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Yeah, I heard talk on the fan about jones and how he was a hue guy. Seems that organization and pieces in place matters more. I also won't argue about drafting and developing. That will take time and can be done but if they can't draft and/or develop then things will remain as they are. Of course since we are in the age of "squirrel!" I don't disagree with your doubt about the fans waiting. Unfortunately wait they must because this thing needs to be rebuilt from the ground up.

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bird's theorem-"we the people" are stupid.

"No one is so foolish as to choose war over peace. In peace sons bury their fathers, in war fathers bury their sons." - Herodotus

Sorry, but we hit on way better than 1:5. Way better. We have to. We only have 3 players on the entire team that have ever played elsewhere. We would need 22 rounds to keep that up if only 1:5 were players.

You said "blue chip" as a qualifier, and it depends what that means. But we drafted corners who had never played corner in the first and third rounds last year. As rookies they were near-elite at a premium position neither had played before. One of the two had only played 1 year of college football at all. Identifying talent nobody else sees and developing it is a franchise-wide art. The Packers' corner picks last year were brilliant and they do that all the time.

The real problem you have is the same one that the brewers realized they had, too late; that nobody chooses to play for you. They will play for the money, for you. If you can't buy your way to a championship (impossible in a league with a hard cap if you don't want to risk a gut and cut after), you have to be able to re-sign your own guys. You need to be able to re-sign them for LESS than market value because they buy-in and want to play there. The Browns can't keep their best players above market value.

The Brewers tendered record-setting offers to four players in a row and lost them anyway. Nobody wants to play for the Brewers or Browns. That seems very difficult to change. At least in baseball, you can build through the minor leagues.

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We must develop and maintain the capacity to forgive. He who is devoid of the power to forgive is devoid of the power to love.-MLK.

So are Manzil's chances of success better or worse now that he's been cut by the Browns?

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We must develop and maintain the capacity to forgive. He who is devoid of the power to forgive is devoid of the power to love.-MLK.

from what i have heard no one is interested. the whole grand jury thing is hanging over his head as are the cumulative effect of his actions. imo he simply was either unwilling or unable to work at his craft. he believed his talent would make him successful. unfortunately the nfl isn't college. and throwing in his addiction problems and this is where he ended up. i have wondered if his leaving a&m was actually a&m having enough of his act and telling him to go. that is speculation completely on my part but i wouldn't be surprised if it was the case.

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bird's theorem-"we the people" are stupid.

"No one is so foolish as to choose war over peace. In peace sons bury their fathers, in war fathers bury their sons." - Herodotus

So worse. Generally, when you get cut by the Browns, you have reached rock bottom.

But maybe there is a team out there that would take him at a minimum to sell some tickets? Maybe.

At the same time, if that happens, is he capable of a rebirth somewhere else? I never thought he had NFL talent anyway, but he could be a backup? Would he lower himself to that? Probably not.

He's probably just screwed.

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We must develop and maintain the capacity to forgive. He who is devoid of the power to forgive is devoid of the power to love.-MLK.

CFL maybe? I wouldn't be surprised if some NFL team picks him off the scrap heap near training camp. Every team is always looking at qb's, some more seriously than others of course. I think back-up is likely the best he can hope for and likely his talent level.

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bird's theorem-"we the people" are stupid.

"No one is so foolish as to choose war over peace. In peace sons bury their fathers, in war fathers bury their sons." - Herodotus

The thing is, the Packers could use one more QB after losing Tolzein last week (I was surprised by that). Green Bay would be a nice low-key place for him to get clean and focus on football. He'd have great coaches. The money is right. But there is no way in God's green Earth that the Packers would ever let that influence into the locker room. They brought back Johnny Jolly, even though he was addicted to purple drink (codeine, I guess), and they were excoriated in the local press for it. For the money and the up-side, he's a good street free agent. But he's not for us.

BTW: The Packers invited the first major free agent I can think of besides Julius Peppers in the last 5 years, and they signed Peppers. This from the only team that has earned an "incomplete," rather than a grade, from ESPN's free agent grading 5 of the 6 last years (You can't grade a team for not doing what the team doesn't try to do, right?).

If the Packers are attempting to sing Jared Cook. We apparently attempted to trade for him last year at the trade deadline (no news of that ever reached my ears), so we have sustained interest.

We have three major needs: An ILB so we can move Matthews back outside and build a pass rush. A DL to replace the now retiring B.J. Raji (This game huh? Surprise! Overnight your DL is a position of need, and it's March). And a TE.

Cook fills one of those. The draft is stacked with linebackers and big guys. So it makes sense to think the Packers could fill all three holes just by drafting BAP and making this signing.

Of course, the Packers don't generally pay anyone but Aaron Rodgers 8 million per year. They don't sign free agents. If it weren't for their apparent interest at the trade deadline last year (which would have included a consideration of his current contract hit), I would be calling this whole story rubbish.

As is, the Packers might make a splash this year...for good reason.

http://www.circasports.com/posts/303795 ... _aid=36676

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We must develop and maintain the capacity to forgive. He who is devoid of the power to forgive is devoid of the power to love.-MLK.

A psychiatrist friend has had a number of high profile Chicago sports figures as patients over the last 30 years or so. Professional football players, baseball, basketball, even a former heavyweight champion of the world.

His impressions are as follows:
From the time their skills are identified in their teen years to the point where the best of them develop into professionals making mega bucks...a statistically significant number of them are molded by their experience into self-absorbed, pampered thugs.

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also by their experience including likely parents (most likely dad) living vicariously through them as well as peer groups being hangers-on. everyone tells them how wonderful they are. i have friend who pitched in high school, college and semi-pro. he was drafted but decided not to go into the pros. he commented that in order to play on the major level you had to have a giant ego.

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bird's theorem-"we the people" are stupid.

"No one is so foolish as to choose war over peace. In peace sons bury their fathers, in war fathers bury their sons." - Herodotus

Oh of course there are rumors that the Browns are interested in RGIII.

Of course. Because they needed another troubled, high-profile failure after cutting Manziel

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We must develop and maintain the capacity to forgive. He who is devoid of the power to forgive is devoid of the power to love.-MLK.

yeah, i saw that as well. i hope it is only a matter of "kicking the tires."

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bird's theorem-"we the people" are stupid.

"No one is so foolish as to choose war over peace. In peace sons bury their fathers, in war fathers bury their sons." - Herodotus

now we get reports that josh gordon (hope springs eternal in browns' fans hearts) is not just hanging out with manziel but living at his house.

there's a great influence for a guy trying to get reinstated by the nfl.

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bird's theorem-"we the people" are stupid.

"No one is so foolish as to choose war over peace. In peace sons bury their fathers, in war fathers bury their sons." - Herodotus

Cleveland.com reports Josh Gordon failed another drug test.

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bird's theorem-"we the people" are stupid.

"No one is so foolish as to choose war over peace. In peace sons bury their fathers, in war fathers bury their sons." - Herodotus

don't know about this draft. coleman is a fast wideout with physical strength. he is also short. the qb they drafted is highly accurate but does not have good arm strength.

we won't know until this year plays out but i just have a bad feeling about the draft. perhaps it is just paranoia that the same old browns will appear. i am not counting on them winning more than two games but if they develop their talent (assuming it is developable) then the year after should be better.

we all know that the so-called draft gurus are in many instances flat-out wrong. yet i cannot help but think that having some guys capable of looking at players and making sound judgements about them would be helpful.

i just don't know.

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bird's theorem-"we the people" are stupid.

"No one is so foolish as to choose war over peace. In peace sons bury their fathers, in war fathers bury their sons." - Herodotus

time to crank up this thread again.

so the isotopes are 0-3 in pre-season. of course the record means nothing but a few things have been exposed.

crowell rushed for 39 yes on 8 carries iirc in the third, so-called dress rehearsal, pre-season game. of course he had one run of 13 yards which means he rushed for 26 yards on 7 carries which is not horrible but not really good either. it seems they will be lacking a running game again. duke johnson can catch passes out of the backfield but ain't much of a running back.

the defense flat out sucks. no further comment necessary.

today they cut kruger and some other guys. youth movement underway full bore. unfortunately you better be able to develop young talent or you will look like an ass. and they have much experience looking like an ass.

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bird's theorem-"we the people" are stupid.

"No one is so foolish as to choose war over peace. In peace sons bury their fathers, in war fathers bury their sons." - Herodotus

It's funny because a lot of the Packers fans now want us to cut youth and pick up Kruger. The statistical chance of the Packers, of all teams doing that, is still zero. Last year the number of players we had who were ever on another team was 3. We signed a free agent TE, but did not resign Kuhn, so we might be at 3 again by the time the 53 man roster is made (or lower).

Ted Thompson and Mike McCarthy would agree with taking the young guys, for whatever that's worth. The devotees to the Green Bay system would tell you that football is a game of replacement while baseball is (decreasingly) a game of retention.

The Packers, thanks in part to the Browns, are 3-0. We also just got an early Christmas and Hanukah gift, as Bridgewater collapsed with what appears to be a season ending knee injury. I've said before that I actually like Bridgewater. I liked him before he went to MN, and didn't want him to end up there. So this sucks for him, in the year everyone was expecting him to take a major step forward.

It's fantastic for the Packers. I thought that the Vikings would be inferior to us, but much improved behind what had been one of the worst O-Lines in the country, but which had gotten much better in the off season. With a real OL, an improved QB behind it, and Adrian Peterson, they were going to be a handful...with a brand new stadium to energize the base to boot.

Now they will be manageable for us again, one expects. With the Bears and Lions both seemingly conceding the division through a weak-as-a-sieve secondaries, the Packers took a giant step towards the post-season before we played our first game.

Combine that with no major injuries in the preseason, and the starters out until the regular season, one can call the preseason a success.

The big question is whether the center defense will hold with a rookie ILB and a rookie Nose Tackle. With Matthews returning to the outside, a couple of all-pro corners, and Ha-Ha ready to become, potentially, the best safety in the league, the Packers defense could be the most dominant in a decade. That is, if the center holds.

And injuries. Geesh. They sure can screw up a season. Just ask the Vikings and their fans.
http://deadspin.com/it-looks-like-somet ... socialflow

Here was the division primer, BEFORE the injury to Bridgewater.

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap300000 ... n-the-rise

Under the caption, "What we'll be talking about at the end of the season"

Minnesota Vikings: Mike Zimmer continues to build a team that will be a handful for years to come. The deep Vikes' defense comes in waves, never relenting -- even after injuries mount. Teddy Bridgewater proves he's more than just Adrian Peterson's caddy. This isn't a one-hit roster, but rather one ready to take on Seattle and Green Bay as a perennial NFC contender.

Best to just stay out of the predictions business.

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We must develop and maintain the capacity to forgive. He who is devoid of the power to forgive is devoid of the power to love.-MLK.

Props to Mike McCarthy for not throwing Collin Kaepernick under the bus, like almost every coach in the league. Read their various remarks with the link below.

“We talk about the national anthem each and every year prior to our first preseason game and how we conduct ourselves during the national anthem. But I think when you do get to a situation where there are social issues, I think everybody — players and coaches alike — feel there is a responsibility to stand up for that. With that, that’s where the communication between you and your football team takes place, and you respect each and every man for where they came from and who they are. With that, it’s more about not what they stand up for but really when. And I think those are the types of things that you work through.” - Mike McCarthy
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/ear ... ntroversy/

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We must develop and maintain the capacity to forgive. He who is devoid of the power to forgive is devoid of the power to love.-MLK.

Report on Bridgewater is worse than expected. I really wanted him to be successful, but I don't think he comes back from this to be a top shelf QB.

Statement from the Vikings:

"Teddy Bridgewater suffered a non-contact injury today at practice. The injury was quickly identified as a dislocated knee. The injury was stabilized, and he was transported to a nearby hospital for treatment and evaluation. After undergoing an MRI, it was determined that Teddy suffered a complete tear to his ACL and other structural damage. Fortunately, there appears to be no nerve or arterial damage. Surgical repair will be scheduled within the next few days. Although the recovery time will be significant, we expect Teddy to make a full recovery. I would like to thank all of the medical professionals and our athletic training staff for all of their help today. Teddy has already displayed the attitude needed to overcome this injury and attack his rehab."

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We must develop and maintain the capacity to forgive. He who is devoid of the power to forgive is devoid of the power to love.-MLK.

Invading this thread with a bit more baseball (apologies), but the Cubs are LEGIT.

They seem to do everything well. They are so young, but they are talented. I really don't think that anyone will match them down the stretch. The Brewers are up 1-0 through 6, but we are not rebuilt enough to challenge them next year. You can see it in every play they make. Everything is close, even when it shouldn't be. Javier Biaz' tag is like lightning, faster than any I've seen. Strong arms in every field and DEEP beyond them.

I think if you had to build your team off of 9 Kris Bryants, gave them each a spring training to figure it out, you could build a winning team. He can play anywhere, so forget situational shifting. He just plays a different position.

I bet if he had to pitch his fast ball is 90 mph. Give me 9 Kris Bryants as a manager, I'll be alright.

They don't need a "third-baseman" to pitch though, because they have team pitching stats out of a video game, a full .40 team ERA better than the next best team
ERA: 3.08
CG:5
K/IP:1239/1234
BAA: .209

That BAA is best in the league by a mile too (WA-.232)

The Cubs have been in the bottom of a division they should always have owned. They have the money no other team in the division can muster. The Cardinals are generally a lower-payroll team ($80-120M). Brewers are just recently willing to pay that. The Brewers struggle to sign free agents but I'm actually pretty happy with the rebuild so far. We have the best minor league system in baseball after moving all our pieces. That's what you want.

However, nobody is going to challenge these Cubs right now. They've turned the corner and are leading the league by a 3 lengths.

Everyone else is going to have to get better. These Cubs are built to last, and their management (who have actually not inflated budgets much to get here) has plenty of money it's staked to retain and add as necessary.

Notice who DIDN'T make any moves before the trade deadline? They didn't need to. They don't need to give up anybody. They like who they have and I don't blame 'em. They are good enough to challenge the Cubs' own records of total wins in the future.

Not a great time to be a Brewer, but it's a good time to be a fan of baseball. The NL Central is a really fun division. It's been Cardinal supremacy for too long. Now the Pirates are stronger, the Cubs are amazing, the Cardinals are fraying, and the Brewers solidly building. What will the future hold? Fun to watch.

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We must develop and maintain the capacity to forgive. He who is devoid of the power to forgive is devoid of the power to love.-MLK.

yes, they are legit. of course the regular season is the regular season but still.

and i think the cleveland baseball team (gonna stop using the name) might be legit as well. their starters are good although they had a bumpy patch as did the cubs. and their bullpen was seriously upgraded by acquiring andrew miller. while they don't have a true superstar (lindor may become one since it seems he is on his way in that direction and brantley has been injured all season) they have been producing offensively all year. and their defense is much better.

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bird's theorem-"we the people" are stupid.

"No one is so foolish as to choose war over peace. In peace sons bury their fathers, in war fathers bury their sons." - Herodotus

Sure, anyone can have a bad stretch in the playoffs and get bumped. They have a margin of error to work with now, but there is an experience gap.

I haven't followed that Cleveland team that closely, but I know they were vying for Lucroy. Now their enemy has him. Lucroy is highly rated, and still under-rated. He's a two-way catcher and a true captain behind home plate. They gave up a lot of talent for him though. The Brewers now control at least 8 major big league prospects for OF, including mostly CF. That's insane, and they will use those players as chips to fill in gaps. There is a lot of reason to like those already playing in the bigs.

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We must develop and maintain the capacity to forgive. He who is devoid of the power to forgive is devoid of the power to love.-MLK.

lucroy had a clause in his contract which allowed him to veto any trade to several teams including cleveland. the hang-up allegedly was that lucroy wanted a guarantee that he would be the starting catcher next season. again allegedly the cleveland team wouldn't give him that. of course fans are not privy to those negotiations and the media while having better access could only guess.

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bird's theorem-"we the people" are stupid.

"No one is so foolish as to choose war over peace. In peace sons bury their fathers, in war fathers bury their sons." - Herodotus

That's the same story I heard. It is important for Lucroy to play in his contract year. I think he will probably become the highest paid catcher in baseball.

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We must develop and maintain the capacity to forgive. He who is devoid of the power to forgive is devoid of the power to love.-MLK.

Well, that was painful.

And to think there were some people who said the isotopes could win this game. Congrats on the 'topes making Carson Wentz who allegedly had issues in the pre-season look like a bonafide NFL qb in his first start. Another safety due to a bad snap.

I said in the comments section on Cleveland.com that nobody could say with certainty whether the new fo were geniuses or idiots. And I stick to that position. I will say that this game does not give any good feelings re: the talent. Yes, there were some glimpses here and there but it is going to take a long time, 3-5 years, to see how this fo works out. That goes for the coaching staff as well except perhaps for Horton whose previous experience here might make him quicker to be cut if the defense doesn't show better development.

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bird's theorem-"we the people" are stupid.

"No one is so foolish as to choose war over peace. In peace sons bury their fathers, in war fathers bury their sons." - Herodotus

Well, that didn't take long. RG3 with a broken bone in his shoulder likely out for 8 weeks.

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bird's theorem-"we the people" are stupid.

"No one is so foolish as to choose war over peace. In peace sons bury their fathers, in war fathers bury their sons." - Herodotus