Is This Why Conservative Whites Only Scream Party of Lincoln At African Americans but Never at Native Americans??

News and events of the day
Post Reply
User avatar
carmenjonze
Posts: 9614
Joined: Mon Oct 25, 2021 3:06 am

Is This Why Conservative Whites Only Scream Party of Lincoln At African Americans but Never at Native Americans??

Post by carmenjonze »

I wouldn't either, if I were them.
__________

Ruth H. Hopkins (Red Road Woman)
@Ruth_HHopkins

On December 26, 1862, 38 Dakota warriors were hanged in Mankato, MN under orders of President Abraham Lincoln in the largest mass execution in U.S. history.

They built a special scaffold to hang them all at once & made Dakota women, children & elders watch as the crowd cheered.

Image

https://twitter.com/Ruth_HHopkins/statu ... 0080460804
__________

This is the biggest mass execution in the US, on record.

Not quite a year later, this guy would declare Thanksgiving a national holiday - History.com Editors.

Clearly, homeboy did not have Native American-anything in mind when he did so. :problem:

Thanks a lot, Repbulicans. Genocidal WSs.
________________________________

The way to right wrongs is to
Shine the light of truth on them.

~ Ida B. Wells
________________________________
User avatar
sam lefthand
Posts: 678
Joined: Sun Oct 24, 2021 1:58 pm

Re: Is This Why Conservative Whites Only Scream Party of Lincoln At African Americans but Never at Native Americans??

Post by sam lefthand »

Did Abraham Lincoln Order the Execution of 38 Dakota Fighters?

https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/lincoln-dakota/
That claim is largely accurate, but it’s also misleading; it omits to mention that although Abraham Lincoln did approve 39 death sentences (one of the condemned men was ultimately spared), he also prevented the hangings of 264 other Native Americans by commuting their death sentences, in the same order. It also fails to make it clear that the death sentences did not originate with Lincoln. Rather, the executions were ordered by a military commission and sent to the president, who had the legal authority to approve or decline to approve any or all of the sentences.


A long detailed article at the link:
[Major General John Pope] warned [Lincoln] that the people of Minnesota, perhaps combined with some of the soldiers, would take matters into their own hands and kill “all the Indians — old men, women, and children,” if the President did not allow all the executions to go forward.

If the President proved reluctant to decide, he suggested, the condemned could be turned over to the state government. Minnesota Governor Ramsey left no doubt what decision he would make if given the opportunity, writing to Lincoln to urge execution of all the condemned. A great public outcry arose in Minnesota in response to reports that Lincoln might not carry out the full sentence of the military commission. The Stillwater, Minnesota Messenger demanded extermination of the Dakota: “DEATH TO THE BARBARIANS! is the sentiment of our people.”‘

Minnesota’s Senator Morton Wilkinson and Representatives Cyrus Aldrich and William Windom wrote to Lincoln reciting stories of rapes and mutilation “well known to our people” and protesting any decision to pardon or reprieve the Dakota. If the President did not permit the executions, they said, “the outraged people of Minnesota would dispose of these wretches without law. These two peoples cannot live together. We do not wish to see mob law inaugurated in Minnesota, as it certainly will be, if you force the people to it.”
This part should be remembered and included. Lincoln wasn't alone in a vacuum. Citizens of that time deserve criticism as well.
User avatar
carmenjonze
Posts: 9614
Joined: Mon Oct 25, 2021 3:06 am

Re: Is This Why Conservative Whites Only Scream Party of Lincoln At African Americans but Never at Native Americans??

Post by carmenjonze »

sam lefthand wrote: Sun Dec 26, 2021 11:00 pm This part should be remembered and included.
No one's forgotten it.
Lincoln wasn't alone in a vacuum. Citizens of that time deserve criticism as well.
:? "citizens of that time" include your illegal, white-aspirant relatives. So yes indeed, the entire country -- founded as it was on certain types reaping the benefits of Native American genocide and subjugating Black people into being somebody else's capital -- deserves criticism.

Does that include your relatives? Do they deserve criticism?

Anyway. We can observe that at the end of the day, that level of criticism makes court jesters to conservatism, such as yourself, very nervous, and very angry.

Besides, you never answered the question.

Is this why conservative whites never yell party of lincoln at Native Americans? If it is, can't say I blame them. Go ask your conservative white friends, and do let us know.
________________________________

The way to right wrongs is to
Shine the light of truth on them.

~ Ida B. Wells
________________________________
User avatar
ProfX
Posts: 4087
Joined: Tue Nov 02, 2021 3:15 pm
Location: Earth

Re: Is This Why Conservative Whites Only Scream Party of Lincoln At African Americans but Never at Native Americans??

Post by ProfX »

Yeah, history is complicated, and so are historical figures.

Lincoln, up until the Emancipation Proclamation (and there's some debate about possibly after), was a heavy advocate of what could be called "colonization" - essentially doing a "Liberia" for all the slaves in America - sending them back to Africa. Or at least most.

https://www.essentialcivilwarcurriculum ... ation.html

Now, I'm not saying he advocated forcibly removing all slaves back there or anything like that. But it was a quasi-racist but largely paternalistic view that they'd be "better off" going back to Africa than remaining in the U.S. I call it quasi-racist because part of this worldview DID appear to include the view that due to their lack of ... "capacities" ... they might not fully be able to integrate and assimilate into American society.

To be clear, though, as that article does, there were many abolitionists going back to the 1850s arguing for the same thing, so it wasn't an unknown viewpoint.

Yeah, he's not always so popular among Native Americans. Another reality.

https://washingtonmonthly.com/magazine/ ... americans/

As that article sorta says, he wasn't particularly worse on Native policy than previous POTUSes; but not really any better. And in particular it was his pushing of railroad expansion that really most negatively affected the Plains tribes.

I've been on several reservations. Never seen his portrait in the tribal offices.
"Don't believe every quote attributed to people on the Internet" -- Abraham Lincoln :D
User avatar
sam lefthand
Posts: 678
Joined: Sun Oct 24, 2021 1:58 pm

Re: Is This Why Conservative Whites Only Scream Party of Lincoln At African Americans but Never at Native Americans??

Post by sam lefthand »

ProfX wrote: Mon Dec 27, 2021 8:40 am ...snip...

I've been on several reservations. Never seen his portrait in the tribal offices.
I don't know how that last observation relates to anything about this topic. I can only recall one instance of his portrait being on display in addition to the current President, the normal state being that only the current President's portrait will be displayed in government offices.

Tribal offices not being Federal, State, or County government offices which are prone to display the portraits of any of our Presidents, past or present.

That lone special case insofar as my awareness where Lincoln's portrait is displayed is in the Mariposa county court house which was built during the time that Lincoln was in office, and his portrait hanging there is that original portrait that was hung on the wall during that historical time.

The court house here is the oldest court house west of the Mississippi river, and my county is referred to as being "the mother of all counties," because it was the first county established in California.
User avatar
sam lefthand
Posts: 678
Joined: Sun Oct 24, 2021 1:58 pm

Re: Is This Why Conservative Whites Only Scream Party of Lincoln At African Americans but Never at Native Americans??

Post by sam lefthand »

carmenjonze wrote: Sun Dec 26, 2021 11:16 pm .
:Ignore:
User avatar
carmenjonze
Posts: 9614
Joined: Mon Oct 25, 2021 3:06 am

Re: Is This Why Conservative Whites Only Scream Party of Lincoln At African Americans but Never at Native Americans??

Post by carmenjonze »

sam lefthand wrote: Mon Dec 27, 2021 2:36 pm
Go join your white con friends in screaming party of lincoln at African Americans, but never at Native Americans.
________________________________

The way to right wrongs is to
Shine the light of truth on them.

~ Ida B. Wells
________________________________
User avatar
carmenjonze
Posts: 9614
Joined: Mon Oct 25, 2021 3:06 am

Re: Is This Why Conservative Whites Only Scream Party of Lincoln At African Americans but Never at Native Americans??

Post by carmenjonze »

ProfX wrote: Mon Dec 27, 2021 8:40 amBut it was a quasi-racist but largely paternalistic view that they'd be "better off" going back to Africa than remaining in the U.S. I call it quasi-racist because part of this worldview DID appear to include the view that due to their lack of ... "capacities" ... they might not fully be able to integrate and assimilate into American society.
Yes that is racist as hell, no getting around it.
To be clear, though, as that article does, there were many abolitionists going back to the 1850s arguing for the same thing, so it wasn't an unknown viewpoint.
Being anti-slavery did not mean pro-equality, or even care for those enslaved. A lot of those people were also racist as hell.

They have counterparts in 2021 in supposed liberals with anti-Black, anti-minority-in-general, misogynist, anti-immigrant, ladder-pulling worldviews.
________________________________

The way to right wrongs is to
Shine the light of truth on them.

~ Ida B. Wells
________________________________
User avatar
ProfX
Posts: 4087
Joined: Tue Nov 02, 2021 3:15 pm
Location: Earth

Re: Is This Why Conservative Whites Only Scream Party of Lincoln At African Americans but Never at Native Americans??

Post by ProfX »

sam lefthand wrote: Mon Dec 27, 2021 2:34 pm I don't know how that last observation relates to anything about this topic.
So, Sam, we are just anonymous strangers on the Internet, so you don't have to believe anything I say.

However, I am not lying, I have been in the tribal offices of several reservations (notably Seminole, Hopi, and Lakota) and one of them had a portrait of Richard Nixon hanging in the office. BTW, I know why.

Therefore, everything you just said is very interesting, but I HAVE seen portraits of past presidents there. Hence, my observation.

P.S. I didn't go into, but I do happen to know, what some Native folks think about Lincoln, and it matches the article.
"Don't believe every quote attributed to people on the Internet" -- Abraham Lincoln :D
User avatar
sam lefthand
Posts: 678
Joined: Sun Oct 24, 2021 1:58 pm

Re: Is This Why Conservative Whites Only Scream Party of Lincoln At African Americans but Never at Native Americans??

Post by sam lefthand »

ProfX wrote: Mon Dec 27, 2021 3:16 pm So, Sam, we are just anonymous strangers on the Internet, so you don't have to believe anything I say.

However, I am not lying, I have been in the tribal offices of several reservations (notably Seminole, Hopi, and Lakota) and one of them had a portrait of Richard Nixon hanging in the office. BTW, I know why.

Therefore, everything you just said is very interesting, but I HAVE seen portraits of past presidents there. Hence, my observation.

P.S. I didn't go into, but I do happen to know, what some Native folks think about Lincoln, and it matches the article.
No doubt, some Native Americans don't like any past Presidents. Some like Nixon. A bigger issue to Navajos, people I am close to, is that Lincoln was President when they were subjected to their long walk which killed a lot more of their people than that Army execution of Dakotas did.

Contrast: Lincoln and the newly created Republican Party was the most progressive movement afoot in the US at that time. Democrats of that era would not have had my support. Republicans and Lincoln were as good as it got. But now that party of Lincoln is long gone, but it should be remembered for what it was.

Context: Lincoln was pretty busy with a pretty bad civil war at the time. Having a threat of Minnesota as a state rebelling at that same time probably played into that compromise that he made with regard to those executions of the native Americans. He had 39 executed while sparing 264, that is a compromise that might have made a difference in a larger civil war had Minnesota rebelled as well.

Context: There is a memorial to Lincoln in Washington DC, it memorializes him but it also speaks of our past for it's good elements and of bad elements, and of the not entirely perfection. . I do not support razing it or the memory of the man in the name of current days thought, for tomorrow will be a different day with a different set of thoughts.

I did support cutting up that statue of Lee however because it was a later day Jim Crow creation, a latter day push for bringing back the past, and it didn't reflect elements of history as does the Lincoln memorial.

:|

He was a not perfect man for a not perfect time. Understanding him is more important than being angry with him for not being perfect. Not entirely good, he was just pretty darned good.
User avatar
carmenjonze
Posts: 9614
Joined: Mon Oct 25, 2021 3:06 am

Re: Is This Why Conservative Whites Only Scream Party of Lincoln At African Americans but Never at Native Americans??

Post by carmenjonze »

Today in Great White Father:
sam lefthand wrote: Mon Dec 27, 2021 4:21 pmRepublicans and Lincoln were as good as it got.
Not good enough. That’s not for you to determine.
But now that party of Lincoln is long gone, but it should be remembered for what it was.



Lincoln was pretty busy with a pretty bad civil war at the time.
Nice try at excusing the inexcusable by changing the subject, but here’s a pro tip for beginners: “party of Lincoln” is mythmaking, sloganeering, and propaganda, geared to pander to the one voting bloc your white supremacist friends wish to eliminate.

Same for “MLK was a Republican.” They, like you, are exactly the people MLK battled the hardest.

Our voting bloc should not even exist, to them. Perhaps that’s why you wish to avoid the original question: how come conservative whites never trot out Lincoln to pander to Native Americans.
There is a memorial to Lincoln in Washington DC, it memorializes him but it also speaks of our past for it's good elements and of bad elements, and of the not entirely perfection. . I do not support razing it …
Way off base, and predictably knee jerk and paranoid.

This topic has nothing at all to do with monuments of Lincoln, including whatever memorial you’re talking about.
He was a not perfect man for a not perfect time. Understanding him is more important than being angry with him for not being perfect.
This is such a mind-deadeningly stupid straw man.

Perfection is not the issue here, nor is perfection required of anyone.

More importantly, it’s not up to you to tell Native Americans, Black Americans, or anyone else how they must remember presidents. Whenever you try it, be prepared for your personal white-paternalist standards to be immediately rejected.
Last edited by carmenjonze on Mon Dec 27, 2021 5:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.
________________________________

The way to right wrongs is to
Shine the light of truth on them.

~ Ida B. Wells
________________________________
User avatar
ProfX
Posts: 4087
Joined: Tue Nov 02, 2021 3:15 pm
Location: Earth

Re: Is This Why Conservative Whites Only Scream Party of Lincoln At African Americans but Never at Native Americans??

Post by ProfX »

sam lefthand wrote: Mon Dec 27, 2021 4:21 pm Contrast: Lincoln and the newly created Republican Party was the most progressive movement afoot in the US at that time.
Yes and no. Even the recent Spielberg movie about him - let's call it a dramady, not a documentary - gets into this.

There were more progressive forces in the Republican party - namely Thaddeus Stevens and the Radical Republicans - I guess we could say more or less they were to his "left" - they kind of despised him as the "great compromiser" (this is in the movie). He's played by Tommy Lee Jones.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thaddeus_Stevens

That said, I wouldn't look to him without a critical eye either -- the movie glosses over his membership in Nativist and anti-Masonic movements.

As for the Democrats, well, there were regional differences. The Southern Dixiecrats - well they were what they were, they were pro-slavery at the time, then went pro-Jim Crow after Reconstruction. But some Northern Democrats were pro-abolition. The party then was not unified either.

We all know after the 1960s both parties realigned: see Southern Strategy.
I do not support razing it
Neither do I. And I don't know many "in today's time" who are calling to do that, either.

I also don't want the Jefferson Memorial taken down either. But I can't speak for anybody but me.
"Don't believe every quote attributed to people on the Internet" -- Abraham Lincoln :D
User avatar
carmenjonze
Posts: 9614
Joined: Mon Oct 25, 2021 3:06 am

Re: Is This Why Conservative Whites Only Scream Party of Lincoln At African Americans but Never at Native Americans??

Post by carmenjonze »

ProfX wrote: Mon Dec 27, 2021 5:06 pm Yes and no. Even the recent Spielberg movie about him - let's call it a dramady, not a documentary - gets into this.

There were more progressive forces in the Republican party - namely Thaddeus Stevens and the Radical Republicans - I guess we could say more or less they were to his "left" - they kind of despised him as the "great compromiser" (this is in the movie). He's played by Tommy Lee Jones.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thaddeus_Stevens
One of my favorite replies to these Republicans who yell party of lincoln is, hey how come you guys never talk about the Radical Republicans? Or the Mississippi Freedom Democratic Party? Or the States Rights Democratic Party?

viewtopic.php?p=5952#p5952
viewtopic.php?p=6659#p6659

Sadly, none can ever answer.
We all know after the 1960s both parties realigned: see Southern Strategy.
Fact is, both parties contain and have contained elements that are damaging to African Americans, immigrants, migrants, Native Americans, Asian Americans, Middle Easterners, and everyone who could be construed as not-white.

Today’s Republicans are openly aligned with the push to either maintain what's left of white sovereignty, or simply just re-establish it.

Today’s Dems are the better choice of two, but both parties are sopping wet with white supremacist histories.
Neither do I. And I don't know many "in today's time" who are calling to do that, either.

I also don't want the Jefferson Memorial taken down either. But I can't speak for anybody but me.
Whatever Lincoln monument he’s referring to is a straw man attempt to avoid the topic and continue defending the indefensible.
Last edited by carmenjonze on Mon Dec 27, 2021 8:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.
________________________________

The way to right wrongs is to
Shine the light of truth on them.

~ Ida B. Wells
________________________________
User avatar
Libertas
Posts: 6468
Joined: Sun Oct 24, 2021 5:16 pm

Re: Is This Why Conservative Whites Only Scream Party of Lincoln At African Americans but Never at Native Americans??

Post by Libertas »

Yes, both parties, and the amazing thing is the GOP is so bad they make the DNC look like saints, which they aint.

GOP openly says they will kill anyone who does not support them or trump, at least that is what they all said on January 6 and I see nothing that has changed since them.
I sigh in your general direction.
User avatar
carmenjonze
Posts: 9614
Joined: Mon Oct 25, 2021 3:06 am

Re: Is This Why Conservative Whites Only Scream Party of Lincoln At African Americans but Never at Native Americans??

Post by carmenjonze »

Libertas wrote: Mon Dec 27, 2021 7:28 pm Yes, both parties, and the amazing thing is the GOP is so bad they make the DNC look like saints, which they aint.

GOP openly says they will kill anyone who does not support them or trump, at least that is what they all said on January 6 and I see nothing that has changed since them.
Conservatives are eliminationists.
________________________________

The way to right wrongs is to
Shine the light of truth on them.

~ Ida B. Wells
________________________________
User avatar
carmenjonze
Posts: 9614
Joined: Mon Oct 25, 2021 3:06 am

Re: Is This Why Conservative Whites Only Scream Party of Lincoln At African Americans but Never at Native Americans??

Post by carmenjonze »

sam lefthand wrote: Mon Dec 27, 2021 2:36 pm:Ignore:
You’re not ignoring me any more than I am ignoring you, so-called moderate.
________________________________

The way to right wrongs is to
Shine the light of truth on them.

~ Ida B. Wells
________________________________
Post Reply