Florida: Slavery taught job skills!

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ProfX
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Re: Florida: Slavery taught job skills!

Post by ProfX »

BTW:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lynching_ ... ted_States

According to the Tuskegee Institute, of the 4,743 people lynched between 1882 and 1968, 1,297 were listed as "white". The Tuskegee Institute, which kept the most complete records, documented victims internally as "Negro", "white", "Chinese", and occasionally as "Mexican" or "Indian", but merged these into only two categories of Black or white in the tallies it published. Mexican, Chinese, and Native American lynching victims were tallied as white. Particularly in the West, minorities such as Chinese, Native Americans, Mexicans, and others were also lynching victims. The lynching of Mexicans and Mexican Americans in the Southwest was long overlooked in American history, when attention was focused on the treatment of African Americans in the South.

[snip]

Yes, "whites" were lynched, but they often were member of other ethnic minority groups, such as Leo Frank, the Jewish person whose lynching resulted in the founding of the ADL. Or, in fact, they really weren't even "whites" (the way the Institute categorized it, that could include Native or Asian people, essentially any non-Black persons).
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Toonces
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Re: Florida: Slavery taught job skills!

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Ah, yes, the ADL. That organization that is destroying Twitter

It's not been Musk that's damaged Twitter, it's all been ADL's fault.

Musk will have you know that he's against anti-semitism of all kinds and that the problems Twitter is having with advertisers is because of the Jews.

Sorry. Musk is a dick. Carry on.
JoeMemphis

Re: Florida: Slavery taught job skills!

Post by JoeMemphis »

ProfX wrote: Mon Sep 04, 2023 6:46 pm BTW:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lynching_ ... ted_States

According to the Tuskegee Institute, of the 4,743 people lynched between 1882 and 1968, 1,297 were listed as "white". The Tuskegee Institute, which kept the most complete records, documented victims internally as "Negro", "white", "Chinese", and occasionally as "Mexican" or "Indian", but merged these into only two categories of Black or white in the tallies it published. Mexican, Chinese, and Native American lynching victims were tallied as white. Particularly in the West, minorities such as Chinese, Native Americans, Mexicans, and others were also lynching victims. The lynching of Mexicans and Mexican Americans in the Southwest was long overlooked in American history, when attention was focused on the treatment of African Americans in the South.

[snip]

Yes, "whites" were lynched, but they often were member of other ethnic minority groups, such as Leo Frank, the Jewish person whose lynching resulted in the founding of the ADL. Or, in fact, they really weren't even "whites" (the way the Institute categorized it, that could include Native or Asian people, essentially any non-Black persons).
In your opinion, under Florida law, can the history you just presented be taught just as you presented it in public schools?
Glennfs
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Re: Florida: Slavery taught job skills!

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JoeMemphis wrote: Tue Sep 05, 2023 8:48 am In your opinion, under Florida law, can the history you just presented be taught just as you presented it in public schools?
My point is the way lynching are spoken about by liberals a person would believe there were 1200 a year not 1200 over 80 years.
Yes it should be taught but at the appropriate age. Also all of our country's good history should also be taught. On at a minimum of an equal basis if not far more. Maybe 60/40 or 75/25.
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Re: Florida: Slavery taught job skills!

Post by Glennfs »

Toonces wrote: Tue Sep 05, 2023 8:40 am Ah, yes, the ADL. That organization that is destroying Twitter

It's not been Musk that's damaged Twitter, it's all been ADL's fault.

Musk will have you know that he's against anti-semitism of all kinds and that the problems Twitter is having with advertisers is because of the Jews.

Sorry. Musk is a dick. Carry on.
Musk definitely has a problem with Jewish people. Almost as much as Muslim's like the Minnesota congresswoman.
" I am a socialist " Bernie Sanders
JoeMemphis

Re: Florida: Slavery taught job skills!

Post by JoeMemphis »

Glennfs wrote: Tue Sep 05, 2023 9:00 am My point is the way lynching are spoken about by liberals a person would believe there were 1200 a year not 1200 over 80 years.
Yes it should be taught but at the appropriate age. Also all of our country's good history should also be taught. On at a minimum of an equal basis if not far more. Maybe 60/40 or 75/25.
I don’t think anyone should argue with teaching subject matter at the appropriate age. The question that keeps getting raised is more what and how things are taught. I thought the Prof summary of the history of lynching was well presented and I wouldn’t have an issue with that being taught in that manner in public schools. So my question to him is whether he felt that was permissible under Florida law.
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ProfX
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Re: Florida: Slavery taught job skills!

Post by ProfX »

Hard to tell, given the ambiguity of the law and the capriciousness of our state government.

I was just looking over some of the stuff that the state demanded be removed or modified from AP African American History.

Some of these removals are ridiculous.
https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics ... n-desantis

There is no good or bad history. Just history. And all of it should be taught.

As for what's age appropriate, well, yeah, I wouldn't show photos of lynchings to 1st graders. I get that. It's just that I'd prefer these decisions be made by school boards, not politicians in Tally.

But no, I don't see a problem with 1st graders reading a children's book written for their age group about Ruby Bridges. Of which there are several.
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Re: Florida: Slavery taught job skills!

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Glennfs wrote: Tue Sep 05, 2023 9:00 am My point is the way lynching are spoken about by liberals a person would believe there were 1200 a year not 1200 over 80 years.
Yes it should be taught but at the appropriate age. Also all of our country's good history should also be taught. On at a minimum of an equal basis if not far more. Maybe 60/40 or 75/25.
Jingoism isn’t history. It’s propaganda.
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Re: Florida: Slavery taught job skills!

Post by ProfX »

Do we impose ratios on how we teach history of Germany? Russia? Japan? China? The Roman Empire? The whole idea of classifying history as good or bad is pointless. As if there's any objective agreement on all these topics. Was dropping an atomic bomb on Nagasaki "good" or "bad"? Oppenheimer has revived this discussion. It may have been necessary, historians continue to debate that, might have prevented a land invasion of Japan which could have even been more costly and horrible. Did that make it "good" or "bad"? I just say tell people about it and let them decide. People argued about it then, and argue about it now.

We live in an age where nuclear annihilation is a present reality. That's the legacy of what Oppenheimer left us with. That doesn't make him a good or bad man. At best, I would say, a complicated man. Like most of us.
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Re: Florida: Slavery taught job skills!

Post by bird »

Glennfs wrote: Tue Sep 05, 2023 9:00 am My point is the way lynching are spoken about by liberals a person would believe there were 1200 a year not 1200 over 80 years.
Yes it should be taught but at the appropriate age. Also all of our country's good history should also be taught. On at a minimum of an equal basis if not far more. Maybe 60/40 or 75/25.
Your position is stupid.

Do you not think that Black kids are taught at an early age about this? Why should a white man get to decide how the actions of white people that caused death to non-whites should be taught? Age appropriate? What a typical conservative cop out.

As for history? You teach it ALL. All the warts, all the good stuff including how alleged good stuff damaged others.

60/40 or 75/25 is propaganda, period.
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Re: Florida: Slavery taught job skills!

Post by bird »

JoeMemphis wrote: Tue Sep 05, 2023 9:16 am I don’t think anyone should argue with teaching subject matter at the appropriate age. The question that keeps getting raised is more what and how things are taught. I thought the Prof summary of the history of lynching was well presented and I wouldn’t have an issue with that being taught in that manner in public schools. So my question to him is whether he felt that was permissible under Florida law.
You don’t get to decide what is “age appropriate”. That is for people taught to educate children. Not you. Not Glen. Not DeathSantis. Not some bullshit called “parents’ rights” which doesn’t exist.
JoeMemphis

Re: Florida: Slavery taught job skills!

Post by JoeMemphis »

bird wrote: Tue Sep 05, 2023 9:57 am You don’t get to decide what is “age appropriate”. That is for people taught to educate children. Not you. Not Glen. Not DeathSantis. Not some bullshit called “parents’ rights” which doesn’t exist.
You don’t get to decide what I get to decide. You don’t get to decide what is taught in Fl or Tn or anywhere else you don’t vote. Voters decide in this country who gets to make these decisions. Do you like in Fl? I don’t think so.

That being said. I stand by my previous statement whether you like it or agree with it or not.
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Re: Florida: Slavery taught job skills!

Post by gounion »

JoeMemphis wrote: Tue Sep 05, 2023 10:23 am You don’t get to decide what I get to decide. You don’t get to decide what is taught in Fl or Tn or anywhere else you don’t vote. Voters decide in this country who gets to make these decisions. Do you like in Fl? I don’t think so.

That being said. I stand by my previous statement whether you like it or agree with it or not.
Ah yes, Florida, where the courts overturn the crazy idiots in charge.
Glennfs
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Re: Florida: Slavery taught job skills!

Post by Glennfs »

bird wrote: Tue Sep 05, 2023 9:57 am You don’t get to decide what is “age appropriate”. That is for people taught to educate children. Not you. Not Glen. Not DeathSantis. Not some bullshit called “parents’ rights” which doesn’t exist.
You guys on the left can't stand it when parents get involved in what is being taught in school. Especially when it messes up your agenda of indoctrination.

Yes there are parents rights. In fact it is the parents who are supposed to be running the school. It is 100pct up to the parents to decide what is appropriate and at what age.

Because you see those people who are taught to educate children work for the parents.
" I am a socialist " Bernie Sanders
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Re: Florida: Slavery taught job skills!

Post by gounion »

Glennfs wrote: Tue Sep 05, 2023 10:58 am You guys on the left can't stand it when parents get involved in what is being taught in school. Especially when it messes up your agenda of indoctrination.

Yes there are parents rights. In fact it is the parents who are supposed to be running the school. It is 100pct up to the parents to decide what is appropriate and at what age.

Because you see those people who are taught to educate children work for the parents.
The problem is when a tiny group of loud adults try to force their views on everyone. Like in Florida - most of the banned books are happening because of just a few individuals. Most Floridians don’t want to ban books.
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Re: Florida: Slavery taught job skills!

Post by gounion »

What’s next, Glenn? Gonna start burning books too? https://www.rawstory.com/friday-night-l ... a-schools/
For many, "Friday Night Lights" is a beloved sports journalism classic dealing with the struggles and triumphs of a high school football team in a small Texas town.

Others, however, apparently think the book is worthy of being banned from school libraries.

USA Today reports that "Friday Night Lights" author Buzz Bissinger was recently horrified to learn that the Mason City Community School District in Iowa had voted to remove his book thanks to a state law that requires school libraries only house books that are "age-appropriate” and do not contain “descriptions or visual depictions of a sex act.”

Once Bissinger got word of this, however, he immediately sprung into action to convince the school board members that there was nothing pornographic about his work.

"I was outraged," Bissinger tells USA Today. "I raised a ruckus and they listened."

Bridgette Exman, the assistant superintendent of curriculum and instruction in the district, heard Bissinger's protests and subsequently reread "Friday Night Lights" to see that it cleared the state's standards. It very much did, and it was subsequently reinstated.

That said, Bissinger is also upset at some of the other books that remain pulled from the shelves at school libraries.

"I hate that some of these other books, like Alice Walker's, are still banned," he tells USA Today. "The idea overall that these kids need to be sheltered is a joke."
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Re: Florida: Slavery taught job skills!

Post by bird »

JoeMemphis wrote: Tue Sep 05, 2023 10:23 am You don’t get to decide what I get to decide. You don’t get to decide what is taught in Fl or Tn or anywhere else you don’t vote. Voters decide in this country who gets to make these decisions. Do you like in Fl? I don’t think so.

That being said. I stand by my previous statement whether you like it or agree with it or not.
Welp, voters are idiots. Look no further than the election of Trump or DeathSantis.

I prefer people who are trained in subjects to provide decisions about them.

You prefer people in FL to make decisions about other people in FL whether the topic impacts them or not because reasons or “God said” or whatever.
Last edited by bird on Wed Sep 06, 2023 12:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Florida: Slavery taught job skills!

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Glennfs wrote: Tue Sep 05, 2023 10:58 am You guys on the left can't stand it when parents get involved in what is being taught in school. Especially when it messes up your agenda of indoctrination.

Yes there are parents rights. In fact it is the parents who are supposed to be running the school. It is 100pct up to the parents to decide what is appropriate and at what age.

Because you see those people who are taught to educate children work for the parents.
No, there is no such thing as parents’ rights. It is a made up construct by supercilious conservative assholes designed to impose religious dogma.

It is not up to you as a parent to decide what my children should or should not be taught or exposed to.

Teachers do not work for parents. They work for the school district.

If parents want to run a school then go open a fucking charter school.
Last edited by bird on Wed Sep 06, 2023 12:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Florida: Slavery taught job skills!

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bird wrote: Wed Sep 06, 2023 12:17 pm No, there is no such thing as parents’ rights. It is a made up construct by supercilious conservative assholes designed to 8mpose religious dogma.

It is not up to you as a parent to decide what my children should or should not be taught or exposed to.

Teachers do not work for parents. They work for the school district.

If parents want to run a school then go open a fucking charter school.
Parents should have some input into what a child is learning but is definitely needs to be limited because whether we want to admit it or not, the fact remains that a certain percentage of parents are idiots. Some are probably even racist, sexist, xenophobic, and a few other things.
JoeMemphis

Re: Florida: Slavery taught job skills!

Post by JoeMemphis »

bird wrote: Wed Sep 06, 2023 12:14 pm Welp, voters are idiots. Look no further than the election of Trump or DeathSantis.

I prefer people who are trained in subjects to provide decisions about them.

You prefer people in FL to make decisions about other people in FL whether the topic impacts them or not because reasons or “God said” or whatever.
That’s democracy Bird. I kinda like it. But if you have an alternative, I’m open to suggestions. You seem to prefer a system where a different set of people makes decisions about other people whether it impacts them or not. Thankfully we have a constitution that puts limits on folks who think as you.
JoeMemphis

Re: Florida: Slavery taught job skills!

Post by JoeMemphis »

Toonces wrote: Wed Sep 06, 2023 12:26 pm Parents should have some input into what a child is learning but is definitely needs to be limited because whether we want to admit it or not, the fact remains that a certain percentage of parents are idiots. Some are probably even racist, sexist, xenophobic, and a few other things.
A certain number of teachers and politicians are also idiots Toonces. Parents are ultimately responsible for the education of their children. They in most cases are long term relationships and are there for the child long after teachers and politicians. So if I am to choose who I believe most often acts in the best interest of the child, I would defer to the parents over teachers or politicians. Any day.
JoeMemphis

Re: Florida: Slavery taught job skills!

Post by JoeMemphis »

bird wrote: Wed Sep 06, 2023 12:17 pm No, there is no such thing as parents’ rights. It is a made up construct by supercilious conservative assholes designed to impose religious dogma.

It is not up to you as a parent to decide what my children should or should not be taught or exposed to.

Teachers do not work for parents. They work for the school district.

If parents want to run a school then go open a fucking charter school.
Or run for the school board.
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Re: Florida: Slavery taught job skills!

Post by gounion »

JoeMemphis wrote: Wed Sep 06, 2023 3:59 pm Or run for the school board.
Should education be left to professionals, or should it be ran by uneducated-far-right ideology-based people running for school boards?

For instance, if the school board wants to teach Bible-based creationism or flat earth in classrooms, should they prevail?
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Re: Florida: Slavery taught job skills!

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Well, Joe, I think I'd prefer my child get an education that's driven by professionals with input from parents. Professionals should have a better idea of how to teach a classroom of children than parents, and just what material is relevant to prepare them for a life post-school. I believe a parent-driven curriculum would just be an absolute mess because it would involve too many differing viewpoints with very little experience in educating.

You obviously seem to believe that approach would be folly. So we're just going to have to disagree on this.

We can agree that politicians should stay out of it. However, we currently have politicians saying that they're letting the parents decide on education and it's resulted in curriculums from PragerU. It would very much be unlikely that PragerU would be the teaching material if left to the professionals. So, y'know, I'm fairly comfortable with believing in the people whose experience and training is educating children, rather than parents.
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Re: Florida: Slavery taught job skills!

Post by gounion »

This is Glenn’s world.

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