Train derailment in NE Ohio

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Motor City
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Re: Train derailment in NE Ohio

Post by Motor City »

https://twitter.com/SDonziger/status/16 ... 8827117568
Ohio train disaster is an eco-horror caused by corporate abuse. Norfolk Southern detonated the fireball below to "dispose" of cancer-causing chemicals because it was cheaper and the rails could open faster.

They "nuked" a small town for profit.
https://www.instagram.com/p/CoqqnUHOEvh/
Number6 wrote: Wed Feb 15, 2023 12:47 pm The cause of the derailment appears to be due to a faulty wheel bearing. If true, then the railroad is liable for the damages, cleanup, and long-term cost associated with the pollution.

The derailment happened on Feb 3rd and on Feb 12th the EPA is saying there it has not detected contaminants of significant levels but they're urging states using water from the Ohio River to take precautions. The EPA and the states are going to have to do long-term testing of the Ohio River water because it will take time for the chemicals leeching into the ground to make it to the river as well as to the ground water.
maintenance and staffing issues come and go normally, the concentrated wealth becomes permanent fixture and is instead leveraged against alleviating those problems.
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ZoWie
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Re: Train derailment in NE Ohio

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1. Trains used to get "hotboxes," basically an overheated wheel bearing. Slowly, with maximum arm twisting and caterwauling, railroads are converting to more modern types of bearings, but overheating is still a problem. There is a second issue, called a dragger, where for whatever reason, overheating or mechanical failure, axles break and drag on the ground. Therefore, by law, railroads have to provide sensors at regular intervals that check for both.

2. The typical procedure used to be that the engineer would drive the train, which is a full time job in itself, and someone else would check the telemetry from the detectors and let the engineer know if he was safe to "highball," aka continue at maximum permitted speed. Now, we know from what few facts have been released that this train had either a hotbox by any other name or a dragger. The investigation centers on what was done about it. What did they know, and when did they know it? There are early indications that someone on the crew knew there was a problem. If true, then the probable cause will come down to what happened afterward.

2a. The actual safety situation is in constant flux, because railroads and the government oscillate back and forth between what constitutes a competent train crew. In the current labor dispute, I believe crew size was one of the issues.

2b. There are also two kinds of brakes, e-brakes and the old mechanical kind where a drop in air pressure passes through the entire mile of cars and slowly applies the brakes.* The e-brakes are said to stop trains faster, though fast is relative with metal on metal. It just isn't that easy to stop a train. Anyway, the government and the railroads have been going back and forth on what constitutes good brakes for decades now.

3. After a series of really bad accidents culminating in an explosion wiping out part of a town in Canada, safety measures were put into place, but they have been negotiable ever since. It goes back and forth, depending on who runs the government and which lawyers the railroads have hired this year. Indeed, some trains were given stiffer requirements, but it turns out that this train, despite being over a mile long and carrying at least 50 hazardous loads, was exempt. In other words, even had drumpf not changed the law, the train wouldn't have needed to spend money on the precautions.

4. Is this any way to run a railroad? In this case, Norfolk Southern is covering up something, or is getting what may be good legal advice but which is also very bad PR. Last night, apparently on advice of counsel, their reps did not show up at the town meeting after saying they'd be there. From what I've read, the reaction of the large crowd in a school gym was somewhat short of a necktie party or torches and pitchforks, but still pretty angry. Not good PR, and it gives me the idea that they're covering up some kind of actionable gross negligence.

5. Indeed, they did not burn off the vinyl chloride to prevent an explosion. They burned it off so they could get in and fix the tracks and get revenue from them again sooner. No wonder the lawyer said to shut up and not go anywhere.

5a. Either way, you have thousands of dead fish and land animals, and that's never a good sign for human habitation.

6. We are always told that after one of these "events" it's perfectly safe to go back home. It rarely is. Then you wonder why most people see conspiracies in every situation. I think we have a clue here.

*As Glenn undoubtedly knows, air brakes are held OFF by positive air pressure. They fail safe, sort of. In other words, if there is an air loss, they come on.
"We must remember that we cannot abandon the truth and remain a free nation." --Liz Cheney, Republican, 7/21/22
Motor City
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Re: Train derailment in NE Ohio

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Another derailment
A train operated by Norfolk Southern, the same operators behind the Ohio derailment, went off the rails Thursday morning in Van Buren Township.

The first reports of the derailment came before 8:45 a.m. Thursday from the train tracks in the area of Huron River Drive between Martinsville and Haggerty roads. Aerial video showed several train cars off the tracks. The tracks were damaged, and several sets of wheels became disconnected from cars.......
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Re: Train derailment in NE Ohio

Post by ZoWie »

"We must remember that we cannot abandon the truth and remain a free nation." --Liz Cheney, Republican, 7/21/22
Glennfs
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Re: Train derailment in NE Ohio

Post by Glennfs »

ZoWie wrote: Thu Feb 16, 2023 12:10 pm 1. Trains used to get "hotboxes," basically an overheated wheel bearing. Slowly, with maximum arm twisting and caterwauling, railroads are converting to more modern types of bearings, but overheating is still a problem. There is a second issue, called a dragger, where for whatever reason, overheating or mechanical failure, axles break and drag on the ground. Therefore, by law, railroads have to provide sensors at regular intervals that check for both.

2. The typical procedure used to be that the engineer would drive the train, which is a full time job in itself, and someone else would check the telemetry from the detectors and let the engineer know if he was safe to "highball," aka continue at maximum permitted speed. Now, we know from what few facts have been released that this train had either a hotbox by any other name or a dragger. The investigation centers on what was done about it. What did they know, and when did they know it? There are early indications that someone on the crew knew there was a problem. If true, then the probable cause will come down to what happened afterward.

2a. The actual safety situation is in constant flux, because railroads and the government oscillate back and forth between what constitutes a competent train crew. In the current labor dispute, I believe crew size was one of the issues.

2b. There are also two kinds of brakes, e-brakes and the old mechanical kind where a drop in air pressure passes through the entire mile of cars and slowly applies the brakes.* The e-brakes are said to stop trains faster, though fast is relative with metal on metal. It just isn't that easy to stop a train. Anyway, the government and the railroads have been going back and forth on what constitutes good brakes for decades now.

3. After a series of really bad accidents culminating in an explosion wiping out part of a town in Canada, safety measures were put into place, but they have been negotiable ever since. It goes back and forth, depending on who runs the government and which lawyers the railroads have hired this year. Indeed, some trains were given stiffer requirements, but it turns out that this train, despite being over a mile long and carrying at least 50 hazardous loads, was exempt. In other words, even had drumpf not changed the law, the train wouldn't have needed to spend money on the precautions.

4. Is this any way to run a railroad? In this case, Norfolk Southern is covering up something, or is getting what may be good legal advice but which is also very bad PR. Last night, apparently on advice of counsel, their reps did not show up at the town meeting after saying they'd be there. From what I've read, the reaction of the large crowd in a school gym was somewhat short of a necktie party or torches and pitchforks, but still pretty angry. Not good PR, and it gives me the idea that they're covering up some kind of actionable gross negligence.

5. Indeed, they did not burn off the vinyl chloride to prevent an explosion. They burned it off so they could get in and fix the tracks and get revenue from them again sooner. No wonder the lawyer said to shut up and not go anywhere.

5a. Either way, you have thousands of dead fish and land animals, and that's never a good sign for human habitation.

6. We are always told that after one of these "events" it's perfectly safe to go back home. It rarely is. Then you wonder why most people see conspiracies in every situation. I think we have a clue here.

*As Glenn undoubtedly knows, air brakes are held OFF by positive air pressure. They fail safe, sort of. In other words, if there is an air loss, they come on.
My Uncle Kenny is from East Palestine and it is much worse than we are being told. The residents do not believe anything coming from the company or government.

Burning off the the hazard material is beyond stupid. How did Mayor Pete not step in. Personally I believe they did so because it was the most cost effective solution.

Paying off lawsuits down the road cheaper than trucking the materials
" I am a socialist " Bernie Sanders
Motor City
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Re: Train derailment in NE Ohio

Post by Motor City »

https://twitter.com/marwilliamson/statu ... 3046666240
Listen to workers and regulate the industry.

Listen to workers and regulate the industry.

Listen to workers and regulate the industry.
Ther's a similarity here with the Flint water crisis in that before it took shape Michigan residents protested and signed petitions and ultimately passed legislation to stop emergency management from taking place, instead of hearing its people and the warning the Michigan Legislature and Governor did an end run around it and legislated it in anyway leading to an emergency manager switching Flints water from Lake Huron via Detroit to the Flint River.

The recent rail strike was a similar warning that went unheeded along with the many many other unheeded warnings about money in politics and its effects on democracy.

It's a horrible situation but it's also telling us something and we and especially our public officials should listen and hear.
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Motor City
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Re: Train derailment in NE Ohio

Post by Motor City »

ZoWie wrote: Thu Feb 16, 2023 1:01 pm Mister Shaw, we have a problem.

https://www.google.com/search?q=norfolk+southern+ceo
Alan Shaw, Norfolk Southern CEO: 5 Fast Facts You Need to Know

https://heavy.com/wp-content/uploads/20 ... Letter.pdf

https://www.fec.gov/data/committee/C000 ... b=spending

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nj4CjsbuTWQ
Hes fleeing the interview

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uNSWQwpDu68
Residents near Ohio train derailment frustrated about risk of toxic exposure
In Ohio, anger and anxiety are running high nearly two weeks after a train derailment and major chemical spill. Residents there are growing increasingly frustrated saying they aren't getting answers about their risk of toxic exposure. To help understand the potential risks for residents, Geoff Bennett spoke with Peter Decarlo of Johns Hopkins University.
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Re: Train derailment in NE Ohio

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I'm listening.
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Drak
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Re: Train derailment in NE Ohio

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Does Norfolk Southern donate to DeWine's campaign?

Did DeWine take their recommendations? Did DeWine refuse Federal assistance?

The GOP is blaming the Biden admin, of course.
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Re: Train derailment in NE Ohio

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Is Donald Trump to Blame for Ohio Train Derailment?
https://www.newsweek.com/donald-trump-b ... nt-1781163

The derailment of a 150-car train carrying hazardous material in East Palestine, Ohio, was likely more severe because the Trump administration repealed a key safety rule, according to an industry insider.

[snip]

Speaking to investigative news outlet The Lever, Steven Ditmeyer, a former top official at the Federal Railroad Administration (FRA), said the "severity" of the accident was likely increased by the lack of Electronically Controlled Pneumatic (ECP) brakes.

A rule was passed under President Barack Obama that made it a requirement for trains carrying hazardous flammable materials to have ECP brakes, but this was rescinded in 2017 by the Trump administration.

[snip]

The National Transportation Safety Board, a federal agency responsible for investigating rail accidents, told The Lever that the Ohio train that derailed was not fitted with ECP brakes.

"Would ECP brakes have reduced the severity of this accident? Yes," Ditmeyer said.

Referring to opposition from within the rail industry to fitting ECP brakes, he added: "The railroads will test new features. But once they are told they have to do it ... they don't want to spend the money."

[snip][end]
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Re: Train derailment in NE Ohio

Post by Bludogdem »

And this

“Gov. DeWine says derailed Norfolk Southern train not categorized as carrying high hazardous materials”


https://www.news5cleveland.com/news/eas ... -materials
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Re: Train derailment in NE Ohio

Post by gounion »

Further evidence you can never depend upon corporations. They always put profits before human lives. They just don't care, because all that will happen is they get a fine, which is far less than they have profited being unsafe.

We need to hold the corporation and the leadership accountable. Either make the CEOs and top leaders accountable with jail terms, or have a death penalty for corporations, where the corporations will be dissolved and investors will lose their investments.
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Re: Train derailment in NE Ohio

Post by Glennfs »

gounion wrote: Fri Feb 17, 2023 3:49 pm Further evidence you can never depend upon corporations. They always put profits before human lives. They just don't care, because all that will happen is they get a fine, which is far less than they have profited being unsafe.

We need to hold the corporation and the leadership accountable. Either make the CEOs and top leaders accountable with jail terms, or have a death penalty for corporations, where the corporations will be dissolved and investors will lose their investments.
If a corporation were to receive the death penalty what happens to the corporate assets and jobs. How would the corporation be dispersed
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Re: Train derailment in NE Ohio

Post by gounion »

Glennfs wrote: Fri Feb 17, 2023 3:57 pm If a corporation were to receive the death penalty what happens to the corporate assets and jobs. How would the corporation be dispersed
Depends. First, the courts would confiscate the assets of the corporation. All debts of the corporation would be paid. It would then be sold off to other investors, who could take over the company and start fresh do what the corporation did.

The money left over would probably be distributed to the victims of the corporation's actions.

But there HAS to be consequences. They can murder, even mass murder, and then they get tiny fines, which is always a LOT less than they profited by ignoring the law. Just a cost of doing business.

It's like making a law that robbing a bank has a fine of $100 if you get caught. No reason at all to obey the law, is there?
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Re: Train derailment in NE Ohio

Post by Glennfs »

gounion wrote: Fri Feb 17, 2023 4:09 pm Depends. First, the courts would confiscate the assets of the corporation. All debts of the corporation would be paid. It would then be sold off to other investors, who could take over the company and start fresh do what the corporation did.

The money left over would probably be distributed to the victims of the corporation's actions.

But there HAS to be consequences. They can murder, even mass murder, and then they get tiny fines, which is always a LOT less than they profited by ignoring the law. Just a cost of doing business.

It's like making a law that robbing a bank has a fine of $100 if you get caught. No reason at all to obey the law, is there?
As I wrote in the other thread that would rake decades.
By the time the lawyers got done I doubt anything would be left for victims.
Investors would be paying fire sale prices.
Those shareholders are pension funds and people who have mutual funds for th eir 401s. They would be the people who would be hurt the worst
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Re: Train derailment in NE Ohio

Post by gounion »

Glennfs wrote: Fri Feb 17, 2023 4:44 pm As I wrote in the other thread that would rake decades.
By the time the lawyers got done I doubt anything would be left for victims.
Investors would be paying fire sale prices.
Those shareholders are pension funds and people who have mutual funds for th eir 401s. They would be the people who would be hurt the worst
Then go to that thread and say what YOU would do.

And no, I'd say the thousands of people that died in Bhopal at the hands of Union Carbide was hurt the worst.

But I guess that's how you see it, since conservatives worship money over human life.
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Re: Train derailment in NE Ohio

Post by Glennfs »

gounion wrote: Fri Feb 17, 2023 4:54 pm Then go to that thread and say what YOU would do.

And no, I'd say the thousands of people that died in Bhopal at the hands of Union Carbide was hurt the worst.

But I guess that's how you see it, since conservatives worship money over human life.
It is a tough subject but I don't believe destroying the economy is a viable solution
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Re: Train derailment in NE Ohio

Post by gounion »

Glennfs wrote: Fri Feb 17, 2023 5:10 pm It is a tough subject but I don't believe destroying the economy is a viable solution
Go to the other thread.
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Re: Train derailment in NE Ohio

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ProfX wrote: Fri Feb 17, 2023 2:14 pm Is Donald Trump to Blame for Ohio Train Derailment?
https://www.newsweek.com/donald-trump-b ... nt-1781163

The derailment of a 150-car train carrying hazardous material in East Palestine, Ohio, was likely more severe because the Trump administration repealed a key safety rule, according to an industry insider.

[snip]

Speaking to investigative news outlet The Lever, Steven Ditmeyer, a former top official at the Federal Railroad Administration (FRA), said the "severity" of the accident was likely increased by the lack of Electronically Controlled Pneumatic (ECP) brakes.

A rule was passed under President Barack Obama that made it a requirement for trains carrying hazardous flammable materials to have ECP brakes, but this was rescinded in 2017 by the Trump administration.

[snip]

The National Transportation Safety Board, a federal agency responsible for investigating rail accidents, told The Lever that the Ohio train that derailed was not fitted with ECP brakes.

"Would ECP brakes have reduced the severity of this accident? Yes," Ditmeyer said.

Referring to opposition from within the rail industry to fitting ECP brakes, he added: "The railroads will test new features. But once they are told they have to do it ... they don't want to spend the money."

[snip][end]
Just thought I’d add a graphic

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gounion
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Re: Train derailment in NE Ohio

Post by gounion »

Who could have foreseen it?
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Re: Train derailment in NE Ohio

Post by ZoWie »

Only anyone who has seen how lousy they maintain the condition of the tracks. This train derailed because of an overheated wheel bearing, that's confirmed, possibly leading to an axle failure, and that's for NTSB to figure out. However, the roadbed still sucks. They spend the absolute minimum on it.

It's why we can't have high speed trains in this country. The roadbed would derail them, with truly spectacular results. The only high speed train I know of is the Acela between DC and either New York or Connecticut. It's still pretty poky compared to the bullet train in Japan and the TGV in France, but it's faster than the rest. That's only because Amtrak bought the roadbed and upgraded it themselves. Amtrak can't afford to buy all the roadbed in the US, nor should it.

We spent a zillion dollars in CA to build a high speed rail line between LA and San Francisco, except that there wasn't enough money in the world for eminent domain and so if they ever finish it, a big if, it will go from Bakersfield to, well, somewhere. Kind of a waste, really.

In general, much of the problem with railroads in the US is that they lack the kind of subsidies given to airlines. The accidents don't kill as many people, and I guess dangerous chemicals are considered to be just one of those things we can't bother to deal with for once and for all because no one wants to pay for it.
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Re: Train derailment in NE Ohio

Post by gounion »

ZoWie wrote: Fri Feb 17, 2023 7:03 pm Only anyone who has seen how lousy they maintain the condition of the tracks. This train derailed because of an overheated wheel bearing, that's confirmed, possibly leading to an axle failure, and that's for NTSB to figure out. However, the roadbed still sucks. They spend the absolute minimum on it.

It's why we can't have high speed trains in this country. The roadbed would derail them, with truly spectacular results. The only high speed train I know of is the Acela between DC and either New York or Connecticut, and that's because Amtrak bought the roadbed and upgraded it themselves. Amtrak can't afford to buy all the roadbed in the US, nor should it.

In general, much of the problem with railroads in the US is that they lack the kind of subsidies given to airlines. The accidents don't kill as many people, and I guess dangerous chemicals are considered to be just one of those things we can't bother to deal with for once and for all because no one wants to pay for it.
Acela goes from DC to Philly to New York to Boston. It's awesome, if I could have taken the Acela everywhere instead of an airplane, I'd never fly again.

But it's not true high-speed like Japan and elsewhere, as they don't go on our kinds of rails.

But yeah, corporate doesn't keep up their own infrastructure. They have to be forced by law, and usually, they don't do that either. They don't care who dies.
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Re: Train derailment in NE Ohio

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I rode the Acela from DC to Penn Station, so I was sure about that part, but I wasn't sure if it maintained top speed all the way to Boston. Used to be that the electric line only went to either Hartford or New Haven, forget which, and they switched to diesels for the rest of the trip, at a lower speed. But that was pre Covid when we traveled a lot more.

I remember blowing right past a bar in either NJ or DE at a speed which probably sloshed some of the drinks in the place. That's the one stretch where they could haul serious ass.

The Acela is a real good train. I'd ride it again. It beats flying at that distance, by plenty. The regular trains are the typical Amtrak lousy service.
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Re: Train derailment in NE Ohio

Post by gounion »

ZoWie wrote: Fri Feb 17, 2023 7:14 pm I rode the Acela from DC to Penn Station, so I was sure about that part, but I wasn't sure if it maintained top speed all the way to Boston. Used to be that the electric line only went to either Hartford or New Haven, which, and they switched to diesels for the rest of the trip, at a lower speed. But that was pre Covid when we traveled a lot more.

I remember blowing right past a bar in either NJ or DE at a speed which probably sloshed some of the drinks in the place.

The Acela is a real good train. I'd ride it again. It beats flying at that distance, by plenty. The regular trains are the typical Amtrak lousy service.
No, pre-COVID I took it all the way to Boston. It was awesome. And no, it only hits the top speed of 150 for 50 miles out of 457 total miles. From New York to DC, it averages 80 mph including stops.

They're putting in a new Avelia Liberty trainset on the route starting late this year.
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Re: Train derailment in NE Ohio

Post by ZoWie »

I highly recommend train travel in the NE Corridor aka Bosnywash. It beats flying by quite a bit, and it beats driving by magnitudes.
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