, Farron, RFK Jr., and Sam are all very much pro-union.

For example:
https://trofire.com/2015/08/10/scott-wa ... nal-stage/
https://trofire.com/2016/01/12/latest-a ... argaining/

Is their support "faith-based" or "reason-based"?

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 17, 2017 9:13 pm 
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Of course RoF is all pro-union. Ed Schultz is one of their hosts. So? You're adding 2 and 2 and coming up with 6 1/2.

You've ignored what I said about parents getting the impression from teachers unions, and it's mainly because this is the impression given by the unions. Just like Clinton, unions gotta blame everybody but themselves when that's exactly where the fault is. My reasons: IBEW, parents, and Black Lives Matter. You have yet to come up with ONE single reason for you believing in your religion, which remains a religion until you can come up with any reasons. Religious belief is by fiat alone; sanity requires reasons. Cough up yours, if you have any.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 17, 2017 9:20 pm 
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My reasons: IBEW, parents, and Black Lives Matter.


I'm going to start a new blog. It's going to be called, Easy Targets for Lazy People.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 17, 2017 9:27 pm 
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I believe in graphs.

Image

I believe in history.

https://thinkprogress.org/report-five-t ... .vgnnnwpkx

1. Unions Gave Us The Weekend
2. Unions Gave Us Fair Wages And Relative Income Equality
3. Unions Helped End Child Labor
4. Unions Won Widespread Employer-Based Health Coverage
5. Unions Spearheaded The Fight For The Family And Medical Leave Act

Say three Hail Maries, and swing the incense, and go forth and sin no more.

I accept there is a problematic labor movement history in this country (and not just this one), with regard to minorities, women, and especially immigrants, and it needs to be noted. For example, unions backed the Chinese Exclusion Act of 1882. I take that point, and one of our local unionists, GoU, has accepted and noted this history, too.

How the "white working class" voted in 2016 is an issue we've discussed before you got here, including its complexities. (As I think I said earlier, some segment of those folks, union members or not, still voted for Hillary, even in the "blue wall" states, they had to, or Trump wouldn't have won by only 70,000 votes there.)

I can acknowledge that, and note the gains they achieved for working people, and even those outside the formal labor sector.

I'm sorry about your experience with the IBEW.

Clara, forgive me for asking the question, but I again am at the point where I need to understand who I'm dealing with: do you consider yourself a liberal or progressive? But an anti-union one?

BTW, I never had a problem with Majesty. We argued about stuff, but, then, we do that.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 17, 2017 11:46 pm 
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Lovely yesterday you've got. What have your unions done to persuade workers that they're any good today? My reasons are of recent vintage, including arguments against unions. What have your unions done today to persuade workers that they're better than the always-on-strike French? I don't see anything of the sort in your mothball citations. Seriously--what have teachers unions done today to persuade parents that their idea of organization is doing the students any good at all?

Consider the possibility, however remote, that good ole boy unions are reasons for the women workers to vote against 'em, and quite frankly, the union of the Chicago Police Department didn't keep 'em from being ripped by the national Department of Justice.

I forgive you for asking the question as to which pigeonhole you think I should fit in, but I don't forgive you for wanting to pigeonhole either me or Majesty. I don't fit in any of them, and I've always billed myself as independent. I'll never think in lock step with either liberal or conservative echo chambers, and I'm infamous for asking pointed questions. Sorry.

No need to apologize for IBEW's misogyny because they're not the only union that commits it--just ask any female miner, etc. And the Chicago Police union has institutionalized racism, as has Ferguson MO's and sooooo many others. That's reality. So is the reality of parents who are up-to-here frustrated by the protection racket run by teachers unions. They don't fire bad teachers, they just re-shuffle 'em and you wonder why vouchers to private schools have gotten so popular among voting parents.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 18, 2017 12:03 am 
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I'm going to start a new blog. It's going to be called, Easy Targets for Lazy People.

I should care because of why, exactly? I've got you pegged as a pigeonholer, and I'm sure you don't care either. We're even.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 18, 2017 12:29 am 
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I should care because of why, exactly? I've got you pegged as a pigeonholer, and I'm sure you don't care either. We're even.


We're not really even, since this isn't a contest and you're not in competition with me.

But let's see here...you've got me pegged. Alright. But I'm the pigeonholer.

Right. Okay. :?

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 18, 2017 12:51 am 
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We're not really even, since this isn't a contest and you're not in competition with me.

But let's see here...you've got me pegged. Alright. But I'm the pigeonholer.

Right. Okay. :?


Well, at least we finally agree on something. The evidence you provide that you're vexed that Majesty doesn't fit into any one of your neat li'l cubbyholes is evidence enough. I'll warrant I'll vex you no end for the same reason. We're even--the pigeonholer is thus placed neatly into a cubbyhole.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 18, 2017 7:46 am 
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Consider the possibility, however remote, that good ole boy unions are reasons for the women workers to vote against 'em,


You know, the way I look at it, labor unions are social institutions in this country, and inevitably, like other social institutions, institutionally affected by societal racism and sexism. No doubt about it. It'd be surprising for it to be otherwise.
But;

Say, Clara, as long as we're asking questions, how do you feel about female-led unions?

We could talk about the Women's Trade Union League, founded in 1903, which among other things, fought for women's suffrage.

Did you know one of the earliest unions in the U.S. was for the Lowell mill workers in 1834, who were all female?

http://www.iwpr.org/initiatives/women-in-unions

Women’s union membership has been increasing, with more than half of some unions’ membership being women.

[snip][end]

Next question. Any thoughts about this stat?

http://www.aflcio.org/Blog/Organizing-B ... -in-Unions

"The labor movement was the principal force that transformed misery and despair into hope and progress.”
The Rev. Martin Luther King Jr. said that in 1965, and African Americans still hear his quote ring.

A new report, Blacks in Unions: 2012, by the University of California, Berkeley, Center for Labor Research and Education, finds that black workers are 19% more likely to be in unions than non-black workers. In the nation’s 10 largest metropolitan areas, African Americans are 42% more likely than non-blacks to be in unions.

[snip][end]

Those stats, BTW, are of "recent vintage".

Oh and I got one more. What do you think of this guy?

Cesar Chavez and the UFW

Image

He was a union leader. (And fighter for Chicano rights.)
It was one of the honors of my life to get to meet him back in the early 90s.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 18, 2017 1:36 pm 
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Well, at least we finally agree on something.


Finally? We have only had 4 exchanges at the most. Unless you're socking.

Quote:
The evidence you provide that you're vexed that Majesty doesn't fit into any one of your neat li'l cubbyholes is evidence enough. I'll warrant I'll vex you no end for the same reason. We're even--the pigeonholer is thus placed neatly into a cubbyhole.


Are you still suffering from hurt feelings from an unrelated thread? This thread is not about Majesty, the guy who's no longer her but that you'd like to use as a bat to beat others on this board. That's the other thread.

Pay attention. "We" are not even. "We" are not in any kind of competition.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 18, 2017 3:35 pm 
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Next question. Any thoughts about this stat?

http://www.aflcio.org/Blog/Organizing-B ... -in-Unions

"The labor movement was the principal force that transformed misery and despair into hope and progress.”
The Rev. Martin Luther King Jr. said that in 1965, and African Americans still hear his quote ring.

A new report, Blacks in Unions: 2012, by the University of California, Berkeley, Center for Labor Research and Education, finds that black workers are 19% more likely to be in unions than non-black workers. In the nation’s 10 largest metropolitan areas, African Americans are 42% more likely than non-blacks to be in unions.




Those numbers aren't reflective of union acceptance. It's a result of a higher percentage of African American employment in the public sector which is 35% union vs 6.7% union in private sector. All you need to look at are the union building trades to get an idea of African American acceptance in trade unions.


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PostPosted: Wed May 10, 2017 9:34 pm 
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Why Yale Graduate Students Are on a Hunger Strike


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Two weeks ago, Yale graduate student teachers began a hunger strike to pressure the school to negotiate with their union. Eight committed to fasting, planning only to stop if a doctor says their health is at risk of permanent damage. If a student has to stop fasting, another union member takes his or her spot. Four of the students have had nothing but water for 14 days.

The measures these graduate student teachers are taking are dramatic. But their cause — a fight for decent, secure wages and comprehensive benefits — has implications for the entire labor market.

Like many colleges and universities, Yale relies on graduate students and other low-paid contingent faculty members, like adjunct professors, to teach much of its coursework. Contingent faculty members make up about 70 percent of the teachers in higher education in the United States. They work entirely on contract. They are poorly paid and lack access to affordable health care, job security or a voice in their working conditions.

It is not shocking that these teachers have turned to unions. What is shocking is how a lot of universities have responded.

Last August, the National Labor Relations Board ruled that graduate teachers at private universities are employees and therefore, have the right to collective bargaining. Graduate students in eight departments at Yale voted to unionize, seeking better wages and health care, as well as access to a legal grievance process and better accountability for problems like sexual harassment.

But Yale refused to acknowledge the union. Instead, it hired Proskauer Rose, a high-powered law firm that specializes in union-busting, to harass and intimidate the students. Lawyers forced students into a ...........


not surprised its the inequality at work whether a small town community college or yale

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PostPosted: Wed May 10, 2017 9:58 pm 
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Graduate student unions have been an issue for a long time. I remember the one at Berkeley faced an uphill battle, but I find that I don't remember how it went for them.

I remember discussing it with Carmen years ago. :|

Graduate students face a form of economic serfdom, and a thoroughly exhausting hazing experience, which by comparison the hazing fraternities impose upon their pledges would seem mild.


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 29, 2017 1:26 pm 
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wondering about this one

Detroit police: New Red Wings arena worker's death a likely suicide

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The death of an electrician in a fall this morning at Little Caesars Arena in Detroit is believed to be a suicide, according to the Detroit Police Department.

"We're leaning towards a suicide based off witness statements and our investigation," said Detroit Police Media Relations Director Michael Woody, who said the investigation will be concluded once the department receives the medical examiner's report. The report could take several weeks, he said. ...........




Quote:
......The police department's assertion follows a statement from the arena's general contractor, which said it did not believe the death to be "a construction-related accident."

"After a review of the facts surrounding today's tragic event, we have reached a preliminary conclusion that this event was not the result of a construction-related accident," Barton Malow CEO Ryan Maibach said in a statement. "Additional information may become available as the Detroit Police Department concludes their investigation.".......


heres an earlier state supreme court case involving the same company and what appears to be quite similar situation involving lack of fall protection that cost them over a million dollars in which they argue they werent at fault.

2014-2015 Case Information

Quote:
Plaintiff Douglas Latham sought damages for an injury suffered while employed by B&H Construction on a school project for the Lake Orion School District. Lake Orion hired defendant Barton Malow Company as a construction manager. Latham, a skilled carpenter, was injured when he fell 13 to 17 feet while trying to access a mezzanine level at the school construction site.

Latham sued Barton-Malow, contending that it failed to provide him personal fall protection, and that it was liable under the common work area doctrine. In order to establish a claim under the common work area doctrine, a plaintiff must establish: (1) that a defendant general contractor failed to take reasonable steps within its supervisory and coordinating authority, (2) to guard against readily observable and avoidable dangers, (3) that created a high degree of risk to a significant number of workers, (3) in a common work area. A jury concluded that Barton Malow was 55% negligent in causing the accident that resulted in Latham’s injuries. A judgment exceeding $1.1 million was entered in Latham’s favor.

Barton Malow appealed to the Court of Appeals arguing, as it had in the trial court, that it could not be liable for Latham’s injuries under the common work area doctrine because it was the construction manager, not the general contractor. Barton Malow alternatively argued that Latham did not prove the elements of the common work area doctrine and that the court had improperly instructed the jury on these elements. Barton Malow also contested the trial court’s award to Latham of interest on attorney fees and taxable costs..............


video here
Worker dies of apparent suicide at Detroit's Little Caesars Arena construction site

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 07, 2017 8:26 pm 
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Japanese reporter dies after clocking 159 hours of overtime

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A Japanese news reporter who was employed by the national broadcasting network NHK was found dead after working 159 hours of overtime in one month.

Thirty-one-year-old Miwa Sado, a political reporter for the news agency, was reportedly found dead in her bed in July 2013, according to Yahoo! News Philippines. Her cause of death was not made publicly available until this week after her parents put pressure on the company to take action.

According to AOL News, Sado died of congestive heart failure.

Prior to her death, Sado was covering Tokyo assembly elections, as well as an upper-house vote for the national parliament. It was just three days after the upper-house election Sado was found dead.............

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 07, 2017 9:24 pm 
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That's pretty rough, I have some sense of how rough it is. Seven 12 hour days a week is standard for officers in the Alaskan fishing industry. AB's and process employees punch a clock, sometimes they'll clock a 25 to 30 hour shift, but they don't tend to average above those 7-12's day in and day out.

I've never figured it out on a monthly basis. (12 hours x 30 days) - (8 hours normal hours x 22 normal days) = 184 hours per month of overtime. :|

I did 5 months of that, then had 3 months off, then did 6 more months of it, then quit forever. I felt gray all the time and that three months of vacation didn't recharge me completely. When I came off of that second contract I didn't feel good enough to start working again for 6 or 7 months, and it was a year or two before I got to where I was feeling totally normal again.

An engineer on another ship collapsed and was dead just like that. He looked like he was 45, he might have been 35. I was 30 but looked 35 my parents said. I don't know what he died of, they hauled him away on a helicopter.

Rumors were they found needles and Cocaine in his cabin.


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 07, 2017 9:57 pm 
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Sam Lefthand wrote:

That's pretty rough, I have some sense of how rough it is. Seven 12 hour days a week is standard for officers in the Alaskan fishing industry. AB's and process employees punch a clock, sometimes they'll clock a 25 to 30 hour shift, but they don't tend to average above those 7-12's day in and day out.

I've never figured it out on a monthly basis. (12 hours x 30 days) - (8 hours normal hours x 22 normal days) = 184 hours per month of overtime. :|

I did 5 months of that, then had 3 months off, then did 6 more months of it, then quit forever. I felt gray all the time and that three months of vacation didn't recharge me completely. When I came off of that second contract I didn't feel good enough to start working again for 6 or 7 months, and it was a year or two before I got to where I was feeling totally normal again.

An engineer on another ship collapsed and was dead just like that. He looked like he was 45, he might have been 35. I was 30 but looked 35 my parents said. I don't know what he died of, they hauled him away on a helicopter.

Rumors were they found needles and Cocaine in his cabin.

yea going back to a base schedule every so often at least helps but managers nowadays they are as toxic as they are invisible they just assume leave it wide open all the time and take advantage as it breaks the worker down. you do more but become less valuable through mistakes and fatigue.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 11, 2017 4:59 pm 
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For young women, poverty and poor mental health are a fact of life

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Low pay, insecure jobs and debt is causing everyday financial problems – no wonder their mental health is suffering too.......


..........Financial anxiety, by definition, is an issue of mental health. It’s heartbreaking to think that almost four in 10 young people say they feel “worn down”, not words that those who are supposed to be at an exciting, carefree stage in their lives should be using to describe their day-to-day existence. Poverty has a habit of seeping into every aspect of your life – your diet suffers, your energy is sapped from constant worrying, and your lack of funds exacerbates loneliness and isolation.

The bureaucracy you face is labyrinthine and all-consuming, the systems in place and the hoops you have to jump through feel designed to humiliate. The way you are spoken to by people employed to help you can be so rude and uncaring that it brings you to tears. Perhaps you can’t afford tampons or toilet paper, sometimes stealing the latter from work. Your home might be cold and damp, causing a cough you just can’t shake. Your children, if you have them, often go without........

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