Biden takes the gloves off

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carmenjonze
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Re: Biden takes the gloves off

Post by carmenjonze »

gounion wrote: Sun Sep 11, 2022 11:39 am Fear is what always motivates conservatives. You know I’ve probably lived in sketchier neighborhoods than you. I’ve never owned a gun. I’ve never in 60+ years been robbed mugged or held up. I don’t live in fear like you guys do. But that gun in your home is more likely to be used on family members than it is to be used in self defense. I’ve seen too many children shooting others. Guns aren’t the answer. You really aren’t in danger from without.
I really don’t understand why these cons hate the gangsta rapper stereotype so much. Same corruption, same worship of munny and things, same worship of guns, same misogynist ideology, same social paranoia.

Gangsta rappers just have better style and WAY better creativity.

Oh and they’re a lot cuter.
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ZoWie
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Re: Biden takes the gloves off

Post by ZoWie »

Police should be required to live in the cities that employ them. If they can't afford it on a cop's salary, then subsidize them.

LA at least used to require that police NOT live in the city. The first thing they used to drill into recruits was, "Do you really want to find yourself in the market checkout line right next to the guy you arrested last week?"

You do not want to wind up like LA. It is occupied territory.
"We must remember that we cannot abandon the truth and remain a free nation." --Liz Cheney, Republican, 7/21/22
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carmenjonze
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Re: Biden takes the gloves off

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ZoWie wrote: Mon Sep 12, 2022 12:36 pm Police should be required to live in the cities that employ them. If they can't afford it on a cop's salary, then subsidize them.
Agreed.

Just so long as they do so for teachers, too.

If police can't afford to live in the cities they police, I can garr-ron-tee teachers certainly can't.
LA at least used to require that police NOT live in the city. The first thing they used to drill into recruits was, "Do you really want to find yourself in the market checkout line right next to the guy you arrested last week?"

You do not want to wind up like LA. It is occupied territory.
Yes. I know you remember this, but one of the most egregious abuses of this was moving the Rodney King trial to Simi Valley where all the cops live.

(Well, I guess they also all live out in Riverside and Moreno Valley, now, or whatever. :problem:)

Because, you know, LA County jurors couldn't possibly be impartial about the beating, whereas white cop-hugging Republicans can. :problem:
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~ Ida B. Wells
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JoeMemphis

Re: Biden takes the gloves off

Post by JoeMemphis »

ZoWie wrote: Mon Sep 12, 2022 12:36 pm Police should be required to live in the cities that employ them. If they can't afford it on a cop's salary, then subsidize them.

LA at least used to require that police NOT live in the city. The first thing they used to drill into recruits was, "Do you really want to find yourself in the market checkout line right next to the guy you arrested last week?"

You do not want to wind up like LA. It is occupied territory.
They tried that in Memphis. It didn’t work that well. It’s cheaper and safer to live in the county. I agree they should pay cops more but it’s not just the money. It’s a safety issue. It’s a school issue if the cop has kids.

Personally IDK where you live as long as you show up when 911 is dialed.
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Re: Biden takes the gloves off

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JoeMemphis wrote: Mon Sep 12, 2022 1:21 pm They tried that in Memphis. It didn’t work that well. It’s cheaper and safer to live in the county. I agree they should pay cops more but it’s not just the money. It’s a safety issue. It’s a school issue if the cop has kids.

Personally IDK where you live as long as you show up when 911 is dialed.
As always the conservative proves just how self-centered they are.
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Re: Biden takes the gloves off

Post by Glennfs »

gounion wrote: Mon Sep 12, 2022 1:37 pm As always the conservative proves just how self-centered they are.
As always liberals want the government to control people's lives. Even to the point of telling public servants where they have to live
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ProfX
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Re: Biden takes the gloves off

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It's not just a question of where they live. It's more than the address and zip code.

It's a question of interaction - and interaction beyond making arrests. When cops get to know the people in a community, interact with them (in other than adversarial ways), understand their neighborhood - BTW, not only do we get better policing, but people trust the cops better and are more willing to help them find perps, etc. It really is, as they say, a win win.

It helps law enforcement too. If they're willing to listen to the people in the community, they will be entirely willing to help them find where "the bad guys" are, and help them deal with them. It benefits those with and without a badge. An adversarial relationship doesn't help anybody.
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Re: Biden takes the gloves off

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JoeMemphis wrote: Mon Sep 12, 2022 1:21 pm They tried that in Memphis. It didn’t work that well. It’s cheaper and safer to live in the county. I agree they should pay cops more but it’s not just the money. It’s a safety issue. It’s a school issue if the cop has kids.

Personally IDK where you live as long as you show up when 911 is dialed.
That's valid, up to a point. In some ways it's a lose-lose situation.

Obviously the professor is right, what we want is community involvement no matter how we get it. Right now, the cops are occupation forces. You don't want that.

Trust me, that's what we have, and it doesn't work. I want the kind of city where anyone can call 911 and trust that whoever shows up won't just start cuffing everyone in sight. In LA, the police are the same as calling in the National Guard, actually a bit worse because they know they have bullseyes on their backs.

It's a complex problem, and one that might be helped by more police community involvement. The LAPD has tried various measures to make it more like the friendly cop on the beat who you can depend on, but they haven't really solved the problem. Maybe it's insoluble here, in America's first true third world city.
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Re: Biden takes the gloves off

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Glennfs wrote: Mon Sep 12, 2022 1:43 pm As always liberals want the government to control people's lives. Even to the point of telling public servants where they have to live
Oh and conservatives are for freedom? Please then explain Dobbs to me. I guess you only want freedom for men.
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Re: Biden takes the gloves off

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Typically even that is limited to rich white men who can help the corporate class stick more money in their balance sheets. I've always advocated freedom for humans, you know like in the Declaration of Independence, only change "men" to "people" for clarity and timeliness. I've always been shown via people who will control you with a gun or a wall of lawyers that it's not in their interest for that to happen.
"We must remember that we cannot abandon the truth and remain a free nation." --Liz Cheney, Republican, 7/21/22
JoeMemphis

Re: Biden takes the gloves off

Post by JoeMemphis »

ProfX wrote: Mon Sep 12, 2022 1:46 pm It's not just a question of where they live. It's more than the address and zip code.

It's a question of interaction - and interaction beyond making arrests. When cops get to know the people in a community, interact with them (in other than adversarial ways), understand their neighborhood - BTW, not only do we get better policing, but people trust the cops better and are more willing to help them find perps, etc. It really is, as they say, a win win.

It helps law enforcement too. If they're willing to listen to the people in the community, they will be entirely willing to help them find where "the bad guys" are, and help them deal with them. It benefits those with and without a badge. An adversarial relationship doesn't help anybody.
I understand the theory but in reality there more to it than the address. Cops have the same concerns as any other citizen when choosing where to live. It’s a nice thought but it doesn’t always work. We need more cops, better paid, better trained. Where they choose to live isn’t as important to me as long as they are good at their job.
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Re: Biden takes the gloves off

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JoeMemphis wrote: Mon Sep 12, 2022 2:22 pm I understand the theory but in reality there more to it than the address. Cops have the same concerns as any other citizen when choosing where to live. It’s a nice thought but it doesn’t always work. We need more cops, better paid, better trained. Where they choose to live isn’t as important to me as long as they are good at their job.
Why we need is for them to be accountable. We need to do away with qualified immunity and union protection.
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Re: Biden takes the gloves off

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Glennfs wrote: Mon Sep 12, 2022 1:43 pm As always liberals want the government to control people's lives.
You vote for anti-abort and anti-trans laws that criminalize personal medical decisions.

You vote for politicians who ban Toni Morrison books.
Even to the point of telling public servants where they have to live
Conservative whites have never had any problem with the government telling nonwhites where they have to live, or go to school, or work, or serve in the military, or whether they can vote.

You’re still trying it.

You guys are the nastiest, most violent purveyors of government control in this country, ever.

Sit down.
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Re: Biden takes the gloves off

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JoeMemphis wrote: Mon Sep 12, 2022 2:22 pm We need more cops, better paid, better trained. Where they choose to live isn’t as important to me as long as they are good at their job.
"Good at their job" -- well the devil is in the details, I guess. I think they are good at their job if they are very good at de-escalating situations to where force (esp. deadly or lethal force) isn't necessary. To be clear, I get that isn't possible in all cases. Where it is, they need to be good at it.

I also think, as I keep saying, key to doing their job well is trust between them and the community, and I'll repeat their address of where they live is only one variable in that equation. Other steps are necessary. We're focusing on only one. Lack of that trust leads to bad policing outcomes, they come to be seen as hostile occupiers like Zowie keeps saying, AND makes it harder for them to do their job. Lose-lose.
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Re: Biden takes the gloves off

Post by JoeMemphis »

ProfX wrote: Mon Sep 12, 2022 4:06 pm "Good at their job" -- well the devil is in the details, I guess. I think they are good at their job if they are very good at de-escalating situations to where force (esp. deadly or lethal force) isn't necessary. To be clear, I get that isn't possible in all cases. Where it is, they need to be good at it.

I also think, as I keep saying, key to doing their job well is trust between them and the community, and I'll repeat their address of where they live is only one variable in that equation. Other steps are necessary. We're focusing on only one. Lack of that trust leads to bad policing outcomes, they come to be seen as hostile occupiers like Zowie keeps saying, AND makes it harder for them to do their job. Lose-lose.
I would not compromise the quality of the candidate based solely on where he chooses to live. As you say there are a number of variables and address is only one. If you need qualified cops on the street and you are having trouble filling the positions, I wouldn’t let the applicants address stand in the way. Should we require all teachers live in the inner city neighborhoods where they teach? What happens if you can’t get good teachers because of that requirement? Do without? What about Firemen?

I don’t have a problem with the theory. Maybe make it a goal and provide incentives. I just think it shouldn’t limit your hiring choices.
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Re: Biden takes the gloves off

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carmenjonze wrote: Mon Sep 12, 2022 3:14 pm You vote for anti-abort and anti-trans laws that criminalize personal medical decisions.

You vote for politicians who ban Toni Morrison books.



Conservative whites have never had any problem with the government telling nonwhites where they have to live, or go to school, or work, or serve in the military, or whether they can vote.

You’re still trying it.

You guys are the nastiest, most violent purveyors of government control in this country, ever.

Sit down.
I would be much more in favor of requiring congressmen to live in their district and Senators to live in their state
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gounion
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Re: Biden takes the gloves off

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Glennfs wrote: Mon Sep 12, 2022 5:41 pm I would be much more in favor of requiring congressmen to live in their district and Senators to live in their state
You could always simply not vote for them if they don’t live in the district or state.
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Re: Biden takes the gloves off

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Glennfs wrote: Mon Sep 12, 2022 5:41 pm I would be much more in favor of requiring congressmen to live in their district and Senators to live in their state
Do let Dr. Oz know.

You guys dictated the every move of minorities and normal so-called whites, for centuries.

Conservative whites have always been the worst abusers of government control, now including what people can talk about in the doctor's office, how they plan their own families, what books they can check out of the library.

Next, you'll start back to beating and arresting and murdering people for trying to vote. You guys got the government to do that, too.
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carmenjonze
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Re: Biden takes the gloves off

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JoeMemphis wrote: Mon Sep 12, 2022 2:22 pm We need more cops,
No, "we" don't.
better paid,
Wake me when you make the same argument for teachers.
better trained.
These issues are not training issues.
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~ Ida B. Wells
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Re: Biden takes the gloves off

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Image
I sigh in your general direction.
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Re: Biden takes the gloves off

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ProfX wrote: Sun Sep 11, 2022 8:50 am The question is, should they be getting called ...

To handle a 9 year old girl in a school having a tantrum?
To deal with a mentally ill person who is having, as they say, an "episode"?
To deal with a kid playing with a toy gun?
To deal with someone whose "crime" was ... spraying graffiti?
To be used as props by Guv. DePutin to arrest people for the crime of ... voting?
And now ... to "investigate" the status of a pregnant woman who had a miscarriage?

The problem I think is they've become the hammer to hit the nail of a lot of social problems, and yeah, they are being overused. And yep, that is most definitely not a training issue. This is a "society needs to rethink what cops are for" issue. Perhaps people with capacity for lethal force should not be the FIRST people to call. To me that's one of the core things in the "defund" debate ... maybe we ALSO need more, better paid social workers, mental health professionals, crisis counselors, etc.

i'm counting at least 4-6 posts that i haven't been able to disagree with.

i will take issue with "training".,,, Protocol. Procedure. Rules, damn it.

Follow orders.
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Re: Biden takes the gloves off

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ProfX wrote: Mon Sep 12, 2022 1:46 pm It's not just a question of where they live. It's more than the address and zip code.

It's a question of interaction - and interaction beyond making arrests. When cops get to know the people in a community, interact with them (in other than adversarial ways), understand their neighborhood - BTW, not only do we get better policing, but people trust the cops better and are more willing to help them find perps, etc. It really is, as they say, a win win.

It helps law enforcement too. If they're willing to listen to the people in the community, they will be entirely willing to help them find where "the bad guys" are, and help them deal with them. It benefits those with and without a badge. An adversarial relationship doesn't help anybody.
[chuckle]Odd that. i was once shot down for saying basically the same thing awhile back.

Community involvement. Police departments put on meet and greets all the time. Attend some of them. Get to know your police department.

As for having to live in the city you police, yaaa, i dunno. Some people love living in the city, some the burbs, and some want a bit more room. Dunno if i'd want to tell them where they could live and not live.

Drawing/recruiting police officers from minority communities to then later serve in them i like. They have programs for this. Unfortunately, they also have to be rethought.
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ProfX
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Re: Biden takes the gloves off

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bradman wrote: Wed Sep 14, 2022 10:58 am Community involvement. Police departments put on meet and greets all the time. Attend some of them. Get to know your police department.
I thank you for suggesting this. I have done it. My Mom was very active at attending Hallandale City Commission meetings - she knew the Mayor, Joy Cooper, who BTW DePutin sacked from office, but she's back - I would sometimes go with her, and 1 or 2 were those "meet and greets".

Problem is, I've also talked to folks from Liberty City, Overtown, Little Haiti, many other neighborhoods like that, and they don't do those same things there. As you say -- funny that.

I'm gonna repeat - you act like an adversarial entity toward the community, they're gonna see you that way. To me, this is the heart of the question, not so much fixating on what their residential address is. Or even the race of what they are, but yeah, it's in the mix.
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carmenjonze
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Re: Biden takes the gloves off

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bradman wrote: Wed Sep 14, 2022 10:58 am [chuckle]Odd that. i was once shot down for saying basically the same thing awhile back.

Community involvement. Police departments put on meet and greets all the time. Attend some of them. Get to know your police department.

As for having to live in the city you police, yaaa, i dunno. Some people love living in the city, some the burbs, and some want a bit more room. Dunno if i'd want to tell them where they could live and not live.
The type of "community involvement" you're talking about was ruthlessly parodied in Sanford and Son.

Ex: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8nffnrJV5Ps - :lol: "hammerhocks and black-eyed rice" :lol: :lol: :lol:

It was funny because some of you guys really think this kind of paternalism is the extent of "community involvement," and that this "community involvement" is somehow the goal of "minority communities" who are simply saying, stop killing us and our little kids.
Drawing/recruiting police officers from minority communities to then later serve in them i like. They have programs for this. Unfortunately, they also have to be rethought.
Tell that to Freddie Gray's family. https://ktla.com/news/nexstar-media-wir ... ddie-gray/

Tell that to the Black people living under ridiculous David Clarke and the Latinos in LA County living under MAGA creeps like Villanueva.
Get to know your police department.
This is victim-blaming ideology. You go be not-white for five minutes, live in a broken-windows or SFPD or any policing environment, and get to know your police department.

Let us know how it goes, and who you call when being mugged.
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carmenjonze
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Re: Biden takes the gloves off

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bradman wrote: Sat Sep 10, 2022 11:46 pm And if you are getting mugged?

Who ya gonna to call?

The Ghostbusters? :mrgreen:
I’d like your rationale for why Black people in Columbus County should call the cops for any reason.

SBI investigates NC sheriff accused of making racist comments, targeting Black deputies - News Observer
The State Bureau of Investigation is looking into allegations of obstruction of justice by the Columbus County sheriff and deputies under his command, a spokeswoman for the statewide law enforcement agency said Wednesday. The investigation’s launch coincides with a local TV station’s publication of a recording in which Sheriff Jody Greene appears to use racist language in referring to Black deputies who he suspects are loyal to the previous sheriff, Lewis Hatcher, who is Black. “I’m sick of these Black bastards,” Greene said, according to the video recording. “I’m going to clean house and be done with it.”
Greene defended himself in a lengthy statement posted to the sheriff’s office Facebook page. “I adamantly deny any racial intent or actions on my part,” Greene wrote. “I acknowledge there were racial tensions during the 2018 certification of the election and that the media and some members in the community were referring to the two political sides as black and white. And I also acknowledge that I use expletive language but deny using it with malice intent.”
:?
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The way to right wrongs is to
Shine the light of truth on them.

~ Ida B. Wells
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