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PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2012 10:59 am 
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I love it when the left admits Obama is a failure. Which they do everytime they make excuses for his failures.
BTW I wonder if they ever like to look at the economic numbers before they won the house and senate during Bush second term. Then compare them where they stood after two years of Dem controll of those bodies?

He's been successful. Killed Bin Laden, for one. Saved the auto industry. The economy IS on the rebound. Hell, after the Republicans destroyed the economy the last time, it took FDR longer to turn things around.

C'mon, Romney was going to have Bush's economic plan. Since you bitch about Obama so damned much, why don't you tell me how successful the last guy was. Tell me why Bush was a great President.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2012 11:28 am 
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Sure it is. The 750,000 a month job losses ceased in the spring of 2009 before Obama's ideas even took hold. Meaning they would have stopped anyway. The road back has been impeded by Obama's policies.


Yep, they were reduced all right. All the way down to 663,000 in March of 2009. Of course they would have stopped anyway. The occupant of the oval office has very little to do with the course of an economy in general or a particular recession. That is why this is not Barack Obama's recession. What Obama did through the stimulus was create a bottom floor where the economy could not descend into depression. That..a chief executive can do. It's done through government spending. It's the only way. Would McCain have continued with Bush's initial TARP action? I don't know...but I doubt it. That would have made John McCain a modern day Herbert Hoover. Sitting in the oval office with his thumb up his ass, while the country nosedived into another great depression.

But this is how your argument always goes lame and utterly into the realm of political partisanship.

If this is as honest as you get, you're utterly and flagrantly wasting everybody's time with your disingenuousness.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2012 2:05 pm 
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Hostess is a classic propaganda red herring. I haven't seen a word outside a few web sites on how management had given itself huge raises while letting the physical plant get older and older. They were looking at huge expenses down the road, and clearly the company had structural weaknesses that were not being addressed. They'd gone Chapter 11 once, and had then reorganized on practically a yearly basis after coming out. Absent a buyer, the management was looking for an excuse to take their golden parachutes and leave it for dead.

The unions provided this excuse. They went back in Chapter 11 and announced plans to liquidate. They blamed the union for not taking even more concessions after giving up a whole lot in the first Chapter 11.

This is something of a classic management dodge when everything else fails. File something you were thinking about anyway, and say those Commie unions took all your money. But it's all propaganda.

Along with the company being moribund, it didn't help any that Hostess products were the archetypal synthetic junk food, and the subject of jokes. It didn't really hurt their sales but it definitely gave a bad feeling about the kind of future growth potential that investors like to see. Seriously. If you were a big time portfolio manager for a major fund, would YOU take a long term bet on Hostess? Not if you liked your nice Wall Street job, you wouldn't. Might as well invest in Arctic sea ice.

The brand names are still worth something, so presumably we'll see their plastic food come back from other corporate parents. Same as Mother's Cookies.

Best to let the current Hostess Brands Inc. go the way of other 50s fossils like RCA Victor.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2012 2:27 pm 
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it seems unfair to blame unions in a blanket way. it seems that the baker's union was the suicidal component and other unions represented at the firm had greater negotiating talent.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2012 3:27 pm 
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it seems unfair to blame unions in a blanket way. it seems that the baker's union was the suicidal component and other unions represented at the firm had greater negotiating talent.


It seems as the members of the baker's union were already at the bottom of the pay scale for Hostess. The best I could find was a range of $17,000 to $34,000 a year.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2012 3:39 pm 
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it seems unfair to blame unions in a blanket way. it seems that the baker's union was the suicidal component and other unions represented at the firm had greater negotiating talent.


Oh...it's simpler than that. Management will always blame the union, and conservatives will grab it and run with it...sorta like a horse that's taken the bit. That's all it is folks.

I'm even gonna say that corporate America probably doesn't really like that conservatives do this...as corporate America realizes that they typically do better with a Democrat in the Oval Office, both in their earnings and in their stock valuation.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2012 3:53 pm 
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It seems as the members of the baker's union were already at the bottom of the pay scale for Hostess. The best I could find was a range of $17,000 to $34,000 a year.


If the quoted wages are correct, $17/hr would be about $34,000/yr. If the company wanted it at $14/hr, that would be about $28,000/yr. It's unlikely that these are students in these jobs, so trying to raise a family on 34K would be difficult, 28K even more so. Add to that an increase in contributions to health care, and a loss of pension would make it a rather unattractive job. If Hostess was doing well and the union asked for higher wages, would the company have taken the bakers from $17 to $20? That's unlikely. Would the company have taken some heat for this? It's possible, but only a handful of voices. Go the other way, and these employees get vilified. I still contend that wages was not the sticking point. I believe that management was looking to raid the pension funds, then close down. That closing down was their intent, the indicators were there.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2012 4:57 pm 
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It isn't over yet. The baker's union and Hostess agreed to an attempt at mediation today. Hostess did not get permission to liquidate as they had requested.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2012 5:06 pm 
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If the quoted wages are correct, $17/hr would be about $34,000/yr. If the company wanted it at $14/hr, that would be about $28,000/yr. It's unlikely that these are students in these jobs, so trying to raise a family on 34K would be difficult, 28K even more so. Add to that an increase in contributions to health care, and a loss of pension would make it a rather unattractive job. If Hostess was doing well and the union asked for higher wages, would the company have taken the bakers from $17 to $20? That's unlikely. Would the company have taken some heat for this? It's possible, but only a handful of voices. Go the other way, and these employees get vilified. I still contend that wages was not the sticking point. I believe that management was looking to raid the pension funds, then close down. That closing down was their intent, the indicators were there.


I saw another article that stated the cuts werent going to be 17% it said 8% in the first year followed by 1% the next 2 years and 3% in the fourth year. Still a pretty hefty cut. What the workers should have done is asked themselves if they could find another job that paid in the $15 an hour range and how soon. As it is they now have no job, no benefits and I have no idea what happens to their pension fund but, I suspect it will suffer.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2012 5:16 pm 
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He's been successful. Killed Bin Laden, for one. Saved the auto industry. The economy IS on the rebound. Hell, after the Republicans destroyed the economy the last time, it took FDR longer to turn things around.

C'mon, Romney was going to have Bush's economic plan. Since you bitch about Obama so damned much, why don't you tell me how successful the last guy was. Tell me why Bush was a great President.

GoU


Nobody is claiming W was a good President. All of your points are suspect, the auto industry could have went through what the airline industry goes through from time to time and it would have survived. What Obama did was keep the Union Jobs and Union wages, which he should take credit for. To suggest that the auto industry would be liquidated is just wrong. The Auto industry makes billions in good times. To liquidate it's assets for a one time gain makes no sense and would never happen.
When Obama ordered the assisnation of BinLaden it was because we found BinLaden. Thanks in no small part to the intel that we had thanks to W Bush. So again when something works out well the left wants 100% of the praise. When something works out bad that look for scapegoats.
As for FDR. he did help save us from becoming Communist or a Socialist country. However it was WWII that brought us out of the depression not FDR. However he needs to be given credit for reforming Wall Street and putting in place checks and balances that has helped us keep from going into another depression.
Overall I think FDR is our 3rd greatest president behind Washington and Lincoln. FYI I suspect Reagan to rank between 6 and 10. If a person looks at his time objectively, which evidently few if any here have the ability to do.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2012 5:34 pm 
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If the quoted wages are correct, $17/hr would be about $34,000/yr. If the company wanted it at $14/hr, that would be about $28,000/yr. It's unlikely that these are students in these jobs, so trying to raise a family on 34K would be difficult, 28K even more so. Add to that an increase in contributions to health care, and a loss of pension would make it a rather unattractive job. If Hostess was doing well and the union asked for higher wages, would the company have taken the bakers from $17 to $20? That's unlikely. Would the company have taken some heat for this? It's possible, but only a handful of voices. Go the other way, and these employees get vilified. I still contend that wages was not the sticking point. I believe that management was looking to raid the pension funds, then close down. That closing down was their intent, the indicators were there.


They cannot raid the pension funds, the unions have an MEPP style plan. These plans are funded by all companies in the categories involved, and move with the workers.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2012 5:59 pm 
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I saw another article that stated the cuts werent going to be 17% it said 8% in the first year followed by 1% the next 2 years and 3% in the fourth year. Still a pretty hefty cut. What the workers should have done is asked themselves if they could find another job that paid in the $15 an hour range and how soon. As it is they now have no job, no benefits and I have no idea what happens to their pension fund but, I suspect it will suffer.


Keep up Glen, Hostess and the baker's union will be in mediation tomorrow. The court is not giving Hostess everthing they asked for.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2012 6:10 pm 
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Meanwhile another factor has surfaced. Several potential buyers of the Hostess brand have said they are not intreseted in picking up any of the Hostess production plants as they are too outdated.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2012 6:26 pm 
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:rw) :rw)

will the dreaded hispanics whom the rw luves to loathe be making their twinkies?

too bad a boast is selling 'white flour' to the corn peoples.
http://www.forbes.com/sites/abrambrown/ ... ed-brands/
Mexican Billionaire Family Buy Hostess' Orphaned Brands?
....And just last year, Bimbo bought the U.S. bakery business of Sara Lee Co. for $709 million, ....



btw...new food item hitting the streets of NM....sweet tamales. omg..people Love them.
one restuarant makes them for take out, now another is starting; they take pre-orders via phone.
this....is going over real well and i know someone who can make them. :mrgreen: 8-)

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2012 6:29 pm 
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Sweet tamales are quite traditional - I'm surprised they haven't been more widely available in New Mexico of all places.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2012 6:34 pm 
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Sweet tamales are quite traditional - I'm surprised they haven't been more widely available in New Mexico of all places.

ive never seen them here but ive got someone looking into this presently...and they are natives
and he likes to cook. 8-)
these things are drippy and nutty and gooey and sound so good...

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Who are these...flag-sucking halfwits fleeced fooled by stupid little rich kids They speak for all that is cruel stupid
They are racists hate mongers I piss down the throats of these Nazis Im too old to worry whether they like it Fuck them.
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2012 6:39 pm 
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:rw) :rw)

will the dreaded hispanics whom the rw luves to loathe be making their twinkies?

too bad a boast is selling 'white flour' to the corn peoples.
http://www.forbes.com/sites/abrambrown/ ... ed-brands/
Mexican Billionaire Family Buy Hostess' Orphaned Brands?
....And just last year, Bimbo bought the U.S. bakery business of Sara Lee Co. for $709 million, ....



btw...new food item hitting the streets of NM....sweet tamales. omg..people Love them.
one restuarant makes them for take out, now another is starting; they take pre-orders via phone.
this....is going over real well and i know someone who can make them. :mrgreen: 8-)


As noted earlier in the now merged thread ... this be Bimbo:

"» ball park (buns)
» bimbo
» boboli
» brownberry
» EarthGrains
» Entenmann's
» francisco
» freihofer's
» marinela
» mrs baird's
» oroweat
» sara lee
» stroehmann
» thomas'
» tia rosa
"

"Old Country
Weber's"

"Roman Meal bread
Sun-Maid bread
Cinnabon Bread
Milton's bread"

BTW, the Bimbo brand bread is available where I live. You can buy a loaf and leave it out for a month and it still looks the same. Tons of preservatives and the tangy taste of cardboard.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2012 6:52 pm 
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What happened was the union employees were the makes and the management and corporation became the takers.
They took big raises,employee benefits and now the entire company.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2012 6:57 pm 
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BTW, the Bimbo brand bread is available where I live. You can buy a loaf and leave it out for a month and it still looks the same. Tons of preservatives and the tangy taste of cardboard.


I buy some of those - Milton's and Orowheat breads are good and sometime an Entenmann's pound cake is just the right thing. I avoid the Bimbo bread just as I avoid any white bread. ;)

This town is half Mexican so I see the Bimbo's trucks with the white Baker Bear making deliveries often.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2012 6:58 pm 
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What happened was the union employees were the makers and the management and corporation became the takers.
They took big raises,employee benefits and now the entire company.

yes, i rather like that.
the makers and the takers.
reminds me of henryFord who hired people to Make for his company and him so he could then
be the taker on looming 1% scale.
at least he comprehended his 'need' for the Makers...vs nitmitt etal who just run numbers.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2012 7:03 pm 
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I buy some of those - Milton's and Orowheat breads are good and sometime an Entenmann's pound cake is just the right thing. I avoid the Bimbo bread just as I avoid any white bread. ;)

This town is half Mexican so I see the Bimbo's trucks with the white Baker Bear making deliveries often.

ive never seen them in N/NM, just looked, theyre only in 2 border cities in S NM.

im sorta shocked any place still makes 'wonderbread'....ewwww....

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Who are these...flag-sucking halfwits fleeced fooled by stupid little rich kids They speak for all that is cruel stupid
They are racists hate mongers I piss down the throats of these Nazis Im too old to worry whether they like it Fuck them.
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2012 7:23 pm 
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They cannot raid the pension funds, the unions have an MEPP style plan. These plans are funded by all companies in the categories involved, and move with the workers.


Then I suspect that is why they did not agree to terms of the contract offer. The contract had pensions involved. Accept the contract, they take a hit on the pensions. Refuse the contract, the pensions remain intact. If they felt the company was going this route regardless, they made the right decision to not accept concessions on their pensions. Had the accepted the contract proposals, the company ends anyway and they're out their pensions.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2012 7:34 pm 
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Well, well, well. A few new developments. First, the company wants to give out another $1.75 million in bonuses for the big shots.

Second, the company and union have agreed to mediation, and the liquidation is on hold.

Third, it seems there is a group interested in buying the company. Even MORE interesting is what [urlhttp://finance.fortune.cnn.com/2012/11/19/hostess-sun-buyout/?iid=EL=]they had to say about it[/url]:

Private equity firm Sun Capital Partners wants to buy bankrupt bakery Hostess Brands Inc., Fortune has learned.

The proposal would be to operate Hostess as a going concern, including reopening the shuttered factories and continuing union representation of Hostess workers.

Sun Capital privately expressed interest in acquiring Hostess earlier this year, but the bakery's creditors chose for an alternate reorganization plan that ultimately failed. Following Friday's liquidation, Sun reengaged by contacting Hostess advisor Perella Weinberg Partners. It also plans to contact the relevant labor unions.

"I think that we could offer a slightly better, more labor-friendly deal than what was on the table last week," says Sun co-CEO Marc Leder, in an interview with Fortune. "We also think that one point the unions have made is that there hasn't been a great amount of reinvestment in the business. We've found that investing new capital into companies like this can be very positive for brand, people and profitability... We would look to invest in newer, more modern, manufacturing assets that would enable the company to become more productive and to innovate."


Wow. Now we have a BUSINESS saying that the unions were right, and they think with decent management, a still-unionized Hostess can be a profitable concern.

Explain that, righties.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2012 8:06 pm 
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its just the money from the bakers pension funds that the bankers won from the bakers yummy making jobs being done.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2012 8:26 pm 
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The deal with Sun Capital Partners could be promising. They seem willing to invest where Hostess was unwilling and they appear to have the money to do it. Maybe this why the bankrupcy court and the Justice Department slowed down proceedings.

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