War and Peace

[ZoWie]

Dunno, the Teamsters certainly have the best job in the movie industry.

[gounion]

I believe that is the main reason unions until recently have had such problems.
Basically they have told 50pct of the population we have nothing for you.
In actuality it is probably higher than 50pct if you only count blue collar type people

Wrong. The reason they have had trouble is the laws are set up against them. They are allowed to harass and fire employees that want a union.

Unions have always lobbied for laws that affect ALL working people, not just union workers. Minimum wage laws and the Americans with Disabilities Act, for instance.

But the corporations have gotten so powerful and vicious that workers are overcoming the roadblocks into unionization. Hell, even doctors are unionizing because it’s the only way to fight the death grip of the corporations.

[ZoWie]

GoU is right, you know. We stopped one power grab in the 19th century with unions, but now it's time to stop another one. The working public has been kicked out of the game, while all the time being told it's the people on their side who did it to them.

This topic IS relevant to a war and peace thread, because inequality is one big cause of war. You can't keep people under your boot forever. It leads to harmful mutations such as the currently dominant terrorist wing of Hamas.

[bradman]

I believe that is the main reason unions until recently have had such problems.
Basically they have told 50pct of the population we have nothing for you.
In actuality it is probably higher than 50pct if you only count blue collar type people

What percentage of that 50% are the people who think unions suck. Ya know, the people that think unions are a commie plot.

[bold] Not sure what ya mean by that. Would you be willing to elaborate?

[gounion]

What percentage of that 50% are the people who think unions suck. Ya know, the people that think unions are a commie plot.

[bold] Not sure what ya mean by that. Would you be willing to elaborate?

It’s all a fantasy in his head. Trust me, I’ve listened to it for hours, and there’s nothing factual behind it.

[Glennfs]

What percentage of that 50% are the people who think unions suck. Ya know, the people that think unions are a commie plot.

[bold] Not sure what ya mean by that. Would you be willing to elaborate?

Look unions only support liberal democrats with very few exceptions.
Now look at Trump voters there were around 70 million of them. Most blue collar types. Which is why it's a safe bet that unions have nothing to offer those 70 million voters. Who I am sure do not care to support liberal candidates or causes.

What the unions should do is in the primary endorse a republican candidate and a democratic candidate.
Then in the general election endorse one or the other.
Whst would be wrong with unions doing that. As opposed to claiming all Republicans are fascist who want to destroy our nation.

[gounion]

Look unions only support liberal democrats with very few exceptions.
Now look at Trump voters there were around 70 million of them. Most blue collar types. Which is why it's a safe bet that unions have nothing to offer those 70 million voters. Who I am sure do not care to support liberal candidates or causes.

Sean Fain proved we do have a lot to offer. And while Joe Biden went and walked a picket line, Donald Trump didn't go near one, and instead went to a non-union plant. Trump would have been booed and ran off from a UAW picket line.

What the unions should do is in the primary endorse a republican candidate and a democratic candidate.
Then in the general election endorse one or the other.
Whst would be wrong with unions doing that. As opposed to claiming all Republicans are fascist who want to destroy our nation.

Some unions do, which you know.

[bradman]

Look unions only support liberal democrats with very few exceptions.
Now look at Trump voters there were around 70 million of them. Most blue collar types. Which is why it's a safe bet that unions have nothing to offer those 70 million voters. Who I am sure do not care to support liberal candidates or causes.

What the unions should do is in the primary endorse a republican candidate and a democratic candidate.
Then in the general election endorse one or the other.
Whst would be wrong with unions doing that. As opposed to claiming all Republicans are fascist who want to destroy our nation.

[bold] Well that's odd. Being a 49er and knowing my fellow 49er comrades i can attest to more than a few of them voting conservative. Sure they'd occasionally bitch about the commie plot but in the end they loved the wage and i've never heard a one of them complain about the retirement benefits.

[Motor City]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kQ1CA9-7gOU

Goodbye blue sky


Where is Mosab Abu Toha? A Poem from Gaza in 22 Languages

Palestinian poet Mosab Abu Toha was reportedly detained in a mass arrest by the Israeli Defence Forces on the morning of November 20, 2023. He was at a checkpoint in Gaza traveling south toward the Rafah border crossing with his wife and children. We join the chorus of organizations and independent voices demanding his freedom and safe return. UPDATE: Word from both David Remnick and Diana Buttu suggests that Abu Toha was beaten and interrogated, along with 200 others, and then released by the IDF. He is now receiving medical treatment and is with his family.

On October 29, 2023, Abu Toha posted an Instagram video of his family home, now flattened and reduced to rubble, in Beit Lahiya, North Gaza. “That used to be my house,” he says, looking over his shoulder. “There is nothing, there is nothing over there. Not my books. Not my heirlooms. Not the kitchen. Nothing.”

Later that day, Abu Toha posted a screenshot of the poem “What Is Home?” from his debut poetry collection Things You May Find Hidden In My Ear published last year by City Lights. In the caption to the poem, he asks:

“Please save this poem, recite to the people around you and tell them what happened to my home, and the homes of so many other people? Tell them some families were buried under the rubble?”

Writers from around the world have come together to translate “What Is Home?” to allow as many people as possible to save it and recite it.

We ask, what is home? And we demand to know, where is Mosab Abu Toha?

–The editors, O Bod Magazine and Lit Hub

What is home:

it is the shade of trees on my way to school before they were uprooted.

It is my grandparents’ black-and-white wedding photo before the walls
crumbled.

It is my uncle’s prayer rug, where dozens of ants slept on wintry nights, before it was looted and
put in a museum.

It is the oven my mother used to bake bread and roast chicken before a bomb reduced our
house to ashes.

It is the café where I watched football matches and played –

My child stops me: Can a four-letter word hold all of these?

[ZoWie]

Recent developments confirm that Netanyahu has finally gotten the message that he is in serious danger of losing the world's respect. At least this is true if you choose to believe CNN.

https://www.cnn.com/2023/12/15/politics ... index.html

“What we have consistently said is that Israel has the intent to make sure that it is drawing those distinctions clearly and in a sustainable way. And we want to see the results match up to that,” Sullivan added.

Sullivan was communicating a clear message to Israel’s government, days after a public rift opened between Biden and Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu over the mounting civilian casualties in Gaza.

Earlier this month, CNN reported that US officials expect the current phase of Israel’s ground operation to transition a lower-intensity, hyper-localized strategy that narrowly targets specific Hamas militants and leaders, possibly by January.

January is 2.5 weeks away. We will see. The world is watching.

[ZoWie]

Things are happening fast. IDF now admits that the Israeli military has killed three of the hostages they are ostensibly trying to rescue.

https://www.bbc.com/news/live/world-mid ... n=BBCS_BBC

The Israeli military has now released the name of the third and final hostage it's admitted to accidentally killing, after misidentifying them as a "threat".

The status quo cannot hold.

[Motor City]

Ukraine grenade incident: Councillor tosses explosives into meeting

A village councillor in western Ukraine has thrown grenades on to the floor of a council meeting, wounding 26 people, police say.

The attack took place on Friday morning at the village council headquarters in Keretsky in the western Transcarpathian region.
Police have not yet commented on a possible motive for the attack, which has left six seriously wounded.
The meeting was being livestreamed on Facebook when the incident took place.

Councillors had been holding a heated discussion about their budget for 2024 as well as this year's financial results and holding a vote on awarding the council chief a bonus.

Almost 90 minutes into the meeting, the footage shows one of the village councillors shouting, objecting to the budget. The man, wearing a dark jacket, then leaves the room, taking another man with him.
A few minutes later he returns and stands in front of the door. Shortly afterwards he takes several grenades out of his jacket pockets.

He briefly tries to attract people's attention, saying "May I, may I?", before tossing the grenades into the middle of the room. Moments later they explode.

"As a result, 26 people were wounded, six of whom are in a grave condition," the police statement said, adding that medics were trying to resuscitate the man who threw the grenades.

Police later said the attacker was taken to a hospital to an intensive care unit in a serious condition.
Many Ukrainians have access to weaponry due to the war with Russia, but there is no evidence yet that the attack was related to the conflict....

War has a corrupting effect on people both near and far to it.

Georgia middle school teacher accused of threatening to behead Muslim student

According to a sheriff's office arrest report, obtained by CNN, nearly two dozen people witnessed a portion of the Dec. 7 incident.

The report, written by a deputy at the school the outlet reported, said witnesses heard Reese "shouting profane threats" at a least one student in a hallway at the school, including threats to cut the student's head off.

Another teacher in a nearby classroom reported hearing Reese call someone "my antisemitic friend.” The teacher said Reese yelled someone "disrespected his flag," the outlet reported. "I will drag her by the back of my car and cut her (expletive) head off for disrespecting my Jewish flag."

[ZoWie]

IDF now admits that the three hostages were waving a white flag when they were killed by Israeli troops. Protests have begun in Israel against Netanyahu. They include relatives of the hostages.

Oops.

https://www.bbc.com/news/live/world-mid ... n=BBCS_BBC

[bradman]

And now the rumor that they are going to flood the tunnels. It's taken on a scorched earth policy.

[ZoWie]

That's not a rumor. Part of the tunnel system has had sea water pumped into it by Israeli forces for several days now. If any hostages were in that part, they are dead.

The tunnel system is on a scale with the New York subway, hundreds of miles of them, and I doubt that Israel has managed to flood the whole thing. It has blast doors, shielded rooms where ammo is stored, some very secure bomb shelters for personnel, and in general it is not your typical hand-dug improvisation. After Israel walled off Gaza and left it to fester, Hamas had plenty of time, money, and encouragement to build a real military asset.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/graphics ... 904366007/
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-67097124

[Motor City]

IDF now admits that the three hostages were waving a white flag when they were killed by Israeli troops. Protests have begun in Israel against Netanyahu. They include relatives of the hostages.

Oops.

https://www.bbc.com/news/live/world-mid ... n=BBCS_BBC

Do you think they may have not wanted the hostages to tell some things?


Israel Gaza: Hostages were carrying white cloth when shot, IDF says

....An Israeli military official, who spoke on condition of anonymity, said an initial investigation by the Israel Defense Forces (IDF) suggested the three hostages emerged shirtless from a building, with one carrying a stick with a white cloth.

One of the soldiers, the official added, felt threatened, as the men were at a distance of tens of metres, declared them "terrorists" and opened fire. Two were immediately killed while the third, wounded, returned to the building.

A cry for help was heard in Hebrew and the battalion commander ordered the troops to cease fire. The wounded hostage later re-emerged, and was shot and killed, the official said.

The hostages had either been abandoned by their captors or escaped, the official added.

A building with a message SOS was found in the area, and the authorities were investigating whether it was linked to the killed hostages.....

All are hostages to the war

Since the end of a temporary ceasefire between Israel and Hamas earlier this month, the families have urged the Israeli government to reach a new truce for at least some of the captives to be freed. The initial deal led to the release of more than 100 hostages, in exchange for Palestinians held in Israeli jails.

In Tel Aviv, thousands of people gathered outside the city's Museum of Art, in what is now known as Hostages Square, and called for a truce, chanting "Bring them home now".

"It's our biggest fear what happened - hostages who were alive are now dead," Naama Weinberg, whose cousin Itai Svirsky is a hostage, said at the vigil. "We don't need bodies, or bags. Make a ceasefire until all hostages are back, alive. Every day that passes by we're just discovering more and more names of hostages that were taken alive and are now coming back dead."....

[bradman]

The rumor is that they are going to flood the whole tunnel system. That could have massive repercussions compared to the minimal flooding so far. Right now, i wouldn't put it past Bibi. My guess, he'd have done it by now if it hadn't been for................

[JoeMemphis]

The rumor is that they are going to flood the whole tunnel system. That could have massive repercussions compared to the minimal flooding so far. Right now, i wouldn't put it past Bibi. My guess, he'd have done it by now if it hadn't been for................

Question: If it weren’t for the hostages, would you support flooding those tunnels by the IDF as good military strategy?

[bradman]

Question: If it weren’t for the hostages, would you support flooding those tunnels by the IDF as good military strategy?

It depends on a number of factors. One being the water table. People have to live there after this is over. (What Egypt did is no justification.)

Another being..........i dunno...... to get to the tunnels you have to go through the population. Flooding or not the collateral damage to the population is becoming unbearable. A scorched earth policy against combatants is one thing. When it involves civilians it's against the law. Well, if ya dig what the Geneva Convention has to say anyhoo. To wit: Bibi's never been hip to International Laws and that's one of the places the pressure for him to tone it down is coming from.

[JoeMemphis]

It depends on a number of factors. One being the water table. People have to live there after this is over. (What Egypt did is no justification.)

Another being..........i dunno...... to get to the tunnels you have to go through the population. Flooding or not the collateral damage to the population is becoming unbearable. A scorched earth policy against combatants is one thing. When it involves civilians it's against the law. Well, if ya dig what the Geneva Convention has to say anyhoo. To wit: Bibi's never been hip to International Laws and that's one of the places the pressure for him to tone it down is coming from.

Hamas has never been hip to international law either. The problem is the enemy’s strategy is to imbed itself in the population. So you have to other the population to get to the enemy. Sticky situation. I’m not an expert of war crimes but the Israelis have taken steps to warn civilian populations and to limit the collateral damage as far as civilian casualties IMV. That’s a hellava lot more than we can say for Hamas.

As for the tunnels. If I were the Israelis, I would destroy them all. Deny them to the enemy. Try to minimize the impact of civilians where possible but the mission is to destroy Hamas.

[gounion]

Hamas has never been hip to international law either. The problem is the enemy’s strategy is to imbed itself in the population. So you have to other the population to get to the enemy. Sticky situation. I’m not an expert of war crimes but the Israelis have taken steps to warn civilian populations and to limit the collateral damage as far as civilian casualties IMV. That’s a hellava lot more than we can say for Hamas.

As for the tunnels. If I were the Israelis, I would destroy them all. Deny them to the enemy. Try to minimize the impact of civilians where possible but the mission is to destroy Hamas.

So you'd be in favor of dropping a nuke on Gaza, correct?

[ZoWie]

1. The tunnels are of a scale that destroying them in the usual manner, by explosions causing cave-ins, would probably turn many if not most inhabited areas of Gaza into wastelands. Yes, they go under hospitals, etc.. They go under everything. You would essentially destroy much of the Gaza infrastructure were they all to be taken out. Of course, right now its infrastructure is toast anyway.

2. Sea water is being used to flood them. There isn't enough fresh water as it is, but the Mediterranean is right next door. The effect on the water table would indeed be catastrophic, and since borders don't keep water out as well as they do people, Israel would be a disaster area as well. The entire region we're talking about is not much bigger than New Jersey.

3. Troops in combat situations rarely have all the information necessary to carry out orders in a manner consistent with the Geneva Conventions. The Israeli troops who killed the hostages most likely had orders to disregard any surrenders in Hebrew, since spoofing these was a common Hamas tactic. The purpose of war is to kill, and the means by which they are fought do not incorporate completely fail-safe means of telling the good guys from the bad guys. Israel never made any pretense of using "smart" munitions, and even if they had, Gaza is so densely populated that the concussion from a large explosion in a military target is not going to conveniently stop propagating through the air before getting to a civilian one.

3a. While war crimes should be prosecuted like any other ones, the best way to reduce war crimes is to have fewer wars.

4. It's not especially relevant to the current situation, since hindsight is always 20/20, to note that the way to keep collateral damage down is not to have a war in the first place. It was important to the leadership of both sides that Gaza remain an overpopulated, underserved, open-air prison, making war the only way that things would ever change. Both sides got something out of that. Now we have another lesson to put down into the historical narrative on why maintaining an unsustainable status quo is the worst idea of all.

5. We have a whole public health system for bad diseases that spread across populations, killing many of those in them. We don't seem to take our own propensity to harm each other over abstract ideas or sublimated sexual urges as seriously. One can make a case that it is actually the #1 public health problem.

[JoeMemphis]

So you'd be in favor of dropping a nuke on Gaza, correct?

Seriously?

[ZoWie]

Gaza is so small that even a tactical nuke would be a problem for both sides. This region is the perfect test lab for the idea of mutually assured destruction. That's what you will get if the situation is allowed to continue as before.

[JoeMemphis]

Gaza is so small that even a tactical nuke would be a problem for both sides. This region is the perfect test lab for the idea of mutually assured destruction. That's what you will get if the situation is allowed to continue as before.

Who is gonna drop a nuke? Nobody. I question whether this will escalate but I certainly doubt it would escalate to that point. I don’t know how much longer it will go on. Seems to me that’s up to Hamas and the Israelis. Hamas started all this in the first place. I doubt the Israelis are going to throw in the towel until they have destroyed Hamas.

But that’s just opinion on my part. Who knows?