Is this the high-water mark of our freedoms? Must-see.

[ProfX]

Well, this is my opinion: rather than a law mandating how school administrators, faculty, and staff MUST act in a given situation, with the only possible exception being if they can get a magistrate to interfere, how about we just leave it up to their discretion. I can just tell you in FL getting magistrates to act in a timely manner can be a tricky proposition.

Seems 45 states (or so - not sure if all 5 states have identical ordinances, but in the ALEC days they usually do) are fine with doing things that way. Just saying. I know you won't agree, Joe, but yes, that is my position. Which I think is entirely reasonable, and finds a good balance between the rights of children, faculty, and parents.

[gounion]

As I said. If you believe all that stupid shit you are spewing the state it loud and proud in the next election and let the electorate decide what they want. Let them decide who is primarily responsible for a child. The parent or the state. You tell them you believe it’s the state. Let’s see how that goes over.

Thanks for proving my point. You want autocracy. DeSantas and Rick Scott are obviously your heroes. If parents want their children taught as they want they can homeschool. But that’s not it - you want to control ALL children by theories rules.

You dont support gays you want them shoved back into the closet.

[gounion]

Well, this is my opinion: rather than a law mandating how school administrators, faculty, and staff MUST act in a given situation, with the only possible exception being if they can get a magistrate to interfere, how about we just leave it up to their discretion. I can just tell you in FL getting magistrates to act in a timely manner can be a tricky proposition.

Seems 45 states (or so - not sure if all 5 states have identical ordinances, but in the ALEC days they usually do) are fine with doing things that way. Just saying. I know you won't agree, Joe, but yes, that is my position. Which I think is entirely reasonable, and finds a good balance between the rights of children, faculty, and parents.

Joe doesn’t want reasonable. He wants to rule everyone.

[JoeMemphis]

Five states total, 4 others other than FL, have a law like FL's "Don't Say Gay".

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-LGBT ... ted_States

Guess which ones:
as of 2022: Louisiana, Mississippi, Oklahoma, Texas,[3] and Florida.

(You can also read up on how many states had such laws in the past, then either repealed them, or more notably, had their state courts rule they violated the state constitution.

Now here's what's really cute. Both Alabama and South Carolina had (past tense) laws like this, and repealed or overturned them, and now are considering bringing them back. Make up your minds, people.)

Point being, 45 other states are doing just fine without such laws. If there is such a dire need for such laws, why do 45 other states not have them? (Alabama, Ohio, and South Carolina haven't passed theirs yet.)

And again I wanna point out I have never said parents must be "out of the loop" - there is an easy way to get into it - attend school board meetings and vote for school board members - they have been able to do that since, well, forever, and long before these laws were passed.j

If none of this is actually happening in schools then I fail to understand objections to these laws. All they appear to do is to codify the schools rights and responsibility to students and parents in these matters.

I’m all for parents handling things like this at the local school board but I have a feeling that even if it happened there the people who object to state laws in this matter would also be objecting at the school board level. Would you not have the same objections at the local school board level.

Is there any regulation less than complete autonomy for the teacher and the school administrator in the classroom that’s acceptable? This is being decided by law democratically at state and local levels. I don’t have an issue with the process. Personally I favor more parental involvement in the lives and development of their children and not less. The are primarily responsible for the welfare of their child. If the feel they need laws to make sure that happens, I’m okay with that as well.

[JoeMemphis]

Thanks for proving my point. You want autocracy. DeSantas and Rick Scott are obviously your heroes. If parents want their children taught as they want they can homeschool. But that’s not it - you want to control ALL children by theories rules.

You dont support gays you want them shoved back into the closet.

Putting something up for a vote is autocratic you say. Really. Do you know how fucking stupid you sound. Autocracies don’t give a damn about voting.

If you want your 7 year old to learn sex education and gender identification, you can homeschool as well. You prove that you are no different from what you hate. You don’t mind rules. You don’t mind freedom. You don’t mind choice. No. As long as you get to make the rules. As long as you get to define freedom. As long as you get to determine the choices. Then you are all for them. But to leave it up to the electorate, we’ll that’s authoritarian to you. Why are you so afraid of what free people will vote for after you explain to them what you are really all about? Rejection? I guess you have lots of experience with that.

[ProfX]

If none of this is actually happening in schools then I fail to understand objections to these laws.

I guess:
a) you don't know the definition of a moral panic - google it - there were probably few if any real life Satanists in the U.S., let alone ones abusing children, yet there's a group called QAnon which seems to think they are everywhere (but somehow, especially, in academia, the Democratic party, and Hollywood, oh and weird when you ask for names a lot tend to be Jewish, but I digress) and are drinking massive vats of adrenochrome drained from their glands and obtained through occult rituals.
Also, as carmen pointed out, we have laws all over the country banning states from imposing "sharia law" when, there were zero examples of that ever happening before the bans were passed.
There was this Star Wars film called The Phantom Menace. Fear is powerful, sometimes necessary, not always rational or based on evidence. Power is often seized and gained by making people afraid of phantom menaces.
so then
b) you haven't noticed that today, we have a whole bunch of states banning CRT in K-12 classrooms and textbooks, and yet unable to show any examples of it in either case. (FL is just one.)

Joe, in order for me to sign on to a law dealing with a problem, you first have to show me the problem exists. I'm a simple guy that way. Were there ANY examples of teachers in K-3 in Florida showing explicit gay sex instruction manuals to kids in their classrooms? I'm hoping BTW they were fired even before this law was passed ...

[ZoWie]

Moral panic! Of course i know what that is, and how to recognize it, because I learned how to think analytically. I see it cropping up in myself, and I ask whether what I fear this time isn't just more hype. Like CRT, a graduate law school academic debate, being held up as some great corrupter of the young in K-12. Or whether (more immediate) I have to hide at home because people have pretty much stopped masking up.

You're on the right track with this stuff.

[ProfX]

MHO: we can debate whether or not you as an individual should be masking up (in the end; no real debate; all you can do is argue with yourself over an individual decision), or the more thorny problem of whether a local community should order a mask mandate.

If that decision is being based on objective data like positivity rates, transmission rates, and case rates, I don't think that is a moral panic. No.

Now I know possibly one or two people on this board might not agree with me, but even if you are at low risk of dying from COVID, there are reasons you should try and avoid getting infected. I've stated them many times.

We do have to be honest about what isn't necessary and what does work. Yeah. If you're going to wear a mask, the KN95's seem to be most effective against BA.2/Omicron. You can wipe down surfaces zealously, but it doesn't really seem to matter. You should be more worried about indoor crowds than outdoor ones. Most importantly, the best way to make sure you don't require hospitalization is to get vaccinated and boosted.

I like to think making public health decisions based on data, and updating them based on new findings, is the scientific method, and the opposite of a moral panic.

"YMMV".

[Libertas]

Yes Prof, just last night I passed on a family dinner because I would have had to travel in car with 4 others and eat in busy restaurant, it had no outdoor seating. This was an important dinner, but I passed.

[JoeMemphis]

I guess:
a) you don't know the definition of a moral panic - google it - there were probably few if any real life Satanists in the U.S., let alone ones abusing children, yet there's a group called QAnon which seems to think they are everywhere (but somehow, especially, in academia, the Democratic party, and Hollywood, oh and weird when you ask for names a lot tend to be Jewish, but I digress) and are drinking massive vats of adrenochrome drained from their glands and obtained through occult rituals.
Also, as carmen pointed out, we have laws all over the country banning states from imposing "sharia law" when, there were zero examples of that ever happening before the bans were passed.
There was this Star Wars film called The Phantom Menace. Fear is powerful, sometimes necessary, not always rational or based on evidence. Power is often seized and gained by making people afraid of phantom menaces.
so then
b) you haven't noticed that today, we have a whole bunch of states banning CRT in K-12 classrooms and textbooks, and yet unable to show any examples of it in either case. (FL is just one.)

Joe, in order for me to sign on to a law dealing with a problem, you first have to show me the problem exists. I'm a simple guy that way. Were there ANY examples of teachers in K-3 in Florida showing explicit gay sex instruction manuals to kids in their classrooms? I'm hoping BTW they were fired even before this law was passed ...

I dunno Prof. You say they aren’t needed. You are welcome to your opinion. But so are the other voters in Florida. Maybe they see things differently. Such is democracy. I imagine that there are tons of laws on the books that someone somewhere will claim it’s not needed. I see the Florida law as a codification of what is expected of public school educators and their responsibility to students and parents. It draws the lines. You and I are both reasonable people and yet we can and often do differ on where those lines are to be drawn. So who gets the “discretion” in that case? In the case of the Fl law I say the discretion should lie with the person(s) who primarily responsible for the health and welfare of the child IOW the parent.

I note in the law that it doesn’t prescribe for sanctions for violations of the law. I would guess that’s an administrative matter. If a teacher has been terminated, I would look to the school administration for the reasoning behind that decision. I would think that the teacher has rights she can pursue in court for wrongful termination if she believes she has a case. I recall a recent case where a high school coach appealed to the courts for relief because he was fired for participating in prayers after football games with his players. Players who were weren’t 8 year olds but rather 16,17,18 year old players by the way. But at any rate clearly teachers can pursue a wrongful termination case in court if they feel they have been wrongfully terminated.

Personally I wouldn’t want to see any teacher lose their job for a single instance or the mere mention of these subjects. Continued violations thereafter should be treated appropriately.

[gounion]

Putting something up for a vote is autocratic you say. Really. Do you know how fucking stupid you sound. Autocracies don’t give a damn about voting.

If you want your 7 year old to learn sex education and gender identification, you can homeschool as well. You prove that you are no different from what you hate. You don’t mind rules. You don’t mind freedom. You don’t mind choice. No. As long as you get to make the rules. As long as you get to define freedom. As long as you get to determine the choices. Then you are all for them. But to leave it up to the electorate, we’ll that’s authoritarian to you. Why are you so afraid of what free people will vote for after you explain to them what you are really all about? Rejection? I guess you have lots of experience with that.

Where was the vote by the people on this law?

[ZoWie]

The best "modern" example of a moral panic that I can think of is still the McMartin Pre-School affair in the beach towns south of LA a very long time ago. I was just a kid, but there was no getting away from it. A parent later diagnosed with paranoid schizophrenia made an accusation that the owners of the school systematically molested kids in all manner of grotesque and unbelievable ways. As a matter of fact, "witchcraft" actually did come up at times.

The panic had a clear affinitity to the Salem witch hunts. In both cases, some little kids told the nice adults what they wanted to hear, and it went from there. Of course in the modern incident there were also news media, which of course splashed it all over the headlines to sell papers/ad time.

At one point practically every pre-school around there was closed, because a significant number of parents and concerned citizens had decided beyond all doubt that every last one of them had helped build an extensive network of underground tunnels beneath a pretty good sized geographic area, and that the children were routinely being taken down there and molested or forced to film sex scenes. Yes, there was property damage, and maybe some violence. It was a long time ago and it's hazy. It's all in Wikipedia.

The McMartins were tried, twice, and acquitted. To this day there is no shred of proof that a single child was ever exploited sexually. No one ever found a basement, let alone a tunnel. Everything's built on cement slabs or over parking in that part of SoCal. It was the world's largest nothingburger.

And this is when Internet was still limited to a few defense contractors at universities.

Any time children come up, moral panics seem to be stronger and more potent.

[Glennfs]

Where was the vote by the people on this law?

We don't live in a direct democracy the vote was conducted by the people's representatives.
If the people are upset about it they can vote those representatives out of office.

How anyone can believe it is ok to discuss sexuality with children who still believe in Santa Claus is beyond me.

[carmenjonze]

In a thread about "freedom," this sure doesn't sound like it.

Well. To me, it sounds very much like the Orwellian free dumb practiced by conservatives.

Free dumb for them means government repression for the rest of us, with the most socially vulnerable as their easiest targets. That’s why they’re beating up on trans kids and non traditional families, and trotting out old 1950s Cold War stereotypes about gays.

#prolife
#profamily

[JoeMemphis]

Where was the vote by the people on this law?

Representative democracy. Ever heard of it. It’s a lot different that authoritarian or totalitarian. Look them all up and compare.

[ProfX]

How anyone can believe it is ok to discuss sexuality with children who still believe in Santa Claus is beyond me.

Uhh, again, as I've said many times, comprehensive sex ed aka "birds and bees" - which I think should be taught in public schools, of course - should probably be saved for middle school, 7th-9th grade. Most school systems in the U.S. agree with that.

No one was doing it in 3rd grade in Florida.

On the other hand, do I think Ms. Marple, art teacher extraordinaire, should be fired if she has an exercise for kids to draw pictures of their home and family life, and little Heather draws a picture of her two mommies, and she puts it up on display in the class along with everybody else's? Should she be fired if Bobby does't understand why Heather has two mommies, and Ms. Marple explains it to him? No. BTW, Ms. Marple does not need to hand out the Kama Sutra to explain this, but I also don't think because it's third grade, everything about the topic should be avoided.

I also think Ms. Marple should not be fired if she happens to be married to a woman named Jen, and mentions they went on vacation, or puts a picture of her on her desk. Even in 3rd grade.

[ProfX]

Representative democracy. Ever heard of it. It’s a lot different that authoritarian or totalitarian. Look them all up and compare.

I'm familiar with it. Direct democracy in a country of 300+ mil people can be very unwieldy.

Now, as to whether the peoples' representatives are doing the peoples' will, well, we do this thing called polling.

So here's what polls say.

Vast majority of Florida voters oppose ‘Don’t Say Gay’ bill – GOP is going to pass it anyway
Survey shows 34 per cent support for ‘hateful’ legislation targeting LGBT+ youth
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/worl ... 21475.html

As lawmakers passed a final version of the bill on Tuesday, a poll showed around a third of voters (34 per cent) supporting the legislation “somewhat or strongly”.

The findings published by the Public Opinion Research Lab (PORL) at the University of North Florida (UNF) meanwhile found a “majority of respondents”, or 57 per cent, in opposition to the bill “either strongly or somewhat”.

[snip][end]

Cue arguments about how the poll was worded, and conducted, and who was sampled.

[JoeMemphis]

I'm familiar with it. Direct democracy in a country of 300+ mil people can be very unwieldy.

Now, as to whether the peoples' representatives are doing the peoples' will, well, we do this thing called polling.

So here's what polls say.

Vast majority of Florida voters oppose ‘Don’t Say Gay’ bill – GOP is going to pass it anyway
Survey shows 34 per cent support for ‘hateful’ legislation targeting LGBT+ youth
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/worl ... 21475.html

As lawmakers passed a final version of the bill on Tuesday, a poll showed around a third of voters (34 per cent) supporting the legislation “somewhat or strongly”.

The findings published by the Public Opinion Research Lab (PORL) at the University of North Florida (UNF) meanwhile found a “majority of respondents”, or 57 per cent, in opposition to the bill “either strongly or somewhat”.

[snip][end]

Cue arguments about how the poll was worded, and conducted, and who was sampled.

We don’t govern by polls do we? If that were true there are lots of folks who would be in trouble these days. The poll that counts is Election Day. That’s where we hold people accountable for the jobs we have elected them to do. I don’t think you are suggesting we legislate based on polls. As I recall when ACA was passed the polling wasn’t favorable. In fact, it passed in a lame duck session of Congress after a wave election where the Democrats lost 6 seats in the Senate. The administration in that case disregarded the polls. But pass it did and today is the law of the land. Polling is nice to know but as you said subject to all kinds of bias. Maybe that’s why we don’t govern that way.

[ProfX]

We don’t govern by polls do we?

I wasn't saying we should. (Solely).

I was answering a question about whether this reflects the will of most Floridians, in our system of representative democracy.

[JoeMemphis]

I wasn't saying we should. (Solely).

I was answering a question about whether this reflects the will of most Floridians, in our system of representative democracy.

I guess we will have that answer on election day. The ultimate poll.

[ProfX]

Earlier, you said the problem with elections is that people are not single issue voters, therefore we can't always assume that candidates winning means their policies are all supported. There, you were not wrong.

Dunno, Joe. It's entirely possible dePutin wins re-election here in FL. All kinds of things are in play, including the viability of who's running against him. I won't be happy, but it sure looks possible. Can we conclude from that that means all his policies have overwhelming support? No, based on your own observation.

So, while on the one hand I agree polling is subject to all kinds of flaws, on the other, I note, it's the only real way to know how voters feel about specific issues, since no one votes for a politician on one single issue. As you yourself observed.

[JoeMemphis]

Earlier, you said the problem with elections is that people are not single issue voters, therefore we can't always assume that candidates winning means their policies are all supported. There, you were not wrong.

Dunno, Joe. It's entirely possible dePutin wins re-election here in FL. All kinds of things are in play, including the viability of who's running against him. I won't be happy, but it sure looks possible. Can we conclude from that that means all his policies have overwhelming support? No, based on your own observation.

So, while on the one hand I agree polling is subject to all kinds of flaws, on the other, I note, it's the only real way to know how voters feel about specific issues, since no one votes for a politician on one single issue. As you yourself observed.

Elections are based on how voters view feel about the candidate overall. We agree it doesn’t mean that we agree wholeheartedly or completely with every policy position. But as you pointed out polls are often subject to bias and while the can be informative of where and how people feel on a subject, they are often wrong. How often have we seen election polls that were wrong? I tend to have a little more faith in RCP which averages poll results among various polls over time.

[ProfX]

I kinda prefer Nate Silver and 538's method of poll averaging, since he factors in weighting, and the quality and methodology of the polls, and reliability of the pollster.

It's just another data point in a storm, I suppose, but ... so, we can ask if voters in the states where such measures have passed how they feel, but if we ask nationally ...

6 in 10 Americans oppose laws prohibiting LGBTQ lessons in elementary school: POLL
https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/10-amer ... d=83393478

The ABC News/Ipsos poll, which was conducted by Ipsos in partnership with ABC News using Ipsos' KnowledgePanel, found that 62% of Americans oppose such legislation, while 37% support it.

[snip][end]

Now ... of course, that's all Americans, asked this question overall, which really doesn't matter if they don't live in the states where such state initiatives are passing.

Of course, I think I will shock nobody if I say they have the most support among Republicans, and the least among Democrats (only 20% were in favor). I know. That's a "water is wet" finding. Also, of course, that 89% of LGBTQ voters, many of whom are of course as was noted also parents, were opposed.

[JoeMemphis]

I kinda prefer Nate Silver and 538's method of poll averaging, since he factors in weighting, and the quality and methodology of the polls, and reliability of the pollster.

It's just another data point in a storm, I suppose, but ... so, we can ask if voters in the states where such measures have passed how they feel, but if we ask nationally ...

6 in 10 Americans oppose laws prohibiting LGBTQ lessons in elementary school: POLL
https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/10-amer ... d=83393478

The ABC News/Ipsos poll, which was conducted by Ipsos in partnership with ABC News using Ipsos' KnowledgePanel, found that 62% of Americans oppose such legislation, while 37% support it.

[snip][end]

Now ... of course, that's all Americans, asked this question overall, which really doesn't matter if they don't live in the states where such state initiatives are passing.

Of course, I think I will shock nobody if I say they have the most support among Republicans, and the least among Democrats (only 20% were in favor). I know. That's a "water is wet" finding. Also, of course, that 89% of LGBTQ voters, many of whom are of course as was noted also parents, were opposed.

I wonder if there is a poll out there for parents? That’s the most representative universe. The policies affect their kids.

[carmenjonze]

As I said. If you believe all that stupid shit you are spewing the state it loud and proud in the next election and let the electorate decide what they want. Let them decide who is primarily responsible for a child. The parent or the state. You tell them you believe it’s the state. Let’s see how that goes over.

Hey, dumb, binary bigot. Most teachers ARE ALSO "the parents."

This false dilemma is also a fake either/or.

You guys don't care about parents, you only legislate on behalf of white conservative parents and their pliant minions.

You do not care about families, you only legislate on behalf of Leave it to Beaver families. Your politicians attack notraditional families and parents, and in some states are criminalizing nonconformist families who support their trans children and siblings.

You do not support "gay marriage," any more than any other Republican a-hole. You don't even listen to LGBTQ parent groups that talk about these draconian laws.