Train derailment in NE Ohio

[ZoWie]

The only real world evidence points to it being chickens coming home to roost. Too many years of railroad cost cutting, longer train lengths, and very bad labor practices.

Far as derailments go, they've been getting more frequent for years now. Those chickens again.

Cluck, cluck, cluck.

[gounion]

There have been so many lately I believe it could be domestic terrorism

The conservative mindset, conspiracies everywhere.

No, it's that corporations don't care to maintain their tracks.

[ZoWie]

It's all Hillary's fault.

[Number6]

There have been so many lately I believe it could be domestic terrorism

I doubt it's domestic terrorism. From 2019 to 2022, the number of train incidents were 11,791, 8,796, 9,347, and 9,77, respectively.

From that same time period, the number of derailments was 1,340, 1,114, 1,095, and 1,164, respectively. This works out to about 3 train derailments per day, on average.

https://safetydata.fra.dot.gov/officeof ... mmary.aspx

[gounion]

I doubt it's domestic terrorism. From 2019 to 2022, the number of train incidents were 11,791, 8,796, 9,347, and 9,77, respectively.

From that same time period, the number of derailments was 1,340, 1,114, 1,095, and 1,164, respectively. This works out to about 3 train derailments per day, on average.

https://safetydata.fra.dot.gov/officeof ... mmary.aspx

Glenn just can't bring himself to believe that corporations could be at fault for anything.

[Drak]

Funny considering the domestic terrorism line comes straight from Don Junior.

[Number6]

Glenn just can't bring himself to believe that corporations could be at fault for anything.

During our mandatory safety briefings in the AF, it was stressed that 98% of all "accidents" are preventable. Accidents are going to happen and determining the reason for them is important not just to assess what damage was caused but to prevent it from happening again. Human error is something that will never be gotten rid of simply because we are all different and although we're trained how to respond to an impeding "accident" we may not all respond in exactly the same way. The other component is equipment breakdown. Not everything is going to last which is why it's important to continually inspect, monitor, and replace/fix a machine and it's components to keep from breaking down but breakdowns will happen no matter how good a company's inspection of the equipment is. However, that doesn't excuse Norfolk Southern from liability anymore that an airplane crashing because a component of the plane failed excuses the airline company from liability.

[Motor City]

Glenn just can't bring himself to believe that corporations could be at fault for anything.

I took that he meant the rail owners and administrators were behaving so deliberately and recklessly and dangerously and so often that it amounted to terrorism. maybe he could expand on what he means.

[ZoWie]

Accidents are inevitable, but they are caused. They can be minimized and their damage can be mitigated. We do neither.

I can't speak for any other users, but the idea of domestic terrorism might have been that railroading has become so unsafe that it poses a similar threat. Personally, I don't see any terrorist intent at all. Were it that simple, there would be solutions. The terrorists in this country at the moment all seem to come from the reactionary right, who get lathered up at the mere sound of the word "woke."

The problem with the railroads is greed and neglect, and those seem inherent to the American definition of capitalism, which is basically that the guys with the gold make the rules. US business relies on cheap shipping of bulk quantities, and the railroads give it to them at a competitive price, even if it means that trains get longer while the crews get smaller and lose their paid sick leave. Of course we get these weekly rail accidents and the periodic disaster, but since when do people matter when there's a buck to be made?

The question comes down to inflation vs railroad safety and the solutions are going to be complex. Frankly I'd pay five bucks more at the market if it actually did help keep trains from posing a bigger statistical hazard than international terrorism, but I worry that my five bucks might go to stock buybacks and donations to far right lobbying groups. The issue is deep and systemic.

Basically, it's the same old problem. This country needs a reboot. Reagan Operating System might have been a viable solution in the 1980s, but it no longer fits our needs.

[gounion]

I took that he meant the rail owners and administrators were behaving so deliberately and recklessly and dangerously and so often that it amounted to terrorism. maybe he could expand on what he means.

No, he'd never blame the company. He meant that individuals were messing with tracks to cause derailments.

[ZoWie]

No evidence of that. The East Palestine one has convincing evidence that a bearing failed on a car, ultimately compromising the axle before the small overworked crew found out via the insufficiently spaced sensors. We've been having these frequent rail accidents for years now, and besides every time I read about domestic terrorism it's some righty who believes everything he sees on the Internet.

The current net.fad seems to be some kind of attempt to disable the power grid. Just like Russia in Ukraine.

[gounion]

No evidence of that. The East Palestine one has convincing evidence that a bearing failed on a car, ultimately compromising the axle before the small overworked crew found out via the insufficiently spaced sensors. We've been having these frequent rail accidents for years now, and besides every time I read about domestic terrorism it's some righty who believes everything he sees on the Internet.

The current net.fad seems to be some kind of attempt to disable the power grid. Just like Russia in Ukraine.

No, there’s been zero evidence of any of these current derailments being caused by terrorists of any stripe. Glenn just like conspiracies.

And yeah, the far-right terrorists are trying to take down the power grids these days. I guess we made it too hard to come by enough fertilizer to do a Tim McVeigh.

[ZoWie]

It wouldn't be the first idea they got from Vladimir Putin.

[ProfX]

Sigh.

But of course. It was a terrorist attack on MAGA/wypipo.

https://www.adl.org/resources/blog/extr ... stine-ohio

In the aftermath of the February 3, 2023, freight train derailment in East Palestine, Ohio, a range of misinformation and unfounded claims has emerged as extremists and conspiracy theorists leverage the event for their own political and ideological gain. This includes the white supremacist and virulently antisemitic National Justice Party (NJP), which has capitalized on the outrage and suspicions around the Norfolk incident to organize protests in Ohio and Georgia, promoting their bigoted platform to advocate for “White civil rights” in East Palestine.

[snip]

While much of the misinformation has come from well-meaning individuals concerned about environmental safety, extremists and conspiracy theorists have capitalized on the panic by alleging the derailment was a concerted attack on white Americans and an ominous indicator of future coordinated attacks on infrastructure. Popular QAnon influencers, for example, promoted theories about the derailment being part of a nefarious government plan, citing unrelated derailments across the country as evidence.

[snip]

Meanwhile, the white supremacist National Justice Party is co-opting the tragedy in East Palestine and using public outrage and confusion about the incident to advance their claims that the political system is in place to disadvantage and overlook white people.

At a February 25, 2023, demonstration outside Ohio Governor Mike DeWine’s residence in Bexley, Ohio, NJP leader Warren Balogh asked, "Why did it even take so long for them [government] to notice this? Why did it take so long for the national media to notice it? We know why...It's because they are white people. They are white people in East Palestine."

During an Ohio NJP event, group leader Michael McKevitt used the derailment to falsely claim that predominantly Black communities get more attention than predominantly white communities during environmental disasters. (*) McKevitt compared the government responses to the derailment in East Palestine, a community which NJP considers to be predominantly white, to the water crisis in Flint, Michigan, a community which NJP considers to be predominantly Black. He said, "The federal government has since poured millions of dollars of aid into restoring Flint’s water resources, whereas East Palestine and the surrounding area have yet to receive any significant aid whatsoever."

[snip]

NJP also pointed to the train derailment as “proof” of the failures of the mainstream Republican Party, which it refers to as “the party of Zionism.” The NJP alleges that Republican leaders, including DeWine and U.S. Congressmen Bill Johnson, are not advocating for their “true” constituents and are ignoring “the interests of white people.”

[snip][end]

(*) What a shock, if you've read any of the literature on environmental justice, you'd know it's the exact opposite. Superfund sites tend to overwhelmingly be in poor and minority neighborhoods. And if they're pointing to Flint as some example of how great the attention Black communities get ... wow.

BTW, it is definitely white-nats doing the attacks on the electrical grid in the U.S. ...

[Libertas]

It was an attack by antifa, by now.

America is broken.

[ZoWie]

I can't say yet whether America is broken.

Its news media certainly are.

Its transportation system isn't broken yet, but one can see the places where any such failure would start. The railroads have been a problem as long as I can remember. Infrastructure in general is pretty poor, and de-industrialization may yet break the economic system.

BTW that last thing was a Republican show all the way. They got into power with a charismatic actor for president, and they moved it all offshore to benefit the billionaire class. Steel mills became rust piles, and railroads became ticking bombs. Every city has a decaying core of Superfund sites, abandoned factories, closed or barely functioning ports, and bridges on the verge of collapse. American inventions like semiconductors spawned huge industries, but the grunt work all comes from overseas. I pass the Hughes research lab outside LA where this country invented the transistor, and think about what might have been.

[Motor City]

'People are getting sick from something': Former regional EPA admin claims feds not doing enough to serve residents after East Palestine train derailment

"People are getting sick from something, so you can't say the air and the water are okay because they obviously are not," Enck said.

Shore said they are testing for vinyl chloride as a part of air screenings, but they're not testing for all of the chemicals that were on the train.

At a press conference Sunday, KDKA's Lauren Linder asked Shore if people could be getting sick from something they're not testing.

"You know, I'm not a medical professional, and we recommend that anybody who isn't feeling well, who shows symptoms of any illness, can seek out their medical provider, a doctor, a nurse," Shore said.

The same goes for chemicals like dioxins that could have formed while vinyl chloride was burning.

"We're not currently testing for dioxins. We are considering it," Shore said. "Dioxins are ubiquitous in the environment. They were here before the accident. They will be here after, and we don't have baseline information from this area to do a proper test, but we are talking to our toxicologist and looking into it."

Enck calls this an oversight by the EPA, who she said have scientists who can figure out possible breakdown chemicals. Those might just be what's causing peoples' health issues.

At the same time, Enck said the EPA needs to also test indoor surfaces besides the air.

"People are touching the surfaces, kids are rolling around on the rug, they're sucking on their toys," Enck said. "That dermal exposure and also inhaling chemical compounds can cause adverse health impacts."

When talking about the animals dying in Ohio cant help but think about the Times Beach incidence. They had sprayed dirt roads and at horse barns and a lot of horses and other animals died.

1983 Press Release: Joint Federal/State Action Taken to Relocate Times Beach Residents

In a joint federal-state action, the Environmental Protection Agency (EPA), the Federal Emergency Management Agency (FEMA), and the State of Missouri announced today that resources have been allocated for the permanent relocation of residents of Times Beach, Missouri. The action was necessary after the Centers for Disease Control (CDC) completed analysis of extensive soil sampling in the area and advised that the hazard posed by dioxin contamination is a continuing threat to the health of citizens in the community......

...."I came here today to personally tell the citizens of Times Beach the results of EPA's sampling activities and what we are going to do," Mrs. Burford told the townspeople. "In response to the CDC's advice, EPA and FEMA have determined that permanent relocation is necessary and I am transferring to FEMA $33.1 million in Superfund monies to accomplish this. Governor Bond assures me that the State will participate in implementation of the action and will contribute 10 percent of the costs as is required under the Superfund law."

The action being taken is to protect the health and safety of the people in a flood hazard area and is not in itself an environmental solution to the dioxin contamination of Times Beach. EPA will enter into a cooperative agreement with the State of Missouri to do a remedial investigation and feasibility study of the area to determine the appropriate environmental solution.

Today's action resulted from the careful coordination of the Federal Task Force created by President Reagan in January. In addition to EPA, FEMA, and CDC, members include the Army Corps of Engineers, the Small Business Administration and residents of Times Beach.

U.S. Offers to Buy Poisoned Homes Of Times Beach

But for the people of Times Beach such explanations are almost beside the point. Federal and state officials knew as early as 1973 that dioxin had been sprayed throughout the state, and as early as 1975 that it was considered a threat to human health. Yet it was not until last spring that the EPA began moving to study the statewide extent of the problem, and not until November that testing began in Times Beach.

At that time the EPA was playing down the seriousness of the contamination in Missouri in what agency critics contend was an attempt to safeguard the Senate seat of Republican John C. Danforth, then locked in a reelection battle against Democrat Harriett Woods.

Danforth, who won the race narrowly, had complained to the EPA administrator in late October that the agency's handling of the matter "is not good enough."

On Nov. 1, a day before the election, the EPA dispatched a last-minute news release announcing a "promising" new technique to decontaminate dioxin.

Several agency officials later acknowledged that the release was "cooked up" to help the Danforth campaign and that the technology was still in the test-tube stage.

"You have to wonder if anybody in Washington really cares," said Evelyn Zuffalt, who drove a school bus in Times Beach and raised seven children there. "This buy-out answers our immediate problem, but I don't think we'll have answers for generations. I think of my children. It will be a stigma all their lives. It'll be on their insurance policies that they lived there, that they grew up there."

Jumper, Zuffalt and others called the buy-out project "only a beginning." They said the EPA and the state should compensate them for the disruption to their lives and for all future health problems. However, 16,102 Vietnam veterans exposed to dioxin through Agent Orange have sought for years without success to obtain federal compensation for health problems that they blame on the toxin......

[ZoWie]

Times Beach is an extreme case due to the common practice of spraying dioxin on the roads.

Still, dioxin is a factor in East Palestine, and the disconnect between reality and what "experts" keep saying about safety there may have a connection to this or something else.

My guess is that the tests are valid and show safe levels of whatever they're testing for, but they're not testing for everything. This is a very common situation.

[Motor City]

Times Beach is an extreme case due to the common practice of spraying dioxin on the roads.

Still, dioxin is a factor in East Palestine, and the disconnect between reality and what "experts" keep saying about safety there may have a connection to this or something else.

My guess is that the tests are valid and show safe levels of whatever they're testing for, but they're not testing for everything. This is a very common situation.

Also shows a pattern that we seen in Flint as well that public officials knew more than they let on, and to the detriment of the public and for personal and political reasons, let the public believe things were not as bad as they were, and as a result didnt do what was needed for the public until they had no other choice.

I see it as a warning for the residents here to remain vigilant and not take for granted that everything is fine.

[ZoWie]

You're right on this. I don't listen to "experts" on the Nooz, I look for data. Often it's hard to find because no one bothered to collect it.

Tom Tomorrow used to have a stock image he used for a TV screen where a guy who looks a lot like the MC on CNBC sat in front of a Nooz shoulder graphic saying, "Experts agree everything is fine," while out in the real world we saw some example of why it wasn't.

This kind of artificial reality is really what the "White Noise" book was about, and why it's a buzz now, despite the fact that such a premise is almost impossible to pull off in a movie. Movies don't do levels well. Fellini, Antonioni, or Godard could have pulled it off, but their stuff would have been too weird for US distributors to bet money on.

[ZoWie]

Authorities say seven US health investigators fell ill while probing the impact of the 3 February train derailment in East Palestine, Ohio.

According to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC), the investigator's symptoms included nausea and headaches.

Locals in East Palestine have reported similar illnesses.

The train was carrying vinyl chloride and other potentially hazardous substances.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-65141709

[ZoWie]

Authorities say seven US health investigators fell ill while probing the impact of the 3 February train derailment in East Palestine, Ohio.

According to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC), the investigator's symptoms included nausea and headaches.

Locals in East Palestine have reported similar illnesses.

[...]

The CDC investigators formed part of a team that was conducting house-to-house interviews in the area of the derailment last month, according to authorities. They immediately reported their symptoms to federal authorities after they fell ill.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-65141709