The Christmas Thread

[ProfX]

I have not seen an episode of Santa Inc. I don't know what the show is about. I've just seen the slightest bit of clips and trailers.

I understand it stars (as a voice actress, everything's animated) Sarah Silverman as a female Santa elf named "Candy" and Seth Rogen is the voice of Santa Claus. I really don't know much more about it than two other things.

1. Conservatives seem to think it is part of this so-called war on Xmas, I wonder why?
2. It does have low ratings on Rotten Tomatoes, the comedy in it looks raunchy, but is comedy of this type a raunchy-free zone?

Boy they seem to hate it. Shocker: some have zeroed in on the fact that both Silverman and Rogen are ... well ... you know ... and left anti-Semitic comments on their "reviews". Joy to the world.

It looks like lowbrow humor ... do Silverman & Rogen ever do any other kind? ... is it that it's lowbrow Xmas-themed humor that bothers them so much?



Seth Rogen claims white supremacists are review-bombing ‘Santa Inc.’
The filmmaker said his new HBO Max series “really pissed off tens of thousands of white supremacists”
https://www.nme.com/news/tv/seth-rogen- ... nc-3110961

Again - to be clear I haven't seen an episode - I'm only going on the bits I've seen - is it really so much "Anti-Xmas" as kind of spoofing the way it's often depicted in children's specials?

[gounion]

I've got HBO Max. I'll give it a watch tomorrow and let you know Prof.

[Drak]

I tried watching it a turned it off after 10 mins.

[ProfX]

Don't know what I've seen; as I've said, haven't seen any of it. Know what I've read, and what I've come across (largely before shutting it off) with people ranting against it on youtoob.

Seems like all the usual crap: too "woke"; "how dare you do Xmas as raunchy comedy it must be treated with absolute reverence"; and come on, every review bomb seems to focus on the issue I pointed to above.

It seems, yes, ironically, "Candy Smalls" the elf who goes to work for Santa and is voiced by Silverman is ... well, you know.

Silverman and Rogen’s ‘Santa Inc.’ brings raunch and activism to Christmas
https://www.jweekly.com/2021/12/16/topi ... santa-inc/

In American culture, even in non-religious circles, Christmas is sacrosanct. It’s family get-togethers, presents for kids, twinkly lights and cozy pajamas, or anticipating the 45 minutes when snow is magic before it becomes gross and treacherous.

And Christmas movies and TV shows are defined by character journeys along well-trod paths toward realizing “the true spirit of Christmas.”

Taking a creative shot at secular Christmas with any tones other than benevolent and ingratiating is on the spectrum between surprising and sacrilege, but the new HBO Max animated series “Santa Inc.” leans happily toward the latter, with Sarah Silverman voicing Candy Smalls (a North Pole elf who campaigns to be the next Santa Claus) and Seth Rogen voicing the current Claus (who’s in charge of choosing his successor).

Realizing that she has to be “one of the guys,” even if those guys are idiots, Candy campaigns at the expense of her personal relationships, and shows everyone how capable she is. As she fights the internalized patriarchy, she’s torn between wanting to be herself and kowtowing to Kris Kringle, the board and the male corporate culture.

The reason Candy gets a shot is because Santa’s heir apparent, a Black man, is poached by Jeff Bezos for a high-level position at Amazon. “I’m the most progressive Santa in history. I’m a real change agent,” Rogen’s Santa says, noting that he was going to make history by appointing a Black Santa. But because Candy “checks off two boxes, woman and Jew,” choosing her will elevate his legacy from merely historic to legendary.

The eight-episode, half-hour series is raunchy and weird, a coalescence of crudeness and social-justice issues. Alongside social critiques of corporate culture and Christmas, there’s lots of wild swings and graphic, gratuitous elf nudity. “Santa Inc.” has a core of advocacy and activism tuned to today’s cultural moment, calling out pay and job inequity, lackluster diversity efforts, corruption and sexism.

But if online rankings are an indicator, people did not like this odd amalgam. At press time, it had a 1.5 out of 10 on IMDb (despite being No. 18 on its list of most popular titles) and 4% on Rotten Tomatoes.

Because Candy says that the Santa business has been “a white man’s game for too long,” some on Twitter called the series “a war on whiteness.” Trolling campaigns of antisemites and Holocaust deniers panned the trailer, creating and circulating a list of all the Jews associated with the series (the long list of producers includes Rogen and his longtime creative partner, Evan Goldberg, Silverman, Seth Green, showrunner Alexandra Rushfield and Silverman’s producing partner, Amy Zvi) and pointing out Black voice actors who have supported Black Lives Matter. Conservatives, probably never the intended audience, recoiled at the perceived liberal agenda around equality.

Others objected to Holocaust jokes ranging from mild (“Good news, sir: More American kids believe in you than they do in vaccines or the Holocaust”) to the barely contextual (“Keep the rumors in your annex, Anne Frank”).

These factors seem to have alienated some of the micro-audiences who would have otherwise been all-in for a Silverman-Rogen team-up.

Candy’s Jewish identity comes out not through Hanukkah wishes but through language. “Bashert,” fresh from its recent guest appearance on “Curb Your Enthusiasm,” makes a cameo here (preceded by the f-word and followed by “that’s ‘meant to be’ in the language of my Jewish peeps”), as does “tzedakah.” There’s a TV reporter named Rivka Spinster (she’s a dreidel), and while trading barbs, Candy talks about being an intern for Passover and proclaims her love for haroset. Jewish viewers may experience some discomfort around the Candy’s family, who are short and have exaggerated features — but, you know, elves — and are also money-grubbing, loud and insensitive. Then again, they’re also prone to fits of full frontal flashing and graphic sexual escapades.

Historically, Jews in Hollywood, while undeniably present and influential, kept their Jewish identities on the down-low and downplayed difference, slipping more easily into the dominant culture. Jews wrote Christmas songs, produced Christmas movies and tried to avoid anything that looked like cultural crucifixion. And in the Jewish community, some might feel uncomfortable with this critical narrative being told by and featuring Jews. Sure, Christmas has become materialistic, but why are we pointing this out?

It might have been interesting to go deeper into the culture of Santa Inc.’s workers by establishing the North Pole as an analog to the Lower East Side’s garment district (harsh working conditions and low pay with the occasional breakthrough success story). Rogen visited that world briefly in his 2020 comedy-drama “An American Pickle,” which got better, but still mixed, reviews.

By the end of “Santa Inc.” Candy is able to achieve change for her colleagues and has chutzpah to spare, but her heart is different. Despite the presence of a “mazel tov” — “Yay! Jewish phrases of joy! We’re all happy now!” says one character — the traditional Christmas ending is nowhere to be found. Candy’s activism has achieved some larger goals, but she’s frustrated and feels the futility of fighting entrenched patriarchal systems. As one character says, “You can’t beat tradition; that’s Christmas.”

[snip][end]

[ProfX]

I tried watching it a turned it off after 10 mins.

It's not my type of humor, honestly; I like the social justice agenda but I think they are pushing it in a weird and awkward way; nothing about it looks great to me, but ... could the cons please stop leaving anti-Semitic comments in their review bombs?

[gounion]

It's not my type of humor, honestly; I like the social justice agenda but I think they are pushing it in a weird and awkward way; nothing about it looks great to me, but ... could the cons please stop leaving anti-Semitic comments in their review bombs?

Why should they? They ARE anti-Semitic. Of course, Glenn says he's very much against anti-Semitism, but he's always quiet when it comes from the right. The only reason the right supports Israel is that their religion says that Israel will be where Armageddon starts, so Jesus can come back. That's what they want - a big war in the Middle East. Not a Seth Rogan fan, but I do like a lot of what Sarah Silverman has done, so I'll give it a try.

[Drak]

It's not my type of humor, honestly; I like the social justice agenda but I think they are pushing it in a weird and awkward way; nothing about it looks great to me, but ... could the cons please stop leaving anti-Semitic comments in their review bombs?

Just seemed too silly for my tastes and not my humour either. I have a rule that if cartoon shows don’t catch my attention in 5 or 10 mins they get turned off. But those leaving vile, racist comments can fk off.

[ProfX]

Not a Seth Rogan fan, but I do like a lot of what Sarah Silverman has done, so I'll give it a try.

He did one recent film I really like.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/An_American_Pickle

An American Pickle is a 2020 American comedy-drama film directed by Brandon Trost (in his solo directorial debut) and written by Simon Rich, based on his 2013 short story "Sell Out".[3] The film stars Seth Rogen as an Eastern European Jewish immigrant who gets preserved in a vat of pickles and wakes up a century later in modern-day New York City, attempting to fit in with the assistance of his last remaining descendant (also played by Rogen).

[snip][end]

As a Jewish American there is so much nostalgia and other things they nail in this comedy that really resonates for me. It is about the Jewish American experience and what's changed over a century or so. I can still tell you to this day you know the best Jewish delis because they have the best pickles.

BTW, I think it's "universal" enough to be enjoyed by anybody: I'm not Black, I'm not even a fan of the NOI, but I thought "Malcolm X" was an awesome film.... I'm just saying for a Jewish person, there's some stuff that really resonates.

To return to a final point, I know I've argued about Israel on these boards before - I'm just gonna repeat for many American Jews like myself it's a matter of direct importance because we have family members living there. Evangelical Christians love it for it fitting into some eschatological fantasy of theirs; American Jews have to deal with it as a messy reality that intersects with our lives.

All that said, I have never, as I've said, been a fan of the RW Netanyahu governments there, anymore than I have been a fan of RW governments anywhere, and I am a supporter of a 2-state solution for Palestinians.

[Drak]

He did one recent film I really like.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/An_American_Pickle

An American Pickle is a 2020 American comedy-drama film directed by Brandon Trost (in his solo directorial debut) and written by Simon Rich, based on his 2013 short story "Sell Out".[3] The film stars Seth Rogen as an Eastern European Jewish immigrant who gets preserved in a vat of pickles and wakes up a century later in modern-day New York City, attempting to fit in with the assistance of his last remaining descendant (also played by Rogen).

[snip][end]

As a Jewish American there is so much nostalgia and other things they nail in this comedy that really resonates for me. It is about the Jewish American experience and what's changed over a century or so. I can still tell you to this day you know the best Jewish delis because they have the best pickles.

BTW, I think it's "universal" enough to be enjoyed by anybody: I'm not Black, I'm not even a fan of the NOI, but I thought "Malcolm X" was an awesome film.... I'm just saying for a Jewish person, there's some stuff that really resonates.

To return to a final point, I know I've argued about Israel on these boards before - I'm just gonna repeat for many American Jews like myself it's a matter of direct importance because we have family members living there. Evangelical Christians love it for it fitting into some eschatological fantasy of theirs; American Jews have to deal with it as a messy reality that intersects with our lives.

All that said, I have never, as I've said, been a fan of the RW Netanyahu governments there, anymore than I have been a fan of RW governments anywhere, and I am a supporter of a 2-state solution for Palestinians.

American Pickle was a good movie. I went in with low expectations not knowing what it was about and was pleasantly surprised.

[marindem01]

I'm debating HBO or HBO MAX.

[Motor City]

Marianne on Christmas and Hope.

The Metaphysics of Christmas

The inner gold beneath the garish nonsense.


............“The birth of Christ” is the same concept of the more secular notion of self-actualization. It means an embrace of the larger possibilities of what it means to be human, a deeper realization of who we are, and the unlimited possibilities inherent in our learning to love the world.

Mary is the heart, and Joseph is the worldly self that navigates the mortal world. There was no room in the inn (the intellect) for Mary and Joseph to rest, yet Mary found a manger (a humble, naked, raw and authentic spot within our consciousness) where Mary could give birth. It’s in our humility, not our arrogance, where we’ll find our power to save the world.

And that power does reside within us; just ask “the three kings.” Encountering the child, they get down from their high horses and bow before him - displaying the power of an innocent, loving space in our consciousness, one that comes into any moment like a newborn infant, without the past, just ready to love everyone. No material authority, no political or economic power, will ultimately prevail before a humanity risen from its spiritual forgetfulness.

So it is and so it shall be. And there lies our hope…

Merry Christmas, everyone. May all of us remember this year, who we really are and what is really going on.

[Number6]

I've got HBO Max. I'll give it a watch tomorrow and let you know Prof.

I have HBO but not HBO Max and according to IMDB it's on HBO Max. I normally don't watch Christmas movies but with Sarah SIlverman in it it may be worth watching.

[Glennfs]

Why should they? They ARE anti-Semitic. Of course, Glenn says he's very much against anti-Semitism, but he's always quiet when it comes from the right. The only reason the right supports Israel is that their religion says that Israel will be where Armageddon starts, so Jesus can come back. That's what they want - a big war in the Middle East. Not a Seth Rogan fan, but I do like a lot of what Sarah Silverman has done, so I'll give it a try.

Your beliefs about why Republicans support Israel are totally wrong.
But that aside I am glad to learn you support the House condemning the ant semitic statement's of Rep Ilhan

https://www.congress.gov/bill/116th-con ... n/241/text

[gounion]

Your beliefs about why Republicans support Israel are totally wrong.
But that aside I am glad to learn you support the House condemning the ant semitic statement's of Rep Ilhan

https://www.congress.gov/bill/116th-con ... n/241/text

The right is and has always been anti-Semitic. But they want to see Armageddon come so they support there being an Israel so their interpretation of the Bible will come true and the earth will end. That's simply true.

Do you condemn the anti-Semitism from the right against people like George Soros?

[Glennfs]

The right is and has always been anti-Semitic. But they want to see Armageddon come so they support there being an Israel so their interpretation of the Bible will come true and the earth will end. That's simply true.

Do you condemn the anti-Semitism from the right against people like George Soros?

Disagreement with Soros does not equate to anti semitism

As for your other belief link please to show where Republican support of Israel is linked to armageddon

[gounion]

Disagreement with Soros does not equate to anti semitism

As for your other belief link please to show where Republican support of Israel is linked to armageddon

Sure. Right here, for example:

The connection between Christian Zionists and Israel

Many fundamentalist Christians are Zionists who believe Jews must return to Israel to rule. There are an estimated 40 million fundamentalist Christian Zionists in the United States, and Professor Paul Rogers, Bradford University, has claimed about one third of Americas’s 100 million Evangelicals support Christian Zionism.

American academic Donald Wagner writes widely about Christian Zionists who, with neo-conservatives, support hard-line Israeli politics. He has also charted how many American Christians consider that securing Israel for the Jewish people represents fulfilment of God’s plan. Indeed, Pew Research Centre found that 69 per cent of white Evangelicals believe God gave Israel to the Jewish people, and 59 per cent believe that Israel is the fulfilment of biblical prophecy.

Second, they believe that a worldwide conflagration at Armageddon will occur as a final battle between God and Satan. When (not if) God’s side wins, the prophecy stated in the Biblical book of Revelations can be fulfilled: the return to earth of Jesus and the lifting up to heaven of believing Christians.

In the main passages (Revelations 6-8) depicting the end of the world, major events happen: religious deception, war, famine, disease, persecution of Christians, earthquakes and other disasters, and finally, overwhelming devastation of the earth’s vegetation, rivers, and oceans. The last stages include partial darkening of sun, moon and stars, culminating with the sound of trumpets in a final clash between violent armies.

This may not be bad news for everyone: as one Christian website put it: ‘The end times mark not the end of the world, but the end of an age—and the beginning of a far better one’.

[Drak]

This is the leader of the Republican Party

Trump uses anti-Semitic tropes to again criticize Jewish Americans
https://www.cnn.com/2021/12/17/politics ... index.html

Former President Donald Trump, in a newly released interview, claimed that Jewish Americans "either don't like Israel or don't care about Israel," while also suggesting that evangelical Christians "love Israel more than the Jews in this country."

Trump's comments are the latest in a series of controversial remarks he has been known to make about Jewish Americans. During his first campaign for president, Trump delivered a speech to the Republican Jewish Coalition that was rife with anti-Semitic stereotypes. More recently, he told conservative radio host Ari Hoffman that "Israel literally owned Congress...10 years ago, 15 years ago... and today it's almost the opposite."

[snip]

"It used to be that Israel had absolute power over Congress, and today I think it's the exact opposite. And I think Obama and Biden did that," Trump charged. "And yet in the election, they still get a lot of votes from the Jewish people. Which tells you that the Jewish people, and I've said this for a long time, the Jewish people in the United States either don't like Israel or don't care about Israel."

In the same interview, Trump suggested that The New York Times "hates Israel" even though "they're Jewish people that run The New York Times." (For decades, the paper has been owned by the Sulzberger family, though its employees, including its top editors, come from all backgrounds).

[snip]

"F**k him," Trump said of Netanyahu, according to a report by Axios.
"The first person that congratulated [Biden] was Bibi Netanyahu, the man that I did more for than any other person I dealt with ... Bibi could have stayed quiet. He has made a terrible mistake," Trump reportedly said.

[snip][end]

I actually care about Israel a lot, Agent Orange. What I don't care for is YOU.

Obama provided Israel with its Iron Dome defense system.

Thanks for reinforcing anti-semitic stereotypes that Israel "controlled" Congress or your obvious insinuation that Jews somehow run and control the New York Times.

And I am not a fan of Bibi by any means, but you once again prove your one-way loyalty street nature in spades.

Unlike evangelical Christians, Israel isn't important to me because of some theological or eschatological fantasy. It's because many members of my family live there. I usually can see you have no idea what you're talking about, Agent Orange, but especially here.

[marindem01]

This is the leader of the Republican Party

But CRT is bad.

[ZoWie]

Some major figures in the right are definitely down with the Armageddon thing. Others aren't. It's another one of their silly ideas, like Q, which also seems to be turning millennarian.

War on Christmas is another one of their tired word games, like CRT and the others. It seems to be losing its punch.

Say, how come no one ever thinks drumpf is the Biblical false prophet?

[rainwater]

If you need help, here's how to do it.

Click on the image and save it to your computer.
Open the image in your browser and resize it so it's not larger than 199 253 x 253 pixels and save.
On the RFL, click on you name and go to the control panel.
Go to Profile
Click on Edit Avatar
Click on Browse and upload your picture from your computer and then click Submit.

That should do it.

this is like reading russian for me.

so far ive got it in email. truly appreciate all the help.

[ProfX]

Some major figures in the right are definitely down with the Armageddon thing.

It's not really a political ideology, it's a theological thing.

There is this thing called the Book of Revelation. It's in the New Testament. Some weird ass mofo named John of Patmos was hitting the absinthe, and saw some really strange hallucinatory visions of beasts rising up out of the ocean. He ranted about the Beast 666, and if you know gematria, he was really referring to the contemporary Roman Emperor, Nero, not Ronald Wilson Reagan. (6 letters in each name, BTW).

Well, until they take out the Book of Revelation, you kinda have these passages that say the twelve tribes of Israel must return to the New Jerusalem through its gates, and that will enable the second coming of Christ. Also Har Megiddo is a very real place in Israel in the Jezreel Valley - it's an archaeological site with a Solomonic fortress - I've been there - this is what John is referring to as "Armageddon". I mean - it's there - as always, I guess you have your choice.

You can read Biblical scholars that suggest John was talking about things that he thought would come to pass "RSN" since his Beast 666 is the Roman Emperor. Let's call that "the preterist view". Basically, as he says himself, "the things I am prophesizing will come to pass before some of my audience dies". He's as clear as he can be without being arrested by the Roman PTB that he's talking about a cosmic war against the Roman Empire as the apocalyptic struggle.

Or you can be a fundamentalist whack job who thinks John was talking about things that would happen 2000 years later, which seems to be a misreading and misunderstanding, and try and shoehorn post-1948 historical reality into a distorted theological view. Then you can start getting into all this crap a bizarre theologian named Darby came up with, and invented out of his ass, excuse me, thought he found in Revelation, this thing called "The Rapture" and you can start getting into all the Hal Lindsay crap of how the EEC was somehow the Beast John was writing about. (Barely worked in the 70s, doesn't work at all now.)

Modern day Christian millenarianism is a funny thing. You have two factions arguing over whether the Tribulation will precede or follow the Rapture. In case you are curious, the Branch Davidians at Waco were premillennialists. But IMHO the Rapture is an ass-pull from Darby.

Please note I have no dog in the hunt of how to do Christian theology, I'm focusing on textual interpretation and hermeneutics.

Final point: not all Christian Zionism is rooted in millenarianism, It's more complicated , but look when people say then or now "Jews" controlled Congress there are far more Christian Zionists in this country than Jewish ones. And Jewish Zionism comes in a lot of flavors, including Labor, Progressive, and Cultural Zionism.

And so here we are in the Christmas thread. Joy to the world. I don't celebrate, but I enjoy it as a cultural American holiday. I like looking at the lights. People put weird stuff on their trees. There are some awesome songs, like Grandma Got Run Over by a Reindeer. And man, as a kid, did I enjoy some of those specials about Rudolf the Red-Nosed Reindeer.

[gounion]

The reality is that Christmas is NOT a religious holiday. Heck, the pretend Christ wasn't born on Dec. 25th. Christmas is a pagan holiday. It's the winter solstice. It wasn't even a holiday in the US until 1870. Almost NONE of the traditions of Christmas are Christian. It's like everything else about Christianity - it's made up.

I happily enjoy the holiday. It's the one thing - okay, along with the Super Bowl - that gets us through the dreariness of winter.

But of course the right has to make a war out of it and DEMAND that NO ONE says "happy holidays". Fuck them.

[ProfX]

We all know the war on Xmas is a fiction. Zowie's right that even Faux is starting to realize their bogus meme is losing traction.

Some homeless nut sets their Xmas tree on fire, it's suddenly part of this leftist "war". Uh huh. (If the whole thing wasn't an insurance scam.)

I used to love the Hebrew Hammer movie, even at one point used it as my avatar. It's a schlock comedy movie, much like the Santa Inc series seems to be. I just thought it was funny. It's this Jewish quasi-superhero who seems modeled on blaxploitation characters like Shaft vs. the Evil Son of Santa Claus. What can I tell you, I liked it. Not because I hate Xmas, but I DO hate all this bullshit about Jews or liberals waging "war" on it.

Look guys. Seriously. "Happy holidays" is just acknowledging there's lots of people in this country celebrating lots of things this season. Hanukah, Xmas, Diwali, Kwanzaa, Festivus, Yule/winter solstice, New Years - that somebody put that on your Starbuck's cup instead of "Merry Xmas" is not going to make you die from drinking your latte. It is not part of any "war on Xmas".

It is, of course, like so much from Faux, a BS distraction from real problems, meant to pry along cultural fault-lines.

[gounion]

We all know the war on Xmas is a fiction. Zowie's right that even Faux is starting to realize their bogus meme is losing traction.

Some homeless nut sets their Xmas tree on fire, it's suddenly part of this leftist "war". Uh huh. (If the whole thing wasn't an insurance scam.)

I used to love the Hebrew Hammer movie, even at one point used it as my avatar. It's a schlock comedy movie, much like the Santa Inc series seems to be. I just thought it was funny. It's this Jewish quasi-superhero who seems modeled on blaxploitation characters like Shaft vs. the Evil Son of Santa Claus. What can I tell you, I liked it. Not because I hate Xmas, but I DO hate all this bullshit about Jews or liberals waging "war" on it.

Look guys. Seriously. "Happy holidays" is just acknowledging there's lots of people in this country celebrating lots of things this season. Hanukah, Xmas, Diwali, Kwanzaa, Festivus, Yule/winter solstice, New Years - that somebody put that on your Starbuck's cup instead of "Merry Xmas" is not going to make you die from drinking your latte. It is not part of any "war on Xmas".

It is, of course, like so much from Faux, a BS distraction from real problems, meant to pry along cultural fault-lines.

Even for a Christian, it's the holiday SEASON. Starts with Thanksgiving, ends with Super Bowl Su... err, I mean, New Years Day.

And all retailers want to do is SELL, SELL, SELL. They want you to buy Thanksgiving food, they want you to come out for Black Friday, for Cyber Monday, for Hanukah. They don't want to exclude ANYONE - so, therefore, Happy Holidays! It's the season to BUY!

But Republicans are assholes, who want everyone to do as ordered. Fuck them.

[Motor City]

It's not really a political ideology, it's a theological thing.

There is this thing called the Book of Revelation. It's in the New Testament. Some weird ass mofo named John of Patmos was hitting the absinthe, and saw some really strange hallucinatory visions of beasts rising up out of the ocean. He ranted about the Beast 666, and if you know gematria, he was really referring to the contemporary Roman Emperor, Nero, not Ronald Wilson Reagan. (6 letters in each name, BTW).

Well, until they take out the Book of Revelation, you kinda have these passages that say the twelve tribes of Israel must return to the New Jerusalem through its gates, and that will enable the second coming of Christ. Also Har Megiddo is a very real place in Israel in the Jezreel Valley - it's an archaeological site with a Solomonic fortress - I've been there - this is what John is referring to as "Armageddon". I mean - it's there - as always, I guess you have your choice.

You can read Biblical scholars that suggest John was talking about things that he thought would come to pass "RSN" since his Beast 666 is the Roman Emperor. Let's call that "the preterist view". Basically, as he says himself, "the things I am prophesizing will come to pass before some of my audience dies". He's as clear as he can be without being arrested by the Roman PTB that he's talking about a cosmic war against the Roman Empire as the apocalyptic struggle.

Or you can be a fundamentalist whack job who thinks John was talking about things that would happen 2000 years later, which seems to be a misreading and misunderstanding, and try and shoehorn post-1948 historical reality into a distorted theological view. Then you can start getting into all this crap a bizarre theologian named Darby came up with, and invented out of his ass, excuse me, thought he found in Revelation, this thing called "The Rapture" and you can start getting into all the Hal Lindsay crap of how the EEC was somehow the Beast John was writing about. (Barely worked in the 70s, doesn't work at all now.)

Modern day Christian millenarianism is a funny thing. You have two factions arguing over whether the Tribulation will precede or follow the Rapture. In case you are curious, the Branch Davidians at Waco were premillennialists. But IMHO the Rapture is an ass-pull from Darby.

Please note I have no dog in the hunt of how to do Christian theology, I'm focusing on textual interpretation and hermeneutics.

Final point: not all Christian Zionism is rooted in millenarianism, It's more complicated , but look when people say then or now "Jews" controlled Congress there are far more Christian Zionists in this country than Jewish ones. And Jewish Zionism comes in a lot of flavors, including Labor, Progressive, and Cultural Zionism.

And so here we are in the Christmas thread. Joy to the world. I don't celebrate, but I enjoy it as a cultural American holiday. I like looking at the lights. People put weird stuff on their trees. There are some awesome songs, like Grandma Got Run Over by a Reindeer. And man, as a kid, did I enjoy some of those specials about Rudolf the Red-Nosed Reindeer.

Could be the number is an algorithm, they already are being used to limit and name who buys and sells. Maybe a warning of the inevitability such an end by linking everything in such a way.