Corporations and bankruptcy

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Bludogdem
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Re: Corporations and bankruptcy

Post by Bludogdem »

gounion wrote: Tue Oct 26, 2021 6:43 pm Oh, yeah, and you can always believe what a corporation says, right?

It's all about the bankruptcy!
The Courts will decide. And they’ll pay the money the Courts decide.

LTL is subsidiary. Not an independent business.
gounion
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Re: Corporations and bankruptcy

Post by gounion »

Bludogdem wrote: Tue Oct 26, 2021 7:13 pm The Courts will decide. And they’ll pay the money the Courts decide.

LTL is subsidiary. Not an independent business.
Then why the bankruptcy?
Bludogdem
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Re: Corporations and bankruptcy

Post by Bludogdem »

gounion wrote: Tue Oct 26, 2021 7:16 pm Then why the bankruptcy?
To consolidate it into a court.

They’ve won five in a row. Not a good sign for the ambulance chasers.

This will offer an opportunity for reasonable settlements under court approval.

35,000 lawsuits could be a considerable expense.
JoeMemphis

Re: Corporations and bankruptcy

Post by JoeMemphis »

gounion wrote: Tue Oct 26, 2021 7:06 pm This is what’s know in the biz as “pissing backwards”. J&J was responsible for tens of thousands of deaths in their part of the opioid mess.

Is killing tens of thousands what you consider a “good corporate citizen”???
I don’t think you can judge a person or a business based solely on one act. You look at the totality. We do not judge government agencies like that, we don’t judge unions like that, we don’t judge school systems like that. Like every other human endeavor, people make mistakes, they make bad decisions. Occasionally there have bad actors in their mists. I’m not saying that there shouldn’t be consequences. I’m just not ready to give everyone or every business the death penalty.

So if we are to judge businesses like this, then we should judge every human endeavor by the same standard. Think of all the things we could shut down. Schools, hospitals, governments, unions. I’m not sure that’s a fair or reasonable way to view things.

If you want big pharma to go away. That’s up to you. But right now those medicines keep me and others alive. I’m a bit partial to that.
gounion
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Re: Corporations and bankruptcy

Post by gounion »

JoeMemphis wrote: Tue Oct 26, 2021 7:25 pm I don’t think you can judge a person or a business based solely on one act. You look at the totality. We do not judge government agencies like that, we don’t judge unions like that, we don’t judge school systems like that. Like every other human endeavor, people make mistakes, they make bad decisions. Occasionally there have bad actors in their mists. I’m not saying that there shouldn’t be consequences. I’m just not ready to give everyone or every business the death penalty.

So if we are to judge businesses like this, then we should judge every human endeavor by the same standard. Think of all the things we could shut down. Schools, hospitals, governments, unions. I’m not sure that’s a fair or reasonable way to view things.

If you want big pharma to go away. That’s up to you. But right now those medicines keep me and others alive. I’m a bit partial to that.
One act? Are you kidding? They KNEW these drugs were killers, they continued to push them for many years.

Also, look it the OP of THIS thread, J&J knew there was asbestos in their products, yet the covered it up and continued making it for years.

And I knew you’d bring up unions, you always do. The Teamsters has a bad rep, and it’s deserved. Hell, the President of the UAW is headed to prison, if he’s not there already, and many other leaders were caught up in the illegality. I can’t defend that, and I won’t defend that.

I guess there’s a lot of differences between us. But if a company spent decades killing it’s customers, I wouldn’t defend them and say it’s no big deal, like you do. I understand that you conservatives thinks money is far more important than people.

Johnson and Johnson is one of the worst actors in Big Pharma. I asked for an example of ONE that is a good actor, that’s not awash in lawsuits over their rank criminality.

It seems you can’t find any. You make my point.
JoeMemphis

Re: Corporations and bankruptcy

Post by JoeMemphis »

gounion wrote: Tue Oct 26, 2021 7:48 pm One act? Are you kidding? They KNEW these drugs were killers, they continued to push them for many years.

Also, look it the OP of THIS thread, J&J knew there was asbestos in their products, yet the covered it up and continued making it for years.

And I knew you’d bring up unions, you always do. The Teamsters has a bad rep, and it’s deserved. Hell, the President of the UAW is headed to prison, if he’s not there already, and many other leaders were caught up in the illegality. I can’t defend that, and I won’t defend that.

I guess there’s a lot of differences between us. But if a company spent decades killing it’s customers, I wouldn’t defend them and say it’s no big deal, like you do. I understand that you conservatives thinks money is far more important than people.

Johnson and Johnson is one of the worst actors in Big Pharma. I asked for an example of ONE that is a good actor, that’s not awash in lawsuits over their rank criminality.

It seems you can’t find any. You make my point.
I’m not defending bad behavior. There should be consequences. We have laws and courts for that.

You are not willing to condemn an entire union or unions in general. Im not about to automatically condemn an entire organization or industry. As I said, if you want to judge schools, governments, unions, political organizations, etc by that standard, then you are consistent. But I don’t see that happening.

Everything human will disappoint you at some point in time. Pharma serves a purpose and deliverers products we need. They need to be regulated for sure. I personally I am not a fan of doing away with them.
Tao Jones Sr.
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Re: Corporations and bankruptcy

Post by Tao Jones Sr. »

I don’t think you can judge a person or a business based solely on one act.
“It’s so sad O.J.’s accused of murder. He had such a great football and movie career.”
”Loons Need Not Apply.” -Bushwa
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Libertas
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Re: Corporations and bankruptcy

Post by Libertas »

Tao Jones Sr. wrote: Tue Oct 26, 2021 8:48 pm “It’s so sad O.J.’s accused of murder. He had such a great football and movie career.”
That's it, you win, this day is OVER :lol:
I sigh in your general direction.
Tao Jones Sr.
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Re: Corporations and bankruptcy

Post by Tao Jones Sr. »

…..it is a Sophie's choice …
Fuck you for using that.
”Loons Need Not Apply.” -Bushwa
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Number6
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Re: Corporations and bankruptcy

Post by Number6 »

JoeMemphis wrote: Tue Oct 26, 2021 7:25 pm I don’t think you can judge a person or a business based solely on one act. You look at the totality. We do not judge government agencies like that, we don’t judge unions like that, we don’t judge school systems like that. Like every other human endeavor, people make mistakes, they make bad decisions. Occasionally there have bad actors in their mists. I’m not saying that there shouldn’t be consequences. I’m just not ready to give everyone or every business the death penalty.

So if we are to judge businesses like this, then we should judge every human endeavor by the same standard. Think of all the things we could shut down. Schools, hospitals, governments, unions. I’m not sure that’s a fair or reasonable way to view things.

If you want big pharma to go away. That’s up to you. But right now those medicines keep me and others alive. I’m a bit partial to that.
You can judge a person or business based solely on one act. Juries do it every day.
When you vote left, you vote right.
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Libertas
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Re: Corporations and bankruptcy

Post by Libertas »

Number6 wrote: Tue Oct 26, 2021 9:11 pm You can judge a person or business based solely on one act. Juries do it every day.
I havent read all this, please tell me the "one act" he keeps referring to isnt oxycontin i.e. Sackler?
I sigh in your general direction.
JoeMemphis

Re: Corporations and bankruptcy

Post by JoeMemphis »

Number6 wrote: Tue Oct 26, 2021 9:11 pm You can judge a person or business based solely on one act. Juries do it every day.
Those are consequences. I never said there shouldn’t be consequences for bad behavior. That’s different from condemning an entire industry or an entire corporation. Its not quite that simple.

I’m not saying there are not evil people or evil organizations, but generally we judge people and organizations somewhat more broadly.

But hey, if you guys want to tank an entire industry, that’s up to you. I’m not there yet. I enjoy better living thru chemistry. It’s kept me alive and in one piece for 20 years. So I figure they have been doing some things right.
Tao Jones Sr.
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Re: Corporations and bankruptcy

Post by Tao Jones Sr. »

“Preservatives might be preserving you. I think that’s something you might have missed…”

-Grace Slick. (Ironically)
”Loons Need Not Apply.” -Bushwa
gounion
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Re: Corporations and bankruptcy

Post by gounion »

JoeMemphis wrote: Tue Oct 26, 2021 8:08 pm I’m not defending bad behavior. There should be consequences. We have laws and courts for that.

You are not willing to condemn an entire union or unions in general. Im not about to automatically condemn an entire organization or industry. As I said, if you want to judge schools, governments, unions, political organizations, etc by that standard, then you are consistent. But I don’t see that happening.

Everything human will disappoint you at some point in time. Pharma serves a purpose and deliverers products we need. They need to be regulated for sure. I personally I am not a fan of doing away with them.
Again, show me some GOOD actors in pharma. You can't! I point out there are unions with corruption problems - but i can point you to many GREAT unions that are doing great things for our country. So your attempted attack upon them failed, and my points on Pharma stand. I don't know any Pharma companies that are providing their products at a reasonable price and aren't guilty of gouging, false marketing and covering up deaths caused by their products.

Look, I agree that many of the drugs they make are beneficial. I'm just asking that they be priced reasonably so that people can afford them. The research that these drugs are based upon are funded by the American taxpayer. When unions go wrong, they are clamped down on by the Justice Department. The same needs to happen to Big Pharma. If some CEOs went to prison for their actions, they might think twice. And don't try to say that's what happened to Pharma Bro - he went to prison for securities violations, not for gouging.
JoeMemphis

Re: Corporations and bankruptcy

Post by JoeMemphis »

gounion wrote: Wed Oct 27, 2021 5:50 am Again, show me some GOOD actors in pharma. You can't! I point out there are unions with corruption problems - but i can point you to many GREAT unions that are doing great things for our country. So your attempted attack upon them failed, and my points on Pharma stand. I don't know any Pharma companies that are providing their products at a reasonable price and aren't guilty of gouging, false marketing and covering up deaths caused by their products.

Look, I agree that many of the drugs they make are beneficial. I'm just asking that they be priced reasonably so that people can afford them. The research that these drugs are based upon are funded by the American taxpayer. When unions go wrong, they are clamped down on by the Justice Department. The same needs to happen to Big Pharma. If some CEOs went to prison for their actions, they might think twice. And don't try to say that's what happened to Pharma Bro - he went to prison for securities violations, not for gouging.
I do contracting work in the Pharma industry. I am not going to name specific companies. As I recall, when you worked for unions you held a similar position. I will point out that the law does not protect corporate officers from responsibility for criminal acts. There are CEO’s in prison. Further, many officers can be held personally liable for gross negligence. For simple negligence, there are civil courts. So there is a great deal of legal consequences for companies that get outside the lines as far as conduct.
gounion
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Re: Corporations and bankruptcy

Post by gounion »

JoeMemphis wrote: Wed Oct 27, 2021 8:16 am I do contracting work in the Pharma industry. I am not going to name specific companies. As I recall, when you worked for unions you held a similar position. I will point out that the law does not protect corporate officers from responsibility for criminal acts. There are CEO’s in prison. Further, many officers can be held personally liable for gross negligence. For simple negligence, there are civil courts. So there is a great deal of legal consequences for companies that get outside the lines as far as conduct.
Wrong. I talked about unions a LOT during my time before I retired. I certainly stayed away from anything MY union was involved in. But I was happy to speak on the UAW and Teamsters and other unions.

NO ONE knows who you are on this board. You certainly shouldn't name the company you deal with. But there's no reason you can't name ones you don't.

You won't ever get put in prison for your corporation's actions, no matter how heinous. That's a fact. I mean, your corporation can commit mass murder, and no one will be held accountable in the corporate world. So, in the real world they aren't held accountable. They just get fined, which, when the fines are far less than the profits made, just become part of the cost of doing business. Hell, the fines are even tax deductible, right?

That's why the corporations act like the law doesn't apply to them - because it DOESN'T. There are NO legal consequences.

Again - something both you and Glenn ignore - if you could rob a bank, and you couldn't get arrested or jailed for doing so, and the ONLY POSSIBLE consequence is that you have to pay a tiny fine, AND you got to keep all the money you stole, why WOULDN'T you rob banks?

That's basically where we are with corporations today. Hell, look at the worst of Pharma - Purdue Pharmacy. They were the worst of the worst in the opioid horrors - although Johnson and Johnson certainly did THEIR part in the murders of a half a million people. The cost of Purdue's and Johnson and Johnson's crimes against humanity that killed A HALF A MILLION PEOPLE goes into the trillions. The pain, suffering and death should break the heart of ANYONE with a heart - but then, you've had to get rid of that years ago to be a corporate toady, right?

They got fined. Of course, the Sacklers have made sure to get billions out of the company and put it overseas where the American courts can't get to it, so they are given immunity from prosecution. Yeah, the company is going bankrupt, but it's now a dead husk, everyone having gotten their money out. But get this - the bankruptcy judge okayed seven million in bonuses for Purdue executives.

So tell me again how this is punishment? They made billions off of the opioid epidemic, and are fined far less than they made, money they may never pay.
gounion
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Re: Corporations and bankruptcy

Post by gounion »

Bludogdem wrote: Tue Oct 26, 2021 7:20 pm To consolidate it into a court.

They’ve won five in a row. Not a good sign for the ambulance chasers.

This will offer an opportunity for reasonable settlements under court approval.

35,000 lawsuits could be a considerable expense.
No, it's to limit what people can get. The fix is in.

It's about the "rights" of the corporation, not the rights of the people.

They don't have to litigate. They could settle. But they won't. Because they make so damned much profit that it's just a cost of doing business. Why not rob banks when the worst that can happen to you is that you can keep the money but pay a $25 fine?
JoeMemphis

Re: Corporations and bankruptcy

Post by JoeMemphis »

gounion wrote: Wed Oct 27, 2021 9:31 am Wrong. I talked about unions a LOT during my time before I retired. I certainly stayed away from anything MY union was involved in. But I was happy to speak on the UAW and Teamsters and other unions.

NO ONE knows who you are on this board. You certainly shouldn't name the company you deal with. But there's no reason you can't name ones you don't.

You won't ever get put in prison for your corporation's actions, no matter how heinous. That's a fact. I mean, your corporation can commit mass murder, and no one will be held accountable in the corporate world. So, in the real world they aren't held accountable. They just get fined, which, when the fines are far less than the profits made, just become part of the cost of doing business. Hell, the fines are even tax deductible, right?

That's why the corporations act like the law doesn't apply to them - because it DOESN'T. There are NO legal consequences.

Again - something both you and Glenn ignore - if you could rob a bank, and you couldn't get arrested or jailed for doing so, and the ONLY POSSIBLE consequence is that you have to pay a tiny fine, AND you got to keep all the money you stole, why WOULDN'T you rob banks?

That's basically where we are with corporations today. Hell, look at the worst of Pharma - Purdue Pharmacy. They were the worst of the worst in the opioid horrors - although Johnson and Johnson certainly did THEIR part in the murders of a half a million people. The cost of Purdue's and Johnson and Johnson's crimes against humanity that killed A HALF A MILLION PEOPLE goes into the trillions. The pain, suffering and death should break the heart of ANYONE with a heart - but then, you've had to get rid of that years ago to be a corporate toady, right?

They got fined. Of course, the Sacklers have made sure to get billions out of the company and put it overseas where the American courts can't get to it, so they are given immunity from prosecution. Yeah, the company is going bankrupt, but it's now a dead husk, everyone having gotten their money out. But get this - the bankruptcy judge okayed seven million in bonuses for Purdue executives.

So tell me again how this is punishment? They made billions off of the opioid epidemic, and are fined far less than they made, money they may never pay.
I don’t think anyone should be imprisoned for the criminal actions of others. Do you?

The fact is that there is no protection in corporate law that would shield an executive or any other employee from his/her own criminal conduct. Ask Bernie Evers of Worldcom. Ask the folks who went to jail in the Enron case. You can hold individuals responsible for their criminal conduct. There is no corporate shield protecting them from that responsibility. If there is then you should be able to cite a provision in the law providing for that exclusion.

Prosecutors have to bring a case and take it to trial. Just like they did in. Worldcom and Enron.
gounion
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Re: Corporations and bankruptcy

Post by gounion »

JoeMemphis wrote: Wed Oct 27, 2021 10:06 am I don’t think anyone should be imprisoned for the criminal actions of others. Do you?
Yes, if you're responsible for that conduct.

Or do you think the Mafia Don that orders a murder shouldn't bear any responsibility for it?

That's what corporations are all about - not taking responsibility. Like the guy I talked about earlier who took my brother-in-law's money and left him holding the empty bag. It's a corporation, nothing can be done.

This is the world you champion.
The fact is that there is no protection in corporate law that would shield an executive or any other employee from his/her own criminal conduct. Ask Bernie Evers of Worldcom. Ask the folks who went to jail in the Enron case. You can hold individuals responsible for their criminal conduct. There is no corporate shield protecting them from that responsibility. If there is then you should be able to cite a provision in the law providing for that exclusion.

Prosecutors have to bring a case and take it to trial. Just like they did in. Worldcom and Enron.
The only reason any CEOs or leaders go to prison is for securities fraud. That's all Worldcom or Enron folks went to prison for.

Like you corporate types, the only sin is not keeping the investors happy.

But kill a half a million people? No big.
JoeMemphis

Re: Corporations and bankruptcy

Post by JoeMemphis »

gounion wrote: Wed Oct 27, 2021 11:05 am Yes, if you're responsible for that conduct.

Or do you think the Mafia Don that orders a murder shouldn't bear any responsibility for it?

That's what corporations are all about - not taking responsibility. Like the guy I talked about earlier who took my brother-in-law's money and left him holding the empty bag. It's a corporation, nothing can be done.

This is the world you champion.

The only reason any CEOs or leaders go to prison is for securities fraud. That's all Worldcom or Enron folks went to prison for.

Like you corporate types, the only sin is not keeping the investors happy.

But kill a half a million people? No big.
Ordering a murder is a felony last time I checked. Reread what I posted. In this country, you shouldn’t go to jail for crimes committed by others. Conspiracy is a crime.

The folks who went to jail with Worldcom and Enron went to jail for fraud. Not securities fraud. Fraud. But bottomline, it was criminal conduct and they were held responsible. So your allegation that nobody goes to jail for criminal conduct in the corporate world is demonstrably false. As I said, cite a law that gives corporate officers/employees immunity for criminal conduct.

I get you dont line corporations for whatever reason. But they are legal. They are constitutional. They play a vital role in our economy and in the global economy. That isn’t going to change. They are regulated by the government. They aren’t going away.
gounion
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Re: Corporations and bankruptcy

Post by gounion »

JoeMemphis wrote: Wed Oct 27, 2021 11:32 am Ordering a murder is a felony last time I checked. Reread what I posted. In this country, you shouldn’t go to jail for crimes committed by others. Conspiracy is a crime.

The folks who went to jail with Worldcom and Enron went to jail for fraud. Not securities fraud. Fraud. But bottomline, it was criminal conduct and they were held responsible. So your allegation that nobody goes to jail for criminal conduct in the corporate world is demonstrably false. As I said, cite a law that gives corporate officers/employees immunity for criminal conduct.

I get you dont line corporations for whatever reason. But they are legal. They are constitutional. They play a vital role in our economy and in the global economy. That isn’t going to change. They are regulated by the government. They aren’t going away.
Then why aren’t the Sacklers in prison? Read up on them - they KNEW their drugs were deadly, they KNEW the were killing people, yet they ORDERED people to continue marketing them. They KNEW that some pharmacies were putting out hundreds of pills for every man, woman and child every month in those counties - yet they continued.

I’d say that’s the same thing as ordering a murder. Yet they go free with their blood-soaked gains.

Yet you defend these actions.
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Libertas
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Re: Corporations and bankruptcy

Post by Libertas »

gounion wrote: Wed Oct 27, 2021 11:41 am Then why aren’t the Sacklers in prison? Read up on them - they KNEW their drugs were deadly, they KNEW the were killing people, yet they ORDERED people to continue marketing them. They KNEW that some pharmacies were putting out hundreds of pills for every man, woman and child every month in those counties - yet they continued.

I’d say that’s the same thing as ordering a murder. Yet they go free with their blood-soaked gains.

Yet you defend these actions.
Did someone describe the oxycontin mass murder as "one act?" If you havent, watch "Dope Sick" on HULU...Michael Keaton stars, it is OUTSTANDING and if anything it TRIES to give Richard Sackler some benefit of the doubt as if he really was trying to cure pain. But they also make it clear his desire to be rich beyond reason was the primary factor.

This guy plays him

https://www.esquire.com/entertainment/t ... interview/

and I think I recognize him from Fargo TV show. And oh my god, what a creepy performance, AMAZING!
I sigh in your general direction.
gounion
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Re: Corporations and bankruptcy

Post by gounion »

Libertas wrote: Wed Oct 27, 2021 11:54 am Did someone describe the oxycontin mass murder as "one act?" If you havent, watch "Dope Sick" on HULU...Michael Keaton stars, it is OUTSTANDING and if anything it TRIES to give Richard Sackler some benefit of the doubt as if he really was trying to cure pain. But they also make it clear his desire to be rich beyond reason was the primary factor.

This guy plays him

https://www.esquire.com/entertainment/t ... interview/

and I think I recognize him from Fargo TV show. And oh my god, what a creepy performance, AMAZING!
Here’s the thing: Opioids like Oxycotin have their place. For terminal cancer patients, they are a godsend. If you’re going to die anyway, keeping those final days in relative comfort are great.

But you can’t make much money that way. And for corporations, the ONLY thing that REALLY matters is making as much profit as possible. That’s the reality. So it was about lying about the addictive nature of the drugs, and getting doctors to prescribe them like so much candy.

So Joe really doesn’t care that a half a million people died, and millions more addicted. It’s all about the profit.
JoeMemphis

Re: Corporations and bankruptcy

Post by JoeMemphis »

gounion wrote: Wed Oct 27, 2021 11:41 am Then why aren’t the Sacklers in prison? Read up on them - they KNEW their drugs were deadly, they KNEW the were killing people, yet they ORDERED people to continue marketing them. They KNEW that some pharmacies were putting out hundreds of pills for every man, woman and child every month in those counties - yet they continued.

I’d say that’s the same thing as ordering a murder. Yet they go free with their blood-soaked gains.

Yet you defend these actions.
The question is why, if they have committed crimes, have they not been charged? There is no statute of limitations on murder. Why have they not been charged? There is no protection from criminal prosecution in the law.

This is the Biden administration. AG Garland is someone you support. Direct your questions to the people who are actually in charge of prosecuting crimes.

Get back to us when and if they answer. I’m certainly not blocking them from filing charges or for investigating criminal conduct.

Finally, you claim I defend these actions. I have not. You claim I am okay or condone deaths due to drug abuse. I have not and do not. That’s just dishonesty on your part. So either back that up with actual posts or retract it. That is if you are the honest poster you claim to be.
gounion
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Re: Corporations and bankruptcy

Post by gounion »

JoeMemphis wrote: Wed Oct 27, 2021 12:15 pm The question is why, if they have committed crimes, have they not been charged? There is no statute of limitations on murder. Why have they not been charged? There is no protection from criminal prosecution in the law.

This is the Biden administration. AG Garland is someone you support. Direct your questions to the people who are actually in charge of prosecuting crimes.

Get back to us when and if they answer. I’m certainly not blocking them from filing charges or for investigating criminal conduct.
It’ s simple. Corporations are set up to relieve the leadership of their actions. Period.
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