Bail Reform - 'Could've been burying my son'

[Bludogdem]

“WAKEFIELD, Bronx (WABC) -- A 13-year-old boy was shot in the neck while walking to school in the Bronx Tuesday morning, and his mother and sister spoke out exclusively to Eyewitness News.”


“ Wiggs is charged with attempted murder, assault, criminal possession of a weapon, reckless endangerment and menacing.

James said Khamani will celebrate his 14th birthday on Monday.

"Straight home after school, I have no problems with him," she said. "He's just a video game fanatic or on his phone, that's all he does."

Police say Wiggs was arrested for criminal possession of a loaded firearm in 2019 while he was still on parole for a 2010 gun arrest in Harlem.

https://abc7ny.com/teen-shot-13-year-ol ... /11264613/

On February 24, 2019, authorities say he broke into a vehicle in East Harlem and was in possession of a loaded .38 firearm, as well as drugs, at the time of his arrest.

That case has yet to go to trial, with his next court date scheduled for January.

On April 22, 2010, he was arrested for criminal possession of a controlled substance and was found to be in possession of a .32 caliber Smith and Wesson.

He has had another arrest during his time on parole, in 2018, for grand larceny.

He was conditionally released in 2015 on parole, which set to expire next April.

Police officials said he should never have been out on the street.

"You're talking about a 13 year old boy here going to school," Lehr said. "And he winds up having to have this traumatic experience with somebody who's out on parole for firearm, out on bail for a different firearm, and today, he shoots this boy in the neck."

Wiggs has spent a lot of time at Bronx criminal court. But he wasn't there Tuesday night because he is instead having a psych consult.

When he is eventually arraigned on second degree attempted murder, he will be eligible for bail. Again.“


Bail reform. Just more ammunition for the opposition. We’re making it easy.

https://abc7ny.com/teen-shot-13-year-ol ... /11264613/

[ProfX]

I don't believe in argument by anecdote, but this seems to be a preferred method for others.

"Reform" is one of those mysterious words that really, honestly, mean nothing in themselves. Everyone uses the word, but they may not be meaning the same things.

Both left and right say they want to "reform" Facebook/Meta/Zuckerland, but they appear to mean different things.
Both left and right say they want to "reform" the legal system, but are definitely pursuing different objectives.

When you say you are for "bail reform" - what are you posing as the problem, and then what are you suggesting the solution. I gotta know more than just that you "believe in reform". That tells me nothing.

https://www.aclu.org/issues/smart-justice/bail-reform

On any given day in 2015, roughly 700,000 people were locked up in local jails. The majority of them had not been convicted of a crime.

After an arrest — wrongful or not — a person’s ability to leave jail and return home to fight the charges depends on money. That's because, in most states, people are required to pay cash bail. Originally, bail was supposed to make sure people return to court to face charges against them. But instead, the money bail system has morphed into widespread wealth-based incarceration.

Poorer Americans and people of color often can't afford to come up with money for bail, leaving them stuck in jail.

[snip][end]

I get why we have bail. There's got to be some penalty to "bailing out" on facing a court of law for your (alleged) crimes. So we don't have to send Dawg the Bounty Hunter after you. Put up a huge wad of cash you don't get back unless you appear. Makes sense ...

But, come on, the way the system works now, rich people get to not sit in Club Fed until their trial, whereas poor people are stuck there, even if wrongfully convicted, because ... that's the system.

The ACLU doesn't get into how to solve this. I don't know if the answer is eliminating cash bail. There are other things out there. Different ways we could handle this.

Is noticing it seems unfair, and maybe it could be done differently, a losing issue? Shame if that's the case.

[bradman]

https://www.yahoo.com/news/gofundme-pul ... 00328.html
GoFundMe pulls page aimed at raising $5 million bail for Waukesha Christmas parade suspect

A GoFundMe page aimed at raising $5 million bail for the Wisconsin man accused of plowing his SUV through a Christmas parade in Waukesha has been pulled from the platform.

Darrell Brooks Jr. was charged with five counts of first-degree intentional homicide following the holiday event on Sunday. Five people were pronounced dead on the scene while a sixth victim, 8-year-old Jackson Sparks, died days later in an area hospital.

During a court appearance on Tuesday, Brooks was ordered held on $5 million bail — sparking swift backlash given prosecutors previously admitted Brooks was only able to rip through the parade route after being sprung on an “inappropriately low” bond.

At the time of the parade massacre, Brooks was out on $1,000 bail after he was arrested earlier this month for allegedly attempting to run over the mother of his child with his car.

According to screengrabs first shared by Law Enforcement Today, the bail also spawned a fundraising effort on Brooks’ behalf. Set up by a person going by the name James Norton, the page insisted Brooks was a victim of a “racist” justice system and used hashtags including #RacismIsReal and #BLM.

“On November 21st, 2021 our dear friend Darrell Brooks was arrested for allegedly driving his car into a parade, as someone who knows Darrell personally I can tell you that he would NEVER do such a thing and I know he is innocent of what he was charged with,” Norton wrote, per the screengrabs.

[sam lefthand]

https://www.yahoo.com/news/gofundme-pul ... 00328.html
GoFundMe pulls page aimed at raising $5 million bail for Waukesha Christmas parade suspect

My guess would be that the GoFundMe page was a hoax. The actor James Norton was in the news a few days ago, apparently he's going to be the next James Bond 007.



The thought crossed my mind that Norton Abrasives, a major grindstone manufacturing company, might be the reference for the name. It certainly was an abrasive act. However that company was founded by Franklin Norton in 1858.

[JoeMemphis]

I don't believe in argument by anecdote, but this seems to be a preferred method for others.

"Reform" is one of those mysterious words that really, honestly, mean nothing in themselves. Everyone uses the word, but they may not be meaning the same things.

Both left and right say they want to "reform" Facebook/Meta/Zuckerland, but they appear to mean different things.
Both left and right say they want to "reform" the legal system, but are definitely pursuing different objectives.

When you say you are for "bail reform" - what are you posing as the problem, and then what are you suggesting the solution. I gotta know more than just that you "believe in reform". That tells me nothing.

https://www.aclu.org/issues/smart-justice/bail-reform

On any given day in 2015, roughly 700,000 people were locked up in local jails. The majority of them had not been convicted of a crime.

After an arrest — wrongful or not — a person’s ability to leave jail and return home to fight the charges depends on money. That's because, in most states, people are required to pay cash bail. Originally, bail was supposed to make sure people return to court to face charges against them. But instead, the money bail system has morphed into widespread wealth-based incarceration.

Poorer Americans and people of color often can't afford to come up with money for bail, leaving them stuck in jail.

[snip][end]

I get why we have bail. There's got to be some penalty to "bailing out" on facing a court of law for your (alleged) crimes. So we don't have to send Dawg the Bounty Hunter after you. Put up a huge wad of cash you don't get back unless you appear. Makes sense ...

But, come on, the way the system works now, rich people get to not sit in Club Fed until their trial, whereas poor people are stuck there, even if wrongfully convicted, because ... that's the system.

The ACLU doesn't get into how to solve this. I don't know if the answer is eliminating cash bail. There are other things out there. Different ways we could handle this.

Is noticing it seems unfair, and maybe it could be done differently, a losing issue? Shame if that's the case.

I think the overall mission for law enforcement and the judicial system is to produce or promote a safer community. I think doing so in as fair a manner as possible goes along with it. I’m sure there’s a better way to do this. I am not sure letting extremely disturbed people with multiple arrest out on bail makes sense. Seems like statistically we should be able to better predict who poses the greatest risk to the public. I get what you are saying about white collar criminals. It doesn’t seem fair. But if it’s your first non violent arrest and it’s not a aggravated case, bail makes sense. But if you have multiple arrests, maybe bail isn’t the route to go.

Dunno. But it seems we keep releasing the same violent people back out onto the streets to commit further crimes. That doesn’t make sense to me.

[ProfX]

I think the overall mission for law enforcement and the judicial system is to produce or promote a safer community. I think doing so in as fair a manner as possible goes along with it. I’m sure there’s a better way to do this. I am not sure letting extremely disturbed people with multiple arrest out on bail makes sense. Seems like statistically we should be able to better predict who poses the greatest risk to the public. I get what you are saying about white collar criminals. It doesn’t seem fair. But if it’s your first non violent arrest and it’s not a aggravated case, bail makes sense. But if you have multiple arrests, maybe bail isn’t the route to go.

Dunno. But it seems we keep releasing the same violent people back out onto the streets to commit further crimes. That doesn’t make sense to me.

Seems like there's a couple questions here.

I've read some sites on the bail reform movement, what some states have done ...

Should everybody be let out in bail? Dunno, you are innocent until proven guilty but if they are 99% certain you are an insane multiple axe murderer even before going to trial, maybe they shouldn't let you out on bail before. I agree with you those decisions should go through some kind of formal risk assessment. Past criminal history included. The problem seems to be this is being done very imperfectly.

Next question. Do you have to pay the whole amount upfront? Should it be a percentage upfront? Or how about this ... let's say we set your bail at, say, $20K but here's the deal. If you don't appear at trial, we collect it from you then. But if you do, nothing is collected from you. There are ways to set this up without sending Dawg the Bounty Hunter after you. It's a new electronic era and I can set something up to auto-collect $20K from your bank account unless a condition is met. Look, smart criminals probably could evade that, but it's an idea.

There could be other ways to make sure there is a cost to you if you don't appear at trial. Bearing in mind, of course, no matter what, you are a fugitive, and Dawg (or somebody) is coming after you ... eventually ... unless I guess it's not worth it.

The question is, should the so-far-not-yet-convicted person have to deal with all this cost upfront, or alternatively work with a private bail-bonds industry which is full of scummy people and practices? These to me are the questions for "bail reform". I don't get what upsets people so much about thinking about alternative ways to do this.

We seem to be holding a lot of poor people in prison awaiting trial for long periods of time who could well be innocent because they can't afford bail. Yes, I think that is a problem. Maybe they're found innocent at trial, grand, but they sat in prison for 2 years awaiting trial because they can't afford bail.

Does eliminating all bail altogether seem like the answer? Not necessarily, but there are other options.

[carmenjonze]

Bail reform. Just more ammunition for the opposition.

war on Christmas clarifying the 14th Amendment open borders Willie Horton CRT defund the police Barack HUSSEIN Obama forced busing trans girls in the bathroom

You are the opposition.

We’re

All 6 of you behind this account?

[Motor City]

war on Christmas clarifying the 14th Amendment open borders Willie Horton CRT defund the police Barack HUSSEIN Obama forced busing trans girls in the bathroom

You are the opposition.



All 6 of you behind this account?

Yea if they could only take off the gloves.... like being authoritarian is what we are lacking to get to peace and prosperity. Like the goal is for America to prove it is more depraved and violent and intolerant than anywhere else in the world so that we automatically win by default a world without crime.

Its like some who say they love the country all their focus is on pooping on its strengths of human rights and equal treatment under the law and I say that because that's what some did on January 6th they went to the capitol attacked it with violence, killed and maimed people including police and then pooped on the floor and smeared it on the walls.

[carmenjonze]

Yea if they could only take off the gloves.... like being authoritarian is what we are lacking to get to peace and prosperity. Like the goal is for America to prove it is more depraved and violent and intolerant than anywhere else in the world so that we automatically win by default a world without crime.

Its like some who say they love the country all their focus is on pooping on its strengths of human rights and equal treatment under the law and I say that because that's what some did on January 6th they went to the capitol attacked it with violence, killed and maimed people including police and then pooped on the floor and smeared it on the walls.

Guys like greengrass and these other cons around here still think anyone is afraid of their tacit threats and withholding of approval.

They’d do better to just say social and legal changes make them personally angry and nervous, instead of triangulating with elections that are a year away. :problem:

[Libertas]

war on Christmas clarifying the 14th Amendment open borders Willie Horton CRT defund the police Barack HUSSEIN Obama forced busing trans girls in the bathroom

You are the opposition.



All 6 of you behind this account?

6?
5?
2?
18?

We cant know for sure, can we...cuz, you know, liar.

[Motor City]

Guys like greengrass and these other cons around here still think anyone is afraid of their tacit threats and withholding of approval.

They’d do better to just say social and legal changes make them personally angry and nervous, instead of triangulating with elections that are a year away. :problem:

Probably is shaking their windows and rattling their walls

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jChI7DV2Avc

[carmenjonze]

6?
5?
2?
18?

We cant know for sure, can we...cuz, you know, liar.

Can't be trusted.

[sam lefthand]

Can't be trusted.

Can't be regarded as being coherent either.

[carmenjonze]

troll

[sam lefthand]

troll

King Lear Scene 13

Lear
It shall be done. I will arraign them straight.

[To Edgar] Come sit thou here most learned justice.

[To the Fool] Thou, sapient sir, sit here. No, you she foxes--

Edgar
Look where he stands and glares. Want'st thou eyes at troll-madam?

Come o'er the burn Bessy, to me.

The game of Troll-Madam



https://www.thehistoricgamesshop.co.uk/ ... Madam.html

Also known as Pigeon Hole, Bridgeboard, Nine Holes, The Hole, Trunkes, Small Trunkes.

Troll Madam appears in literature from the 1560’s, though was probably in existence in one form or another from much earlier. Ad hoc nine holes games were known to be played by children, as can be seen in Breughel’s painting Children’s Games (1560); and literature of the Elizabethan and Stuart periods suggests Troll Madam was viewed as a frivolous game played to amuse ladies. Shakespeare mentions it in The Winters Tale (1610).

Francis Willughby, in the mid seventeenth century, is the first to describe the board and the game played. Many names are associated with the board, some of which may refer to specific games. References continue up until the late nineteenth century.

[carmenjonze]

Cash bail and criminal justice reform urged at NAACP convention Monday - Baltimore Sun, 2017

Congressional civil rights leaders, including rising Democratic star Sen. Kamala Harris of California, called for national reform of cash bail and other criminal justice issues on Monday at the NAACP convention in Baltimore.

Harris, who was greeted with cheers of "Harris for President," urged reform of the cash bail system that she said preys on minorities and the poor.

"It's not only about criminal-justice reform," the former prosecutor said. "This is also a matter of economic justice, because the person who pays can get out."

She cited the example of a woman arrested for shoplifting. If a judge sets her bail at $20,000, a bondsman charges her $2,000 to post the bail, but without the cash she lingers behind bars in backlogged court system.

"She could sit in jail for weeks, months, possibly years," Harris told a crowded ballroom at the Baltimore Convention Center. "If the system is supposed to have blind justice, is it not an injustice that the person who can pay gets out of jail?"

Harris and other members of Congress presented their legislative priorities Monday highlighting the third day of the annual convention of the NAACP, the country's largest and oldest civil rights organization.

More than 5,000 people are expected to attend the five-day conference, which returned to Baltimore for the first time in 17 years.

More in link.

[carmenjonze]

California may replace cash bail with algorithms

What could possibly go wrong. :problem:

— but some worry that will be less fair - NBC News

But the vote also comes at a time of rising skepticism about using mathematical formulas to determine whether someone is likely to return to court for trial or get arrested again. A growing number of researchers, computer scientists and civil rights advocates have warned that the algorithms — which use data about a person’s background and criminal history to assign a risk score — could worsen discrimination. Black people, for example, are arrested at higher rates than white people, which makes them more likely to get higher risk scores, which judges could cite to keep them locked up.

Well, that's exactly what they want. :problem:

[Glennfs]

California may replace cash bail with algorithms

What could possibly go wrong. :problem:

— but some worry that will be less fair - NBC News



Well, that's exactly what they want. :problem:

This is not a black white issue even though race based poverty pimps like to make it as such.
It is a problem because it does effect poor people more than others. While we should have high or to bond for those who have criminal records or those who are accused of a violent crime. Like the Wisconsin killer who you for some unknown reason have chosen to ignore who was out on $1000 bond when he murdered those people. Even though he had an extensive record.
On the other hand thise being charged with first offense maybe 2nd offense and non violent crimes should be given a break.

[gounion]

This is not a black white issue even though race based poverty pimps like to make it as such.
It is a problem because it does effect poor people more than others. While we should have high or to bond for those who have criminal records or those who are accused of a violent crime. Like the Wisconsin killer who you for some unknown reason have chosen to ignore who was out on $1000 bond when he murdered those people. Even though he had an extensive record.
On the other hand thise being charged with first offense maybe 2nd offense and non violent crimes should be given a break.

You know calling someone a pimp is racist itself, don't you?

Of course you do!

[ProfX]

California may replace cash bail with algorithms

What could possibly go wrong. :problem:

— but some worry that will be less fair - NBC News

Well, all I can say is, there often seems to be this belief that turning things over to algorithms and AI will make things fairer and more "race blind" but as I keep saying ... uh, no, it's still humans writing these algorithms ...

I can say this. We definitely need to do bail risk assessment in a way that's fairer. I get how many folks jumped to doing this via algorithm, but yes, this may be a case where the solution simply adds more to the problem.

[ProfX]

Like the Wisconsin killer who you for some unknown reason have chosen to ignore who was out on $1000 bond when he murdered those people. Even though he had an extensive record.

Many have brought it up. As I've said more than once, I don't like argument by anecdote.

Are there in fact, too many people being released on lenient bond that shouldn't have been? Is that a systemic problem? If so, show it to me, but pointing to one example where it occurred ... doesn't do that.

It does look like a systemic problem that we have a lot of poor people (of all races) sitting in jail who might be innocent (and found so at trial) but are in prison because they can't afford bail for very long periods of time. So, maybe it is politically costly to discuss that the problem exists, but I personally think it still needs to be.

It's a problem, we can discuss what solutions work, what don't. I don't know if I favor eliminating cash bail entirely. Could we do it differently? It may also be the case that turning it over to algorithms doesn't help. It doesn't exhaust thinking about alternatives.

[gounion]

Maybe a start would be to fund the legal system so you don't have to wait.

Hey Glenn, you wail about the Constitution all the time - what about the Sixth Amendment?

[carmenjonze]

Like the Wisconsin killer who you for some unknown reason have chosen to ignore ….

Put that hemp rope away. I’ve already told you I didn’t ignore that person

[carmenjonze]

… but yes, this may be a case where the solution simply adds more to the problem.

Well, that’s the goal.

[carmenjonze]

Many have brought it up.

Perhaps Glennfs has temporarily mistaken me for Ahmaud Arbery, since I’m the only person he’s following thread to thread regarding this individual.