RadioFreeLiberal.com

Smart Voices, Be Heard
It is currently Fri Nov 24, 2017 8:56 am

All times are UTC - 5 hours [ DST ]


Forum rules


Please click here to view the forum rules



Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 13 posts ] 
Author Message
 Post subject: Amazon Go
PostPosted: Sun Dec 11, 2016 5:08 pm 
Online
Board Emeritus
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jul 02, 2015 6:57 pm
Posts: 8316
Location: Sunny South Florida
I think this is definitely a Labor issue.

Amazon Go grocery store replaces cashiers with automation and AI
Amazon recently announced Go, a brick-and-mortar concept store that uses technologies like artificial intelligence to eliminate the need for cashiers.
http://www.techrepublic.com/article/ama ... on-and-ai/

If you're wondering what the grocery store of the future looks like, Amazon may have just painted the clearest picture yet. On Monday, Amazon announced Amazon Go, a brick-and-mortar grocery store that has eliminated the need for cashiers and checkouts, instead relying on specific technologies to confirm your purchase.

Amazon calls this group of tools its Just Walk Out technology, and it includes technologies such as "computer vision, sensor fusion, and deep learning," according to its website. Users simply visit the store—located in Seattle—and shop for the items they need. Just Walk Out detects what you take and charges your Amazon account after you leave the store.

The store itself is about 1,800 square feet, the website said, and it is designed to eliminate long lines and the checkout process. In addition to regular grocery items, the store also carries ready-to-eat meals and snacks and newly-introduced Amazon Meal Kits, the website said, which include everything you need to make a meal at home.

To shop at Amazon Go, you must have an Amazon account, the free Amazon Go app, and a compatible smartphone. Right now, though, the store is only open to Amazon employees and beta customers. However, it will be open to the public in early 2017.

[snip]

However, what the Amazon Go concept also illustrates is how automation will eliminate certain jobs, or at least transfer more jobs from manual labor (cashiers) to software and systems engineers. Other companies like McDonald's have also looked to automation, especially as public conversations around minimum wage hikes continue to move into the spotlight.

Automation will also likely be coming to corporate and IT work as well. According to a Tech Pro Research report, 74% of businesses are already automating some IT jobs, or planning to do so in the future.

[snip][end]

Gotta have a debate about this as well. "Globalization" seems hard to agree on - what it means, what to do about it - but at least we know it involves other human beings.

But nobody, not even somebody other than Trump, can stop automation, either, especially without a plan to do anything about it, either.

He at least talked about globalization, even if with rudimentary misunderstanding or just plain obfuscation. He mentioned nothing about automation. And its impacts on the future of employment and wages can't be ignored.

_________________
-- Tis an ill wind that blows no minds.
Malaclypse the Younger


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Amazon Go
PostPosted: Sun Dec 11, 2016 8:32 pm 
Offline
Policy Wonk
User avatar

Joined: Tue Jun 30, 2015 10:41 pm
Posts: 2119
Location: Oregon
In the 50's, this would be about a science fiction novel...maybe written by Asimov.

_________________
"There are but two parties now: Republicans . . . and Americans." -Keith Olbermann


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Amazon Go
PostPosted: Sun Dec 11, 2016 8:45 pm 
Offline
Board Emeritus
User avatar

Joined: Tue Jun 07, 2011 12:07 am
Posts: 14990
thats gross and disgusting.
who the hell wants all food that comes in containers..? bleh.
they dont hire anyone so who cleans up the rotten food? or do they just hire slaves
for behind the scenes, and worse still, maybe nothing in there is fresh.

i say bleck.

im amazed at the marketing to millennials....its as tho they use gadgets to watch tv while
theyre walking or skydiving(if so lucky) or while working which means their tv is that important
to them theyll watch it alllll day long while they scarf up some food product made just for
those who stumble around with gadgets in hand watching tv shows and waiting to buy the next
gadget and next cell phone...BUT wait, what will they watch when the tv shows all get boring
or theyve stumbled enough times to wear body casts indefinitely...

notice how theyre selling 'virtual reality' hand helds this year?.....why its as tho there is nothing
left Outside to actually see or do and they hope to slip that reality right by the young consumer population.

id be pissed if i were a millennial. theyre trying to sucker them all into babies and buying shit
meanwhile the planet is roasting the remaining resources and humans as if no one notices.

_________________
Who are these...flag-sucking halfwits fleeced fooled by stupid little rich kids They speak for all that is cruel stupid
They are racists hate mongers I piss down the throats of these Nazis Im too old to worry whether they like it Fuck them.
HST.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Amazon Go
PostPosted: Sun Dec 11, 2016 10:41 pm 
Offline
Policy Wonk
User avatar

Joined: Fri Jan 08, 2016 9:37 am
Posts: 2240
Cant get over how vulnerable this type of technology makes the consumer. again orientation of technology shouldnt be ignored or called automation. its like the voter laws republicans put out.

automation isnt automatic it requires things like funding, will, having no counterbalance of powers, and legislation. these thing align at times and at others they dont, a lot of it is up to you and me.

_________________
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rqbHi_jDF-I


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Amazon Go
PostPosted: Mon Dec 12, 2016 9:36 am 
Online
Board Emeritus
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jul 02, 2015 6:57 pm
Posts: 8316
Location: Sunny South Florida
I agree policy can have an impact on the automation of jobs as well as globalization.

But we certainly can't have policy without discussion of the problem. That's what I seem to notice.

People say they don't want to see more loss of jobs, but nobody's talking about one of the other root causes. I know it's culturally verboten to be seen as a Luddite.

Trump didn't - but neither did his opponents - in fact, for the most part, neither did Bernie Sanders. Trade deals & globalization and their impact on jobs and wages, yes.

Technology, robotics, automation - no. Nobody's bringing up this subject. Is it because it doesn't involve human scapegoats we can easily blame?

I'm not saying this couldn't be a good thing, in some areas. Maybe we should be sending robots down into mines rather than human beings getting black lung disease. It's probably better to have robots disarming IED's than humans.

But, nobody's really going to be serious about dealing with unemployment, and its causes, if they don't want to deal with this.

_________________
-- Tis an ill wind that blows no minds.
Malaclypse the Younger


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Amazon Go
PostPosted: Mon Dec 12, 2016 9:46 am 
Offline
Board Emeritus
User avatar

Joined: Wed Jun 08, 2011 11:53 am
Posts: 10729
I agree policy can have an impact on the automation of jobs as well as globalization.

But we certainly can't have policy without discussion of the problem. That's what I seem to notice.

People say they don't want to see more loss of jobs, but nobody's talking about one of the other root causes. I know it's culturally verboten to be seen as a Luddite.

Trump didn't - but neither did his opponents - in fact, for the most part, neither did Bernie Sanders. Trade deals & globalization and their impact on jobs and wages, yes.

Technology, robotics, automation - no. Nobody's bringing up this subject. Is it because it doesn't involve human scapegoats we can easily blame?

I'm not saying this couldn't be a good thing, in some areas. Maybe we should be sending robots down into mines rather than human beings getting black lung disease. It's probably better to have robots disarming IED's than humans.

But, nobody's really going to be serious about dealing with unemployment, and its causes, if they don't want to deal with this.



I have known for a while that most jobs simply wont exist soon, or if not most many as in mfg and service. And the only way to make sure people arent in poverty conditions is to implement more socialism, clearly. There is no other answer. Either let the rich keep all the money they have stolen from us via capitalism, or dont.

YOu will have to have make-work almost, or Nordic country style socialism, or you will have mass poverty.

Of course with trump and his defenders and supporters we will have mass chaos, poverty, death, war, environmental damage and that will happen in a couple months, so this seems rather academic, actually.

_________________
Treason is now officially OK with the GOP; that is the end of the country, folks, plain and simple.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Amazon Go
PostPosted: Mon Dec 12, 2016 9:58 am 
Offline
Board Emeritus
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jul 04, 2011 2:01 pm
Posts: 6324
Location: Maine U.S.A
A novel I discuss on YOutube talks about this type of automation and what happens as a result.

The novel is called "2045: A Story of Our Future" by Peter Seidel. I think Seidel called it and this is our future if you consider we will stay on the path we're currently on.

The hero of the story falls into a coma and wakes up several years later and sees the future, a future with massive unemployment. Businesses likes retail were forced to bring back old jobs in order to sell product because there weren't enough jobs to sustain them, hence people stopped shopping because of unemployment. Massive department stores (or store) used automation which lead to massive job loss (go to 2:10 in the video)

Our hero sees how homegrown businesses were bought out by one of the big 8, or those corps that own everything, including his own lumber business. (I think that number is actually smaller in reality). Foreign companies took over and built infrastructure (Gee, can you imagine electing someone with foreign investments who brings in foreign companies to build infrastructure? Nah, can't happen here!)

This also lead to geopolitical and environmental catastrophes...


www.youtube.com Video from : www.youtube.com

_________________
Lest we forget
Image


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Amazon Go
PostPosted: Mon Dec 12, 2016 3:57 pm 
Offline
Policy Wonk
User avatar

Joined: Fri Jan 08, 2016 9:37 am
Posts: 2240
ProfessorX wrote:
I agree policy can have an impact on the automation of jobs as well as globalization.

But we certainly can't have policy without discussion of the problem. That's what I seem to notice.

People say they don't want to see more loss of jobs, but nobody's talking about one of the other root causes. I know it's culturally verboten to be seen as a Luddite.

Trump didn't - but neither did his opponents - in fact, for the most part, neither did Bernie Sanders. Trade deals & globalization and their impact on jobs and wages, yes.

Technology, robotics, automation - no. Nobody's bringing up this subject. Is it because it doesn't involve human scapegoats we can easily blame?

I'm not saying this couldn't be a good thing, in some areas. Maybe we should be sending robots down into mines rather than human beings getting black lung disease. It's probably better to have robots disarming IED's than humans.

But, nobody's really going to be serious about dealing with unemployment, and its causes, if they don't want to deal with this.


The thing about automation and technology is that its all slow and awkward and somewhat ridiculous. at times it is new and seems great even quite shocking at how much improved it is but we find out 6 months later that its pretty cheesy.

This is my atari 2600 theory that no matter what time period we are living in its the most advanced technologicly up to that point, it was in when the atari 2600 first came out what an improvement that was over pong. how bout those big screen televisions that took 3 people to move around they were very nice, just...... not nice to move around especially up and down stairs. so every new invention or automation is the atari 2600 all over again in stages.

sending robots into mines seems a friendlier orientation of technology than one like amazon having direct access to charge ones bank account while having no clerk available to take care in the event of bogus charges or overcharges, seems a hefty bunch of hurdles to the consumer to get things corrected if Amazon decides to behave badly. but I would also wonder how much coal robots would have to mine to produce and power robots to mine coal.

how do we grade automation is it friendly, neutral, or hostile orientation? is it being used like steel dumping just temporarily to rid us of our protective supports and infrastructures permanently? if the new I phone shot battery acid in your ear for missing a payment would you still buy it?

_________________
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rqbHi_jDF-I


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Amazon Go
PostPosted: Mon Dec 12, 2016 4:44 pm 
Offline
Policy Wonk
User avatar

Joined: Sat Jul 04, 2015 5:46 pm
Posts: 1436
Uber has a self driving car pilot program going on in Pittsburgh.

Trucking companies have been working on self-driving technology to get rid of those pesky Teamsters.

_________________
Socialism! That's that word that your politicians use that it's so nasty. Socialism. Other places just call it sharing. It's a good thing! You just share and give some to the less fortunate. -Fred Eaglesmith


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Amazon Go
PostPosted: Mon Dec 12, 2016 5:25 pm 
Offline
Board Emeritus
User avatar

Joined: Wed Jun 08, 2011 11:53 am
Posts: 10729
Uber has a self driving car pilot program going on in Pittsburgh.

Trucking companies have been working on self-driving technology to get rid of those pesky Teamsters.

Ultimately labor will cease to exist, and unless we are willing to be far more socialist than we are now, well just rent the Schwarzenegger movie about that planet without air, forgot name

Total Recall maybe

_________________
Treason is now officially OK with the GOP; that is the end of the country, folks, plain and simple.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Amazon Go
PostPosted: Sat Dec 17, 2016 10:46 am 
Offline
Board Emeritus

Joined: Mon Jun 06, 2011 10:27 pm
Posts: 6703
Location: miles from nowhere
Technology isn't hostile although the jury is still way out on ai.

What technology now is, is labor destroying. I am sorry to harp on this but labor will continue to be decimated as manufacturing continues to shrink. So-called service jobs are shrinking as prof's post notes. On a side note we also will continue to see consolidation of companies as well.

The servant/superstar economy is here and due to the nature of capital seeking maximized returns to the exclusion of all else the end result will not be pretty. Most of us will not be here to see endgame but our kids, grandkids and their kids will be.

And it won't be pretty.

Edit-

There a whole host of things that are not discussed.

What does development mean? What does underdeveloped mean? What is the impact of corruption? Is there such a thing as commons? Why do the free market theologians demand that the commons must end in tragedy when in fact the tragedy of the commons is the result of self-interest? Why is labor viewed only as an input to be controlled when in fact all production must be viewed as being consumed by someone somewhere?

The failure of economic theology is writ large but ignored. And we are seeing the fruits of ignoring it.

_________________
bird's theorem-"we the people" are stupid.

"No one is so foolish as to choose war over peace. In peace sons bury their fathers, in war fathers bury their sons." - Herodotus


Last edited by bird on Sat Dec 17, 2016 11:42 am, edited 1 time in total.

Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Amazon Go
PostPosted: Sat Dec 17, 2016 11:03 am 
Online
Board Emeritus
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jul 02, 2015 6:57 pm
Posts: 8316
Location: Sunny South Florida
Technology isn't hostile although the jury is still way out on ai.


Well, I often see the assertion that technology is a neutral force, it all depends on how it is used.

But that's ignoring the fact that technology is designed, and those designs often contain implicit assumptions by the designers about "how" it should be used and why.

And given that most of our technology is made by corporations ... certain implicit assumptions follow.

The impacts of technology on society can be positive or negative -- however, it's not that certain predispositions aren't already in play given who controls how it is implemented, and who controls where and how it is deployed.

I do admit there is this constant repurposing of technology throughout history that makes the story fascinating. Alexander Graham Bell mostly thought the telephone would be used for listening to musical recordings. Boy, he sure misunderstood what people would really want to do with it (talk to each other). This Internet you and I are using was mostly originally designed to make sure the military's command and control capabilities (DARPANet) could survive a nuclear war. And now here we are using it for something else.

Quote:
What technology now is, is labor destroying.


Yeah, and people will say, "sure, all the horse and buggy guys are out of work, but they're driving trucks now". It's just not axiomatic that even though automation may create new jobs as it is displacing others, that those jobs will be more numerous or well paying. This is an assumption. Is it backed by empirical evidence?

It's the same problem with trade. Yes, it's true, free trade also unleashes Schumpeter's "creative destruction" which eliminates old jobs and creates new ones. But again, the question. Are the new jobs as numerous and as well paying as the old ones? If not -- increased un and underemployment. More McJobs.

I would say the economic reality is matching what people predicted about the effects of free trade and automation - stagnant wages, growing inequality. Although the third thing that I think correlates most closely with this (and 4th) is the financialization of the economy, and de-unionization of the private sector.

_________________
-- Tis an ill wind that blows no minds.
Malaclypse the Younger


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Amazon Go
PostPosted: Sat Dec 17, 2016 10:31 pm 
Offline
Board Emeritus

Joined: Mon Jun 06, 2011 10:27 pm
Posts: 6703
Location: miles from nowhere

Well, I often see the assertion that technology is a neutral force, it all depends on how it is used.

But that's ignoring the fact that technology is designed, and those designs often contain implicit assumptions by the designers about "how" it should be used and why.

And given that most of our technology is made by corporations ... certain implicit assumptions follow.

The impacts of technology on society can be positive or negative -- however, it's not that certain predispositions aren't already in play given who controls how it is implemented, and who controls where and how it is deployed.

I do admit there is this constant repurposing of technology throughout history that makes the story fascinating. Alexander Graham Bell mostly thought the telephone would be used for listening to musical recordings. Boy, he sure misunderstood what people would really want to do with it (talk to each other). This Internet you and I are using was mostly originally designed to make sure the military's command and control capabilities (DARPANet) could survive a nuclear war. And now here we are using it for something else.



Yeah, and people will say, "sure, all the horse and buggy guys are out of work, but they're driving trucks now". It's just not axiomatic that even though automation may create new jobs as it is displacing others, that those jobs will be more numerous or well paying. This is an assumption. Is it backed by empirical evidence?

It's the same problem with trade. Yes, it's true, free trade also unleashes Schumpeter's "creative destruction" which eliminates old jobs and creates new ones. But again, the question. Are the new jobs as numerous and as well paying as the old ones? If not -- increased un and underemployment. More McJobs.

I would say the economic reality is matching what people predicted about the effects of free trade and automation - stagnant wages, growing inequality. Although the third thing that I think correlates most closely with this (and 4th) is the financialization of the economy, and de-unionization of the private sector.
i won't deny the possibility of technology having non-neutral belief structures behind its creation. unfortunately technology combined with financialization and deep level globalization has many things that are either unintended or that those who wield the levers do not care about. i seem to recall niall ferguson bleating about how the west gave africa the example of democratic government and it was their fault for screwing up. in actuality what africa learned in many instances was corruption, the corruption implicit in colonization. thus we have had forever the so-called developing world which i choose to call the not-allowed-to-develop world. and as i noted what does development mean? western definitions for eastern and southern cultures and peoples?

as for the jobs they are not going to be anywhere near what was created in the long 19th century. people have refrigerators, washers, dryers, cars and the like. technology has directly impacted the manufacturing of these items thereby displacing workers. and of course capital through capitalism seeks new markets (read: new areas to exploit) as home base market areas become saturated. in addition once needs are met wants must be created in order for capital to stave off decreasing profit and return levels in home base markets. this is similar to veblen's conspicuous consumption with a major difference. the "wealth" which is used and displayed isn't wealth but debt.

the question becomes as capitalism seeks to stave off its own crisis of legitimacy by delegitimizing institutions including democratic institutions what will be the end result? people on the right bitched about the left using identity politics. what card did trump play but identity politics? the end result becomes regressive identarian collectives (borrowed from Streeck). THAT is extremely dangerous.

_________________
bird's theorem-"we the people" are stupid.

"No one is so foolish as to choose war over peace. In peace sons bury their fathers, in war fathers bury their sons." - Herodotus


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 13 posts ] 

All times are UTC - 5 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group