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Texas Abortion Law Case

Posted: Mon Nov 01, 2021 3:38 pm
by sam lefthand
I just listened to 3 hours of oral testimony at the US Supreme Court over the two Texas cases before it today.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ca5AGMqVpgU

This law is unique so this hearing was unique. The Roe v Wade constitutionality was not at issue in this hearing, the TRO and standing of the US Federal Government to intervene and to enjoin future actions was.

After listening I don't know what they will rule. However I do get a sense that in the end what Texas is trying to do will not be allowed to stand. But I have no idea how or when they will choose to unravel it.

The testimony was very interesting and I didn't miss a bit of it. It was three hours of court watcher's candy.

:D

Re: Texas Abortion Law Case

Posted: Mon Nov 01, 2021 6:23 pm
by Bludogdem
They really do not like the enforcement mechanism. That may well sink SB8.

Re: Texas Abortion Law Case

Posted: Mon Nov 01, 2021 6:42 pm
by gounion
Sounds like it’s a can of worms they don’t want opened. If they decide it’s Constitutional, then the left can do the same thing on guns.

The GOP really doesn’t think things through.

Re: Texas Abortion Law Case

Posted: Mon Nov 01, 2021 7:11 pm
by gounion
Looking at some of the arguments today, it looks like the law is in trouble. And it just may get knocked down at this point.

If so, that begs the question: Why didn’t they just knock it down in the first place?

I’ll tell you what would be hilarious: I’ve said on another thread that it always seems like it’s Republican appointees that later become wild liberals. What if one or all three of Trump’s appointees went, like, Ginsburg left? Would that be funny as hell? It would also destroy the GOP base: They’ve been promised this for years, and voted and voted and voted to get to this point, and if they don’t? Oh, they won’t start voting dem, but they’ll just stop voting.

It won’t happen, but the thought of it made me smile.

Re: Texas Abortion Law Case

Posted: Mon Nov 01, 2021 8:58 pm
by Bludogdem
“ "There's a loophole that's been exploited here or used here," Kavanaugh said. "It could be free speech rights. It could be free exercise of religion rights. It could be Second Amendment rights."

https://www.newsweek.com/trump-scotus-a ... es-1644664

Alito turned arguments about the unprecedented nature of the Texas law on their head, contending that the proposed response of blocking judges or clerks from acting on S.B.8 lawsuits would open the door to similar relief in other circumstances.

“I think we have to be concerned about the implications of the mechanisms that you propose ... It’s unprecedented and it is contrary to our system of federal law to enjoin a state judge from even hearing a case. When has that been done and how can that be justified?”

https://www.politico.com/news/2021/11/0 ... ban-518230

Re: Texas Abortion Law Case

Posted: Mon Nov 01, 2021 9:03 pm
by Number6
So, if the Supreme Court upholds the Texas law then does that mean other states can pass similar laws concerning gun control?

Re: Texas Abortion Law Case

Posted: Mon Nov 01, 2021 9:38 pm
by sam lefthand
Number6 wrote: Mon Nov 01, 2021 9:03 pm So, if the Supreme Court upholds the Texas law then does that mean other states can pass similar laws concerning gun control?
Yes. There was a great deal of discussion about that today. If... .

I've given it a lot of thought and have come to the conclusion that the Court will toss the Texas law on the basis of it's enforcement mechanism to prevent that from happening.

I think it will be a near if not a fully unanimous decision.

:)

Re: Texas Abortion Law Case

Posted: Mon Nov 01, 2021 10:00 pm
by gounion
sam lefthand wrote: Mon Nov 01, 2021 9:38 pm Yes. There was a great deal of discussion about that today. If... .

I've given it a lot of thought and have come to the conclusion that the Court will toss the Texas law on the basis of it's enforcement mechanism to prevent that from happening.

I think it will be a near if not a fully unanimous decision.

:)
I doubt either Alito or Thomas would say no to any abortion ban.

Re: Texas Abortion Law Case

Posted: Mon Nov 01, 2021 10:06 pm
by sam lefthand
gounion wrote: Mon Nov 01, 2021 10:00 pm I doubt either Alito or Thomas would say no to any abortion ban.
A 7-2 or an 8-1 are both near unanimous.

:)

Re: Texas Abortion Law Case

Posted: Tue Nov 02, 2021 5:25 am
by gounion
sam lefthand wrote: Mon Nov 01, 2021 10:06 pm A 7-2 or an 8-1 are both near unanimous.

:)
Unanimous definition:

adjective
adjective: unanimous

(of two or more people) fully in agreement.


Define it how your want; I don't believe that Alito nor Thomas will ever vote against any abortion law. I would be astonished. I would expect, in reference to the Texas law only, a 5-4 or 6-3 at the very best. And that's ONLY because they're scared of what the left might come up with in gun laws.

Re: Texas Abortion Law Case

Posted: Tue Nov 02, 2021 8:12 am
by JoeMemphis
Number6 wrote: Mon Nov 01, 2021 9:03 pm So, if the Supreme Court upholds the Texas law then does that mean other states can pass similar laws concerning gun control?
For example? I think that would depend on the proposed law.

Re: Texas Abortion Law Case

Posted: Tue Nov 02, 2021 9:07 am
by gounion
JoeMemphis wrote: Tue Nov 02, 2021 8:12 am For example? I think that would depend on the proposed law.
You should try the "news" sometime. Maybe you've heard of it. From yesterday:
Stone argued in court that the state cannot be sued in federal court over the law because it is enforced through individual lawsuits brought by citizens, not government officials.

Kavanaugh asked Stone about the "implications of your position for other constitutional rights"—including possible infringements on gun rights, free exercise of religion rights and free speech.

The associate justice, appointed by former President Donald Trump, specifically posed a theoretical law that would allow the seller of an AR-15 semi-automatic weapon to be sued for $1 million.

The Texas solicitor general acknowledged the possibility but said Congress could pass laws to protect such rights. Kavanaugh seemed wary of such intervention.

"Some of those examples, I think, would be quite difficult to get legislation through Congress," Kavanaugh said.

Justice Elena Kagan also jumped in on the matter, asking Stone: "Isn't the point of a right that you don't have to ask Congress?"
Now, I directly quoted Justice Kavanaugh, so that you wouldn't respond with your usual "you are crazy, that would never happen" crap. Kavanaugh doesn't think it's crazy.

Re: Texas Abortion Law Case

Posted: Tue Nov 02, 2021 10:03 am
by Bludogdem
Number6 wrote: Mon Nov 01, 2021 9:03 pm So, if the Supreme Court upholds the Texas law then does that mean other states can pass similar laws concerning gun control?
They can pass laws threatening any constitutional right.

Re: Texas Abortion Law Case

Posted: Tue Nov 02, 2021 10:07 am
by Bludogdem
sam lefthand wrote: Mon Nov 01, 2021 9:38 pm Yes. There was a great deal of discussion about that today. If... .

I've given it a lot of thought and have come to the conclusion that the Court will toss the Texas law on the basis of it's enforcement mechanism to prevent that from happening.

I think it will be a near if not a fully unanimous decision.

:)
I suspect the more the justices thought about SB8’s novel enforcement method the more it became clear they needed to deal with it. I think they came to court Monday with something of a preordained approach. This is a Nip It moment.

Re: Texas Abortion Law Case

Posted: Tue Nov 02, 2021 10:12 am
by gounion
Bludogdem wrote: Tue Nov 02, 2021 10:07 am I suspect the more the justices thought about SB8’s novel enforcement method the more it became clear they needed to deal with it. I think they came to court Monday with something of a preordained approach. This is a Nip It moment.
Don't you think the judges should have thought about it in the first place? Or did they just see "oh, anti-abortion bill, great!"?

Re: Texas Abortion Law Case

Posted: Tue Nov 02, 2021 2:26 pm
by Number6
JoeMemphis wrote: Tue Nov 02, 2021 8:12 am For example? I think that would depend on the proposed law.
The state could mandate all guns must be registered with either the city police and/or country sheriff's office. Anyone knowing someone who has an unregistered gun could sue the gun owner and be awarded damages of $10,000 for not being in compliance with the law.

Re: Texas Abortion Law Case

Posted: Tue Nov 02, 2021 2:29 pm
by Number6
Bludogdem wrote: Tue Nov 02, 2021 10:03 am They can pass laws threatening any constitutional right.
I think it would fall under the category of which law takes supremacy, local/state laws or federal/constitutional laws/rights? If a state passes a law that conflicts with federal law then federal law takes precedence. The same goes for a state passing a law denying rights to individuals that are protected under the Constitution.

Re: Texas Abortion Law Case

Posted: Wed Nov 03, 2021 9:06 am
by JoeMemphis
Number6 wrote: Tue Nov 02, 2021 2:26 pm The state could mandate all guns must be registered with either the city police and/or country sheriff's office. Anyone knowing someone who has an unregistered gun could sue the gun owner and be awarded damages of $10,000 for not being in compliance with the law.
I see your point. I don’t agree with the vigilante provision in either law. It turns neighbor against neighbor for money.

Re: Texas Abortion Law Case

Posted: Wed Nov 03, 2021 9:08 am
by gounion
JoeMemphis wrote: Wed Nov 03, 2021 9:06 am I see your point. I don’t agree with the vigilante provision in either law. It turns neighbor against neighbor for money.
These are the kinds of laws that are passed when Republicans are in power. Look at the crazy anti-mask anti-mandate law that is being pushed in Tennessee right now.

Re: Texas Abortion Law Case

Posted: Wed Nov 03, 2021 9:45 am
by JoeMemphis
gounion wrote: Wed Nov 03, 2021 9:08 am These are the kinds of laws that are passed when Republicans are in power. Look at the crazy anti-mask anti-mandate law that is being pushed in Tennessee right now.
I am not a fan of mandates either. But you already know that. I would note that while many Democrats in office favor such laws, many rank and file democrats aren’t all that thrilled with mandates either. So it’s not just conservatives and republicans, many people in this country don’t care to be ordered around.

Re: Texas Abortion Law Case

Posted: Wed Nov 03, 2021 9:55 am
by gounion
JoeMemphis wrote: Wed Nov 03, 2021 9:45 am I am not a fan of mandates either. But you already know that. I would note that while many Democrats in office favor such laws, many rank and file democrats aren’t all that thrilled with mandates either. So it’s not just conservatives and republicans, many people in this country don’t care to be ordered around.
I'm not a fan of polio either.

And yes, it's by far Republicans. Most Democrats have gotten the vaccine.

Re: Texas Abortion Law Case

Posted: Wed Nov 03, 2021 9:58 am
by JoeMemphis
gounion wrote: Wed Nov 03, 2021 9:55 am I'm not a fan of polio either.

And yes, it's by far Republicans. Most Democrats have gotten the vaccine.
Well do everything you need to do to protect yourself.

That’s your job. Your responsibility.

Re: Texas Abortion Law Case

Posted: Wed Nov 03, 2021 10:04 am
by gounion
JoeMemphis wrote: Wed Nov 03, 2021 9:58 am Well do everything you need to do to protect yourself.

That’s your job. Your responsibility.
If we didn't have universal polio vaccines, we'd still have it. And that's the world you want.

Do you wear seatbelts?

Do you wear shorts and Hawaiian Shirts to business meetings?

Do you not go to restaurants that say "no shirts no shoes no service" because you don't like being told what to do?

Re: Texas Abortion Law Case

Posted: Wed Nov 03, 2021 10:07 am
by JoeMemphis
gounion wrote: Wed Nov 03, 2021 10:04 am If we didn't have universal polio vaccines, we'd still have it. And that's the world you want.

Do you wear seatbelts?

Do you wear shorts and Hawaiian Shirts to business meetings?

Do you not go to restaurants that say "no shirts no shoes no service" because you don't like being told what to do?
We have had this discussion before. I simply don’t agree with you on masking and I don’t agree with you on the use of mandates in this pandemic. We are not going to change each other’s minds by discussing it further.

Re: Texas Abortion Law Case

Posted: Wed Nov 03, 2021 10:14 am
by gounion
JoeMemphis wrote: Wed Nov 03, 2021 10:07 am We have had this discussion before. I simply don’t agree with you on masking and I don’t agree with you on the use of mandates in this pandemic. We are not going to change each other’s minds by discussing it further.
Yeah, as always, you refuse to answer my questions, because you don't want to make my point.

The point is, we are told what to do all the fucking time. As an accountant, you've had to dress like all the other lemmings your whole life. I had to wear safety equipment all the time. You're stupid whining about masks makes you sound like a whiney wuss. Try wearing a full respirator for a whole day. Plus, you've spent most of your time in an air-conditioned office. I spent 25 years in an un-airconditioned shop.

We no longer have to worry about Polio and smallpox and many other diseases because of vaccine mandates.

You don't like these discussions because you always lose on the facts.