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PostPosted: Sun Jul 10, 2016 11:27 am 
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The right hates unions;

Well, I'm not crazy about the NRA. But I don't call for it's abolishon and for all it's members who don't like it to be put into jail or killed.

This is, nominally, a free country. Moneyed people have the right to collectively form corporations, and those entities have rights like a human being.

So, why shouldn't workers have the right to form groups to collectively bargain with those entities?

I ask those who think otherwise - where in our Constitution does it give the right to the government to outlaw such organizations?

I can't see why, if you are an American who believes in freedom, the Constitution and our right to peaceably assemble, and the right of workers NOT to work (i.e. slavery and indentured servitude was banned by the Thirteenth Amendment) in our nation, I would like to see justification to outlaw unions.

I dare you.


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 10, 2016 12:32 pm 
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I know corporations and the RW press has spent untold millions over the years spreading propaganda and myths about unions, and union members.

I read them parroted over and over again in the comments sections of news stories.

Canada Post has given a lockout notice to the Canadian Union of Postal Workers. CBC, the public broadcaster, has been conducting a disinformation campaign about the post office and the union. "Canada Post is in financial straits, the union should give in to the demands." No, Canada Post made a $63 PROFIT last year. "The pension plan is in a $1 billion deficit." No, the pension plan has a $2.5 BILLION surplus.

Canada Post's board of directors was appointed by Harper, and they want to privatize the corporation. CBC has been just parroting their lies.

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PostPosted: Sun Jul 10, 2016 3:05 pm 
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The right hates unions;

Well, I'm not crazy about the NRA. But I don't call for it's abolishon and for all it's members who don't like it to be put into jail or killed.

This is, nominally, a free country. Moneyed people have the right to collectively form corporations, and those entities have rights like a human being.

So, why shouldn't workers have the right to form groups to collectively bargain with those entities?

I ask those who think otherwise - where in our Constitution does it give the right to the government to outlaw such organizations?

I can't see why, if you are an American who believes in freedom, the Constitution and our right to peaceably assemble, and the right of workers NOT to work (i.e. slavery and indentured servitude was banned by the Thirteenth Amendment) in our nation, I would like to see justification to outlaw unions.

I dare you.

The right does not hate unions they love em as long as they are working in their interest. they hate others to have unions that oppose their interest though.

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PostPosted: Sun Jul 10, 2016 3:17 pm 
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The right does not hate unions they love em as long as they are working in their interest. they hate others to have unions that oppose their interest though.

If they don't hate them, then why are they trying to bury them? Honest question.


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 10, 2016 3:26 pm 
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If they don't hate them, then why are they trying to bury them? Honest question.


they hate others to do the same thing that works for them

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PostPosted: Sun Jul 10, 2016 3:30 pm 
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they hate others to do the same thing that works for them

Well, the right is trying to outlaw unions, or render them ineffective if they can't outlaw them. But they DO want to destroy unions.


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 10, 2016 3:36 pm 
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Well, the right is trying to outlaw unions, or render them ineffective if they can't outlaw them. But they DO want to destroy unions.


not the chamber of commerce or the nra

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PostPosted: Sun Jul 10, 2016 4:14 pm 
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not the chamber of commerce or the nra

Those aren't unions. Neither one of those institutions represent the rights of workers.

There is one set of unions that the righties like. Police unions. Ironically enough, those are the one set of unions that behave in the manner they portray all unions doing.

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PostPosted: Sun Jul 10, 2016 4:22 pm 
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Those aren't unions. Neither one of those institutions represent the rights of workers.

There is one set of unions that the righties like. Police unions. Ironically enough, those are the one set of unions that behave in the manner they portray all unions doing.


theyre not labor unions but they are unions they like unions for themselves but not others. kind of like education.

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PostPosted: Sun Jul 10, 2016 4:37 pm 
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theyre not labor unions but they are unions they like unions for themselves but not others. kind of like education.

They ARE organizations of people for a common purpose. The chamber IS kind of the business communities union. Also different manufacturer's associations. And the workers have no say in what organizations their employers belong to, so why should an employer have any voice in whether workers form a union or not?


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 10, 2016 4:40 pm 
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They ARE organizations of people for a common purpose. The chamber IS kind of the business communities union. Also different manufacturer's associations. And the workers have no say in what organizations their employers belong to, so why should an employer have any voice in whether workers form a union or not?


well they shouldnt

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PostPosted: Sun Jul 10, 2016 4:54 pm 
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well they shouldnt

They do. They spend tens of thousands of dollars when you try to organize them. They have captive audience meetings, closed door one-on-ones, illegally fire union-friendly workers, all kinds of stuff.


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 10, 2016 5:00 pm 
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They do. They spend tens of thousands of dollars when you try to organize them. They have captive audience meetings, closed door one-on-ones, illegally fire union-friendly workers, all kinds of stuff.


yes and they do those things with the help of their own unions. they work together and stick together to get it done.

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PostPosted: Sun Jul 10, 2016 5:35 pm 
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Quote:
U.S. Chamber of Commerce, a powerful business lobbying group in the United States that "has become a fully functional part of the partisan Republican machine" since CEO and president Thomas J. Donohue took office in 1997. Prior to Donohue's tenure, the Chamber "used to be a trade association that advocated in a bipartisan manner for narrowly tailored policies to benefit its members." [1] The Chamber's 2010 budget is approximately $200 million, but as a trade organization, its donors can remain anonymous. [2]

According to its website, the U.S. Chamber of Commerce "has one overarching mission—to strengthen the competitiveness of the U.S. economy.[3] It describes itself as "the world's largest business federation representing more than 3 million businesses and organizations of every size, sector, and region."[4]

Despite these claims, the New York Times reported in October 2010 that half of the Chamber's $140 million in contributions in 2008 came from just 45 big-money donors, many of whom enlisted the Chamber's help to fight political and public opinion battles on their behalf (such as opposing financial or healthcare reforms, or other regulations). [2] The Chamber is "dominated by oil companies, pharmaceutical giants, automakers and other polluting industries," according to James Carter, executive director of the Green Chamber of Commerce.[5]

<snip>

http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php/U.S._Chamber_of_Commerce

http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php/National_Rifle_Association

They're not unions.

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PostPosted: Sun Jul 10, 2016 5:54 pm 
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*sigh*

I KNOW THAT! I'm betting I know a great deal more about this than you do, with all due respect. You aren't doing a "gotcha" on me. :problem:

But there ARE similarities. That's ALL I'm saying. Manufacturer's associations and Chambers are groups that form together for mutual benefit, and to promote issues that are important to them.

The NRA is basically the same thing - a group of people - and in the NRA's case, manufacturers too - that join together for their benefits and goals.

Same thing with unions, workers banding together for a common cause. They even lobby for laws in their favor like the other two groups. Biggest difference is that unions collectively bargain, and are under totally different laws. Unions ARE totally unique organizations. But there is no reason for the boss to have a voice in a decision whether you want to join an organization or not.


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 10, 2016 7:50 pm 
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The right does not hate unions they love em as long as they are working in their interest. they hate others to have unions that oppose their interest though.
Yeah right. "Right to work" is full out war on unions.

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PostPosted: Sun Jul 10, 2016 7:52 pm 
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In Canada, Walmart closed stores rather than let workers unionize.

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PostPosted: Sun Jul 10, 2016 8:44 pm 
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*sigh*

I KNOW THAT! I'm betting I know a great deal more about this than you do, with all due respect. You aren't doing a "gotcha" on me. :problem:

But there ARE similarities. That's ALL I'm saying. Manufacturer's associations and Chambers are groups that form together for mutual benefit, and to promote issues that are important to them.

The NRA is basically the same thing - a group of people - and in the NRA's case, manufacturers too - that join together for their benefits and goals.

Same thing with unions, workers banding together for a common cause. They even lobby for laws in their favor like the other two groups. Biggest difference is that unions collectively bargain, and are under totally different laws. Unions ARE totally unique organizations. But there is no reason for the boss to have a voice in a decision whether you want to join an organization or not.

Yeah, except that labor unions are perceived as a threat to those who "own" the means of production and distribution.

No, there is little chance anyone can do a gotcha on you with regard to labor unions.

The point is that folks supposedly have a right to assembly...and yet various powerful factions in America have been able to seriously curtail this basic, supposedly inalienable right for the folks who make it possible for these powerful factions to be so powerful in the first place.


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 10, 2016 9:23 pm 
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I don't understand this thread topic.

There are no valid logical reasons unions shouldn't exist. I can't think of any almost valid logical reasons either.

I can't think of anything about this topic to discuss.


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 10, 2016 9:29 pm 
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I don't understand this thread topic.

There are no valid logical reasons unions shouldn't exist. I can't think of any almost valid logical reasons either.

I can't think of anything about this topic to discuss.

I'm waiting for those who believes that they should be outlawed to address the subject and explain why they think so. All the rest is chatter.

I wouldn't be surprised if they don't run away from the thread.


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 10, 2016 10:01 pm 
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Oh, you're fishing. Sorry I cast my shadow over your fishing hole.


GoUnion, I think all of those fishy righty types wandered off, or were banned from here eons ago. However maybe there is someone lurking in the depths will see this thread and join the board so they can bite on your hook.


Good luck.


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 10, 2016 10:53 pm 
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Oh, you're fishing. Sorry I cast my shadow over your fishing hole.


GoUnion, I think all of those fishy righty types wandered off, or were banned from here eons ago. However maybe there is someone lurking in the depths will see this thread and join the board so they can bite on your hook.


Good luck.

Not fishing. Wanting them to stand up like men and make their case. I want to see if they can. I don't think so.


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 13, 2016 10:09 pm 
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Unions should exist if workers decide they want to be part of one. I also don't see an issue with a company doing a cost benefit analysis and saying they are going to shut down stores that have unionized if it makes them non competitive in that market. I also don't see any issue with a company having ability to give their reasons against unionization to their employees leading up to vote.

I do not support companies doing shock and awe fear before a vote to strong arm employees to vote no.

It is a balance, a strong fair worker/employer relationship works best for both. But they have to understand they have common interests. Can't be all one side or the other. Now Walmart, McDonald's etc... hire very unskilled workers and many of those waiting in line. So by default these companies have strong upper hand.

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 13, 2016 10:50 pm 
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Unions should exist if workers decide they want to be part of one. I also don't see an issue with a company doing a cost benefit analysis and saying they are going to shut down stores that have unionized if it makes them non competitive in that market. I also don't see any issue with a company having ability to give their reasons against unionization to their employees leading up to vote.

I do not support companies doing shock and awe fear before a vote to strong arm employees to vote no.

It is a balance, a strong fair worker/employer relationship works best for both. But they have to understand they have common interests. Can't be all one side or the other. Now Walmart, McDonald's etc... hire very unskilled workers and many of those waiting in line. So by default these companies have strong upper hand.
Bullshit. They don't want unions because that eats into their billions of profits. They want the lowest wage worker and make them work twice as hard or they get fired. All for made in China with child/slave labor at pennies on the dollar.

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 14, 2016 10:43 am 
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Unions should exist if workers decide they want to be part of one. I also don't see an issue with a company doing a cost benefit analysis and saying they are going to shut down stores that have unionized if it makes them non competitive in that market. I also don't see any issue with a company having ability to give their reasons against unionization to their employees leading up to vote.

I do not support companies doing shock and awe fear before a vote to strong arm employees to vote no.

It is a balance, a strong fair worker/employer relationship works best for both. But they have to understand they have common interests. Can't be all one side or the other. Now Walmart, McDonald's etc... hire very unskilled workers and many of those waiting in line. So by default these companies have strong upper hand.

First, shutting down a facility because the workforce unionized is never financially viable. The cost of shutting down and moving production is obviously going to be more than a three percent raise the workers might get.

Which is why saying "we're going to shut down if you vote yes" is a threat that's virtually NEVER carried out. But it's why it's illegal under the law for them to make.

Again, the workers aren't asked if the company joins the Chamber of Commerce, so the company shouldn't be involved in any way in the worker's decision on whether to form a union or not.

Low-wage and skills don't matter. Costco proves that you can pay high wages - nearly double, in Costco's case - and still be competitive.

In the grocery biz, stores like Kroger are unionized in most places. They are quite competitive in the markets they are in. Stores like Winco, which are showing that wages and benefits doesn't mean they aren't competitive:

WinCo, a small, employee-owned grocery store chain based in Boise, Idaho, is able to beat Walmart’s prices on goods while providing its employees with good benefits.

The company, which will soon have close to 100 stores with the latest openings in Texas, has almost 15,000 employees. Those who work at the store long enough qualify for a pension plan into which the company puts an amount equal to 20 percent of their yearly pay. More than 400 “front-line” workers — clerks, cashiers, and others who are not at the executive level — have retirement accounts that are worth at least $1 million, according to a company spokesman.

It also provides full health benefits for those who work at least 24 hours a week, beyond the requirements in the Affordable Care Act. While the company is private and hasn’t made wage information available, Glassdoor reports that cashiers and clerks make more than $11 an hour. Thanks to these benefits and wages, the company has low turnover. An industry analyst estimated that the average hourly worker stays with the company for more than eight years.


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