Human Trafficking?

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ZoWie
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Re: Human Trafficking?

Post by ZoWie »

The point is that the migrants were told that there would be good accomodations and paying jobs awaiting them in California once they got off the plane. This was a lie, since California hadn't been consulted at all. That makes it a provocative move by a governor working hard to raise his profile during a presidential run. All politics.
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ProfX
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Re: Human Trafficking?

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Yeah, the country's schizophrenic. First we bring in the Chinese in the 1850s to build the railroads. Then, under heartless conditions, they started using opium in opium dens throughout California. Boom the first war on drugs, and nativist war on Chinese people. "Those opium smokers are selling our white women into slavery." (Cue Fu Manchu.) Shortly after that, we pass the Chinese Exclusion Act and essentially ban Chinese from coming to this country for decades (until the 1940s).

We really have to make up our minds. DePutin seems to have run on the usual "torch of freedom" stuff saying we'd take in the Cubans, Nicaraguans, and Venezuelans fleeing the Commies of those countries. Except when they actually get here, well we basically drop them somewhere else where they can just die in the streets. The Statue of Liberty now has a stop sign.

All I know is there's no reason to leave 12+ million people in this country in the shadows. We know we can't deport them all. And it sure would be better if they were taxpayers and permanent residents whose residence is known instead of having to be guessed. And people can't exploit them into the modern day equivalent of child and other slavery. But then people start muttering the infamous "a" word and the discussion ends there.
Last edited by ProfX on Wed Jun 07, 2023 1:09 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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ProfX
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Re: Human Trafficking?

Post by ProfX »

ZoWie wrote: Wed Jun 07, 2023 12:57 pm The point is that the migrants were told that there would be good accomodations and paying jobs awaiting them in California once they got off the plane. This was a lie, since California hadn't been consulted at all. That makes it a provocative move by a governor working hard to raise his profile during a presidential run. All politics.
Transporting people under false pretenses is a crime called kidnapping. They were not even told where they were going in many cases. Just that "they would be taken care of" if they got on the bus/plane. Whatever political motivations it is hidden under.

How I see it is Biden got rid of Trump policies because they were inhumane. Which is a very good reason for me. The only problem I have is what stuff was left in place.
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JoeMemphis

Re: Human Trafficking?

Post by JoeMemphis »

ZoWie wrote: Wed Jun 07, 2023 12:57 pm The point is that the migrants were told that there would be good accomodations and paying jobs awaiting them in California once they got off the plane. This was a lie, since California hadn't been consulted at all. That makes it a provocative move by a governor working hard to raise his profile during a presidential run. All politics.
I get that’s what’s been reported.

The Feds have shipped thousands of migrants all over the country without consulting anybody locally. Have done it in the dead of night. And yet folks are upset over allegations for 20 or 30. Funny how that goes. Those migrants are here because we have a POTUS who has a real peculiar way of securing our borders. He threw open the door. Not the governors of border states. And your Gov and your state is a sanctuary state. Remember. You welcome migrants to the point where you would ignore federal immigration laws and refuse to cooperate with ICE.

The person you should be complaining to is Biden. He created this mess. He refuses to do anything meaningful about it.
JoeMemphis

Re: Human Trafficking?

Post by JoeMemphis »

ProfX wrote: Wed Jun 07, 2023 1:02 pm Yeah, the country's schizophrenic. First we bring in the Chinese in the 1850s to build the railroads. Then, under heartless conditions, they started using opium in opium dens throughout California. Boom the first war on drugs, and nativist war on Chinese people. "Those opium smokers are selling our white women into slavery." (Cue Fu Manchu.) Shortly after that, we pass the Chinese Exclusion Act and essentially ban Chinese from coming to this country for decades (until the 1940s).

We really have to make up our minds. DePutin seems to have run on the usual "torch of freedom" stuff saying we'd take in the Cubans, Nicaraguans, and Venezuelans fleeing the Commies of those countries. Except when they actually get here, well we basically drop them somewhere else where they can just die in the streets. The Statue of Liberty now has a stop sign.

All I know is there's no reason to leave 12+ million people in this country in the shadows. We know we can't deport them all. And it sure would be better if they were taxpayers and permanent residents whose residence is known instead of having to be guessed. But then people start muttering the infamous "a" word and the discussion ends there.
I have no problem with allowing migrants to work and pay taxes. That is no excuse for the current administrations open border policies. This isn’t the 1850’s or 1940’s. You can blame todays mismanagement and incompetence on the 1850’s or 1940’s. There’s no excuse for this willful and gross negligence. None whatsoever.
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ZoWie
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Re: Human Trafficking?

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There's plenty of blame to go around. It's a bad situation, and I don't see anyone on either side of the aisle doing the slightest thing to actually work on a solution. It's a classic case of an entire crisis falling through the cracks in our process, and it's gone on for many years now.

Actually the Statue of Liberty is open-carrying an AR-15.
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Re: Human Trafficking?

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JoeMemphis wrote: Wed Jun 07, 2023 12:53 pm Biden inherited a border that was much better controlled. He then reversed most of what was working because he didn’t like the guy who put the policies in place and replaced them with policies that clearly don’t work. His reasoning was purely political and had nothing to do with what was or was not working. It was Trumps policy so he threw it out consequences be damned. That’s just plain stupid and reckless. And the consequences are an explosion in the numbers. So I say send as many of these folks as want to go to sanctuary cities and states because that’s what those governments want and pride themselves on. They should be careful what they ask for.
imo, you'll never solve the border problem until you solve the socioeconomic problems South America has. To do that you have to understand the history of why the breakdown. You can't just write it off as some socialist plot and them now wanting to escape to the "American dream" that some here so adamantly adore.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smedley_Butler#References
I spent 33 years and four months in active military service and during that period I spent most of my time as a high class muscle man for Big Business, for Wall Street and the bankers. In short, I was a racketeer; a gangster for capitalism. I helped make Mexico and especially Tampico safe for American oil interests in 1914. I helped make Haiti and Cuba a decent place for the National City Bank boys to collect revenues in. I helped in the raping of half a dozen Central American republics for the benefit of Wall Street. I helped purify Nicaragua for the International Banking House of Brown Brothers in 1902–1912. I brought light to the Dominican Republic for the American sugar interests in 1916. I helped make Honduras right for the American fruit companies in 1903. In China in 1927 I helped see to it that Standard Oil went on its way unmolested. Looking back on it, I might have given Al Capone a few hints. The best he could do was to operate his racket in three districts. I operated on three continents.
(recalled that one right off the bat. :) )
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Re: Human Trafficking?

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We did the same thing to the Mexicans as what was done to the Chinese. i.e. Reefer Madness.
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ProfX
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Re: Human Trafficking?

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Yes, yes we did. That particular bit of 1930s propaganda started calling it marijuana because they made it sound like it was coming into our country from Mexico on the backs of wetbacks and Pachuco zoot-suiters. Sorta covering over the fact that the herb was grown by George Washington, Thomas Jefferson, and other founding fathers, and is as all-American as, well, apple pie. Been here since well before 1776.

While I agree the problems of today are not the same of previous epochs, patterns and tendencies remain the same, notably nativism, scapegoating, and each generation of immigrants wanting to pull up the ladder after they arrived. And immigrants being blamed for a drug problem which is quite squarely homegrown.

Yeah, nobody wants to talk about how our misadventurous foreign policies in the 80s screwed up the countries of Central America (moreso than South, though there was plenty of that, too) and started the journey toward "el norte" for so many. Thanks for reminding folks.
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Re: Human Trafficking?

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i'm tired of solely focusing on the tree and losing sight of the forest.
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JoeMemphis

Re: Human Trafficking?

Post by JoeMemphis »

ZoWie wrote: Wed Jun 07, 2023 1:14 pm There's plenty of blame to go around. It's a bad situation, and I don't see anyone on either side of the aisle doing the slightest thing to actually work on a solution. It's a classic case of an entire crisis falling through the cracks in our process, and it's gone on for many years now.

Actually the Statue of Liberty is open-carrying an AR-15.
Border security is the Presidents job. He is either up to it or he is not. The currently border policies are his. You can’t blame the fact they aren’t working on Trump. Biden threw out most of those policies and put in place policies that encouraged and allowed these migrants to enter the country.
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Re: Human Trafficking?

Post by bradman »

JoeMemphis wrote: Wed Jun 07, 2023 4:36 pm Border security is the Presidents job. He is either up to it or he is not. The currently border policies are his. You can’t blame the fact they aren’t working on Trump. Biden threw out most of those policies and put in place policies that encouraged and allowed these migrants to enter the country.
So, Biden gave them hope. A chance at freedom from want, freedom from fear. That bastard. What the hell is he thinking?
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Re: Human Trafficking?

Post by JoeMemphis »

bradman wrote: Wed Jun 07, 2023 4:57 pm So, Biden gave them hope. A chance at freedom from want, freedom from fear. That bastard. What the hell is he thinking?
Hope is not a strategy. Hope is not a plan. We do have immigration laws. They’re people out there who have applied legally to enter this country, who have waited patiently and followed the rules. What about their “hope”? Explain to me how this is fair? What about the people who live and work along the border? They hope to live a peaceful and happy life. What about their rights and their hopes and dreams? It’s easy to promise hope when it costs the promisor nothing. When other people have to sacrifice. Those people “hope” the people they elect will follow the law and “hope” the people they elect will care as much for them as they do for people who cross our borders illegally.
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Re: Human Trafficking?

Post by bradman »

JoeMemphis wrote: Wed Jun 07, 2023 5:11 pm Hope is not a strategy. Hope is not a plan. We do have immigration laws. They’re people out there who have applied legally to enter this country, who have waited patiently and followed the rules. What about their “hope”? Explain to me how this is fair? What about the people who live and work along the border? They hope to live a peaceful and happy life. What about their rights and their hopes and dreams? It’s easy to promise hope when it costs the promisor nothing. When other people have to sacrifice. Those people “hope” the people they elect will follow the law and “hope” the people they elect will care as much for them as they do for people who cross our borders illegally.
And it perpetuates. We're never going to solve the problem if it's only "we" we think about.

They are coming here for a reason. The reason is universal, hope.

Sorry Joe. i read what was written above and i can't help but think selfishness. What about me.
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JoeMemphis

Re: Human Trafficking?

Post by JoeMemphis »

bradman wrote: Wed Jun 07, 2023 6:28 pm And it perpetuates. We're never going to solve the problem if it's only "we" we think about.

They are coming here for a reason. The reason is universal, hope.

Sorry Joe. i read what was written above and i can't help but think selfishness. What about me.
Really. That’s what you think? What do you think about the ranchers who live along the border who can’t go outside unarmed? The folks in NYC bitch about a few thousand and yet border states deal with much more. Is NYC selfish? Are those ranchers and families who live along the border selfish? Is it selfish of all the folks who wait patiently to come into this country legally? What about fairness? Does that play into the thinking here at all?

Biden opens the door to all these folks and he has no plan what to do with them. Not now. Not in 5 years. It’s easy to be generous when other people make all the sacrifices. He’s making promises for political purposes that other people have to keep. That’s selfish. We have immigration laws. Laws he swore to uphold. Is it selfish to expect the man to do his job? I don’t think so.
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Re: Human Trafficking?

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JoeMemphis wrote: Wed Jun 07, 2023 6:54 pm Really. That’s what you think? What do you think about the ranchers who live along the border who can’t go outside unarmed? The folks in NYC bitch about a few thousand and yet border states deal with much more. Is NYC selfish? Are those ranchers and families who live along the border selfish? Is it selfish of all the folks who wait patiently to come into this country legally? What about fairness? Does that play into the thinking here at all?

Biden opens the door to all these folks and he has no plan what to do with them. Not now. Not in 5 years. It’s easy to be generous when other people make all the sacrifices. He’s making promises for political purposes that other people have to keep. That’s selfish. We have immigration laws. Laws he swore to uphold. Is it selfish to expect the man to do his job? I don’t think so.
Yes, that's how i think. Until god gets his hands on them, we have a moral obligation to take care of the downtrodden. It's just that simple.
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JoeMemphis

Re: Human Trafficking?

Post by JoeMemphis »

bradman wrote: Wed Jun 07, 2023 8:08 pm Yes, that's how i think. Until god gets his hands on them, we have a moral obligation to take care of the downtrodden. It's just that simple.
I highly doubt Biden’s border policy decisions have anything to do at all with a moral obligation to the downtrodden. Is it moral to bring them here with no plan on what to do after they get here? Is it moral to act like they are all gonna show up for a hearing in three years? Is it moral to act as if this is all about asylum when you know that even if denied asylum they won’t be deported. This whole policy is a lie. A lie told or represented by the administration to the public. Is that moral? A policy built on lies and misrepresentations is not a moral policy. Why should any of us trust a government that does business that way? There are victims of this “policy” in this country. Is that moral? Who do we see about that? Who represents them? Who stands up for them?
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Re: Human Trafficking?

Post by bradman »

JoeMemphis wrote: Wed Jun 07, 2023 9:16 pm I highly doubt Biden’s border policy decisions have anything to do at all with a moral obligation to the downtrodden. Is it moral to bring them here with no plan on what to do after they get here? Is it moral to act like they are all gonna show up for a hearing in three years? Is it moral to act as if this is all about asylum when you know that even if denied asylum they won’t be deported. This whole policy is a lie. A lie told or represented by the administration to the public. Is that moral? A policy built on lies and misrepresentations is not a moral policy. Why should any of us trust a government that does business that way? There are victims of this “policy” in this country. Is that moral? Who do we see about that? Who represents them? Who stands up for them?
i'm a bit confused on what you mean by "bring them here". Nobody that i know of is "bringing them here". They are coming here on their own accord.

[bold]It's difficult to imagine that a moral obligation doesn't have something to do with Biden's border policy. However short it falls.
I am not a member of any organized political party. I am a Democrat. [Will Rogers]
JoeMemphis

Re: Human Trafficking?

Post by JoeMemphis »

bradman wrote: Wed Jun 07, 2023 11:03 pm i'm a bit confused on what you mean by "bring them here". Nobody that i know of is "bringing them here". They are coming here on their own accord.

[bold]It's difficult to imagine that a moral obligation doesn't have something to do with Biden's border policy. However short it falls.
When you signal to the world that you are going to have a lax to nonexistent border policy, you are basically inviting and/or encouraging people to come. Now the administration can “deny” that’s what they did but the numbers suggest otherwise.

It may be difficult for you to imagine but Biden spent 50 years as a Senator. Senators (esp long serving Senators) have been on both sides of most issues numerous times. Their moral compass is whatever gets them elected. A few examples, the filibuster, crime, work and welfare, the debt ceiling, border fencing etc,etc,etc. Their morals are driven by political ideology and that changes with the polls.

IMO, this disregard for enforcing existing law by POTUS does nothing but undermine confidence in the very government institutions he manages and want us to trust. That’s squarely on him. That just means that next time someone else wants to ignore or choose not to enforce the law, the precedent is set. People who think those laws are immoral or inhumane will simply ignore them or refuse to enforce them. We used to be able to have confidence that laws would be obeyed and enforced. Not anymore. It certainly depends on where you choose to live. So much for our “shared” values.
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Re: Human Trafficking?

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Immigrants are being brought here by smugglers, etc, but that's not why they leave. They leave because if they stay where they are, they die. If economics don't get them, the gangs and/or the terrorists will.

The problem will continue until it is addressed at the roots, which are global. Local thinking helps, but it doesn't attack the problem, so it persists, year after dreary year, like an itch no one can scratch.

Global thinking is necessary, or it gets worse, and if the climate doesn't get us, the migrant issue might do so just fine. It's not just the US, you know. They're having tremendous problems in Europe.

Blaming Biden for not deploying the military along the border, staging scary displays of force, rounding up anyone without a green card and/or ID, banning immigration altogether, or whatever, does not solve the problem when it is a life and death issue for the migrants. They will risk being bombed, shot, arrested, spat on, or whatever because if they don't leave home, they die anyway.

Personally, I would not advise anyone in a depressed area to uproot and expect a welcome in the United States, but that's rational thinking and it is not a rational problem.
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JoeMemphis

Re: Human Trafficking?

Post by JoeMemphis »

ZoWie wrote: Thu Jun 08, 2023 11:04 am Immigrants are being brought here by smugglers, etc, but that's not why they leave. They leave because if they stay where they are, they die. If economics don't get them, the gangs and/or the terrorists will.

The problem will continue until it is addressed at the roots, which are global. Local thinking helps, but it doesn't attack the problem, so it persists, year after dreary year, like an itch no one can scratch.

Global thinking is necessary, or it gets worse, and if the climate doesn't get us, the migrant issue might do so just fine. It's not just the US, you know. They're having tremendous problems in Europe.

Blaming Biden for not deploying the military along the border, staging scary displays of force, rounding up anyone without a green card and/or ID, banning immigration altogether, or whatever, does not solve the problem when it is a life and death issue for the migrants. They will risk being bombed, shot, arrested, spat on, or whatever because if they don't leave home, they die anyway.

Personally, I would not advise anyone in a depressed area to uproot and expect a welcome in the United States, but that's rational thinking and it is not a rational problem.
My understanding is that the majority of those who apply for asylum do not qualify. That's what's been reported. So if someone has better information, please provide. But if true, then the vast majority of folks coming across our border aren't here because of life and death issues but rather economic issues. If true that means we are ignoring our existing immigration laws and allowing people to enter the country ahead of people who have applied legally and have waited patiently to enter the country legally.

I understand your point about global thinking and local thinking. The problem is I don't believe the folks making policy are thinking at all. If they are thinking, it is political thinking and nothing else.

I have not called for Biden to deploy the military. My expectation is that he enforce the laws on the books and not just wave to people coming across the border. He knows and Mayorkas knows that most of these folks don't qualify for asylum and they both know that once in, they aren't going to be deported if at some future date in two or three years they happen to show up at an asylum hearing and are denied asylum. Too yeah, that's deception and misrepresentation to the public. So yeah,, the lack of policy, the lack of a plan for these people and the misrepresentation of the facts is under the control of this administration and this POTUS. Its fair to blame him for it. He wanted the job. He got the job. He's accountable for the results.
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Re: Human Trafficking?

Post by gounion »

JoeMemphis wrote: Thu Jun 08, 2023 7:51 am When you signal to the world that you are going to have a lax to nonexistent border policy, you are basically inviting and/or encouraging people to come. Now the administration can “deny” that’s what they did but the numbers suggest otherwise.

It may be difficult for you to imagine but Biden spent 50 years as a Senator. Senators (esp long serving Senators) have been on both sides of most issues numerous times. Their moral compass is whatever gets them elected. A few examples, the filibuster, crime, work and welfare, the debt ceiling, border fencing etc,etc,etc. Their morals are driven by political ideology and that changes with the polls.

IMO, this disregard for enforcing existing law by POTUS does nothing but undermine confidence in the very government institutions he manages and want us to trust. That’s squarely on him. That just means that next time someone else wants to ignore or choose not to enforce the law, the precedent is set. People who think those laws are immoral or inhumane will simply ignore them or refuse to enforce them. We used to be able to have confidence that laws would be obeyed and enforced. Not anymore. It certainly depends on where you choose to live. So much for our “shared” values.
Get off your high horse. Let's just remember how the south treated blacks and refused to abide by the Civil Rights Act and Voting Rights Act.

Texas has ignored federal law for decades now. Clean up your own party before you start pretending the left is so damned terrible. And let's remember that it was the GW Bush administration that made sure it was easy for corporations to hire illegals.

And I wouldn't try to get any additions made to your house now, because since your worshiped Governor DeSantis signed the nasty anti-immigration bill into law, construction and agriculture in Florida has ground to a halt since there's suddenly no one around to do the work.
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Re: Human Trafficking?

Post by Glennfs »

gounion wrote: Thu Jun 08, 2023 2:27 pm Get off your high horse. Let's just remember how the south treated blacks and refused to abide by the Civil Rights Act and Voting Rights Act.

Texas has ignored federal law for decades now. Clean up your own party before you start pretending the left is so damned terrible. And let's remember that it was the GW Bush administration that made sure it was easy for corporations to hire illegals.

And I wouldn't try to get any additions made to your house now, because since your worshiped Governor DeSantis signed the nasty anti-immigration bill into law, construction and agriculture in Florida has ground to a halt since there's suddenly no one around to do the work.
https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/rest ... -recession

Housing in Florida is booming
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gounion
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Re: Human Trafficking?

Post by gounion »

Glennfs wrote: Thu Jun 08, 2023 6:52 pm https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/rest ... -recession

Housing in Florida is booming
It won't be without workers. https://www.local10.com/news/local/2023 ... -industry/
Videos circulating on social media show several construction sites in Florida abandoned by immigrant workers allegedly because of the state’s new immigration law signed by Governor Ron DeSantis last week.

The bill provides $12 million for DeSantis’ migrant relocation initiative, which drew national attention last year when the governor flew a group of South American migrants from Texas to Martha’s Vineyard, Massachusetts, a move intended to protest federal immigration policy.

The measure also expands requirements for businesses with more than 25 staffers to use E-Verify, a federal system that determines if employees can legally work in the U.S. It prohibits local governments from providing money to organizations that issue identification cards to people illegally in the country and invalidates out-of-state driver’s licenses held by undocumented immigrants.

Local 10′s Hatzel Vela went searching for answers, stopping at two Home Depots, where it is common to see laborers waiting for work.

Many of them are Cubans who are waiting for their immigration paperwork to be processed and would not go on camera.

One man said he was not in favor of the law and called it discriminatory against migrants. He said people are scared and said the number of workers outside places like Home Depot has dwindled.

Another worker, originally from Havana, said there was fear. But he thinks this may increase pay for workers who do have papers, as there will be less competition from those who don’t.

Last week, Local 10 News checked in with migrant advocates who warned about the devastating effects the new law may have on agriculture and prices at the grocery store.

Because of fear, they believe farm and hospitality workers may go elsewhere and create an economic gap in Florida.

“We know that the core economic engines of South Florida: agriculture, construction, hospital, and tourism are being staffed by immigrant workers. It’s immigrant workers who allow South Florida’s economy to be made possible,” said Oscar Londoño, We Count! Co-Executive Director.

On Monday, DeSantis was asked about migrants fleeing the state. He didn’t directly address the issue, but said: “You can’t build a strong economy based on illegality.”
Actually, that's what we've done for decades.
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Re: Human Trafficking?

Post by gounion »

Let's just remember the lesson of Kansas Governor Sam Brownback, that nearly bankrupted and destroyed Kansas with his far-right policies. I remember Glenn admitting he was a disaster, saying "he just moved too fast", when the reality is, conservatism doesn't work.

Ron DeSantis is doing the same thing to Florida, implementing wild far-right policies that are hurting the state. A six-week abortion ban, the war on Disney (the largest employer in the state), the war on education and teachers, the war on gays and trans, the war on black history and the war on immigration is hurting the state, just like what Brownback did to Kansas. The lawsuits are just starting. https://www.vanityfair.com/news/2023/06 ... -taxpayers
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