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PostPosted: Sun Nov 25, 2012 2:23 pm 
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This is a story the righties will hate:

BEMIDJI, MINN. - Joe Lueken spent 46 years becoming a successful grocer and community benefactor here. Finally, at 70, he's ready to sell the business, travel the world with his wife, Janice, and reap some of what they've sown.

So when he strides into his south Bemidji supermarket and 2 1/2-year employee Maria Svare smiles broadly and asks him, "How do you like my store today?" it might sound like a joke.

But it's not. And that's part of why hundreds of Bemidji residents are thankful this holiday season for Joe Lueken.

On Jan. 1, Lueken's Village Foods, with two supermarkets in Bemidji and another in Wahpeton, N.D., will begin transferring ownership to its approximately 400 employees through an Employee Stock Ownership Program (ESOP).

Lueken said he had multiple offers to sell to large independent chains and might have gotten more money that way. But he and his family believe that selling to workers will be better for them, the business and this north-central Minnesota city of 13,000 people.

"My employees are largely responsible for any success I've had, and they deserve to get some of the benefits of that," Lueken said earlier this week. "You can't always take. You also have to give back."

Employees say Lueken's decision, which won't require them to pay anything for their shares in the business, multiplied the high esteem they already held for their boss.


"You can't always take"??? "My employees are largely responsible for any success I've had"???

The man must be a socialist, eh? After all, employees are only responsible for DESTROYING businesses. The owners and CEOs are responsible for success, not lazy workers.

This is the kind of business owner the right hates. They love the ones who cut wages, steal pensions and ship jobs to China.

GoU


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 25, 2012 2:32 pm 
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This is a story the righties will hate:

BEMIDJI, MINN. - Joe Lueken spent 46 years becoming a successful grocer and community benefactor here. Finally, at 70, he's ready to sell the business, travel the world with his wife, Janice, and reap some of what they've sown.

So when he strides into his south Bemidji supermarket and 2 1/2-year employee Maria Svare smiles broadly and asks him, "How do you like my store today?" it might sound like a joke.

But it's not. And that's part of why hundreds of Bemidji residents are thankful this holiday season for Joe Lueken.

On Jan. 1, Lueken's Village Foods, with two supermarkets in Bemidji and another in Wahpeton, N.D., will begin transferring ownership to its approximately 400 employees through an Employee Stock Ownership Program (ESOP).

Lueken said he had multiple offers to sell to large independent chains and might have gotten more money that way. But he and his family believe that selling to workers will be better for them, the business and this north-central Minnesota city of 13,000 people.

"My employees are largely responsible for any success I've had, and they deserve to get some of the benefits of that," Lueken said earlier this week. "You can't always take. You also have to give back."

Employees say Lueken's decision, which won't require them to pay anything for their shares in the business, multiplied the high esteem they already held for their boss.


"You can't always take"??? "My employees are largely responsible for any success I've had"???

The man must be a socialist, eh? After all, employees are only responsible for DESTROYING businesses. The owners and CEOs are responsible for success, not lazy workers.

This is the kind of business owner the right hates. They love the ones who cut wages, steal pensions and ship jobs to China.

GoU


Thats a great story. My only question is at what rate should this gentleman be taxed after he sells his business?


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 25, 2012 2:37 pm 
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Thats a great story. My only question is at what rate should this gentleman be taxed after he sells his business?

Income is income. His profits should be taxed at the same progressive rate that his employees are taxed.

I'll bet that this man has no problem paying his taxes. Greed obviously does not run this man's life.

It's the greedy conservatives that hate to pay taxes. They also hate paying their employees. They think that both things are stealing from him.

GoU


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 25, 2012 2:47 pm 
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Income is income. His profits should be taxed at the same progressive rate that his employees are taxed.

I'll bet that this man has no problem paying his taxes. Greed obviously does not run this man's life.

It's the greedy conservatives that hate to pay taxes. They also hate paying their employees. They think that both things are stealing from him.

GoU


Would this be considered income or capital gains? If not capital gains then should the profit from selling ones house also be considered income and should that be taxed at regular income rates?


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 25, 2012 3:01 pm 
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In my opinion, income is income is income. It should all be taxed at a progressive rate. Including capital gains and income you get from inheritance.

GoU


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 25, 2012 3:02 pm 
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Would this be considered income or capital gains? If not capital gains then should the profit from selling ones house also be considered income and should that be taxed at regular income rates?


"Deferring Taxation Using the Section 1042 "Rollover"

Providing for business continuity is one of the most difficult challenges for closely held companies. Even if buyers can be found, the terms of their offers may not be acceptable, either financially or personally. For example, a buyer may want to shut down the company or eliminate valued employees. As hard as it is to sell a business outright, it is even harder to sell it in stages, allowing for a gradual withdrawal by the owner; or partially, allowing heirs, key managers, or others to have a partial ownership interest.

An ESOP provides a way to accomplish these goals in a tax-advantaged manner and to manage the sale process more effectively. First, as described above, the ESOP allows the company to use pretax dollars to buy out the owners. This can be done under whatever schedule is practical. Second, the seller(s) can defer capital gains taxation on the sale proceeds."

http://www.nceo.org/articles/esop-tax-i ... ion-limits

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 25, 2012 3:08 pm 
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Would this be considered income or capital gains? If not capital gains then should the profit from selling ones house also be considered income and should that be taxed at regular income rates?

The income is only the profit.

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 25, 2012 3:16 pm 
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Exactly, jdogg. But once again, this is not current tax law, this is just what I think it should be, and I think I can make a strong moral case for it.

GoU


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 25, 2012 3:22 pm 
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As posted previously, the ESOP route allows the owner certain tax advantages, including rollover of capital gains.

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 25, 2012 3:58 pm 
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In my opinion, income is income is income. It should all be taxed at a progressive rate. Including capital gains and income you get from inheritance.

GoU


Would you also be against the homeowner exemption, that many people use to augment their retirement?


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 25, 2012 4:03 pm 
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The income is only the profit.



How do you figure the profit of a business that was built up over 20-30 years. Assuming he started out small with one store then built it up to 2-3 stores and increased his business over the 20-30 year period?


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 25, 2012 4:07 pm 
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As posted previously, the ESOP route allows the owner certain tax advantages, including rollover of capital gains.


The question wasn't about current tax laws but given the debate over the rich paying their fair share, what percentage should he pay?

Go has stated his opinion clearly but given at face value his approach would hurt middle class also.


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 25, 2012 4:09 pm 
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The question wasn't about current tax laws but given the debate over the rich paying their fair share, what percentage should he pay?

Go has staed his opinion fairly clearly but given at face value his approach would hurt middle class also.

Hurt the middle class? Sounds like you're more concerned about the rich to me.

I believe in progressive taxation. The rich SHOULD pay more.

What do YOU believe in?

GoU


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 25, 2012 4:23 pm 
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Hurt the middle class? Sounds like you're more concerned about the rich to me.

I believe in progressive taxation. The rich SHOULD pay more.

What do YOU believe in?

GoU

You didn't answer my question. Are you also against the homowner exemption to the capital gains tax law? Should progressive taxation be absolute, with no exemptions for anyone, regardless of income level?

Personally I believe that the gentleman that built up his business should enjoy the fruit of his labor without excessive taxation (this doesn't mean tax free). Of course he always has the right to donate any of his profits to the government if that's his desire.


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 25, 2012 4:46 pm 
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You didn't answer my question. Are you also against the homowner exemption to the capital gains tax law? Should progressive taxation be absolute, with no exemptions for anyone, regardless of income level?

I believe capital gains should be taxed at the same rate as anything else. I do not have a blanket aversion to exemptions, within reason.
Quote:
Personally I believe that the gentleman that built up his business should enjoy the fruit of his labor without excessive taxation (this doesn't mean tax free). Of course he always has the right to donate any of his profits to the government if that's his desire.

Of course, this man realizes that the business is the fruit of other's labor, too. He should be taxed as his employees are taxed, on a progressive scale.

GoU


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 25, 2012 5:01 pm 
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The question wasn't about current tax laws but given the debate over the rich paying their fair share, what percentage should he pay?


Bull...this was your question:

Quote:
My only question is at what rate should this gentleman be taxed after he sells his business?


The only answer to your only question is: at the applicable tax according to the current tax code.

If you have a comment to make, make a comment. If you have a question to ask, ask a question. Your original posted "question" is clearly a bullshit game. Say what you mean, mean what you say.

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 25, 2012 9:54 pm 
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[ quote]
The income is only the profit.


How do you figure the profit of a business that was built up over 20-30 years. Assuming he started out small with one store then built it up to 2-3 stores and increased his business over the 20-30 year period?[/quote]
You were asking about a house right? So now you are changing the scenario? The way that you determine the profit from a house is by deducting the original purchase price from the sale price.

The way that you determine the profit from a business is the dividends or the total sale price of the business. If you can show that you invested personal capital in to the business, I generally wouldn't have a problem with deducting that capital from the sale price, unless you've already used that investment for some sort of other deduction. Most people that are investing capital deduct that in the year that they invested it. No, you can't double dip.

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 25, 2012 10:44 pm 
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[/quote]

Bull...this was your question:

Quote:
My only question is at what rate should this gentleman be taxed after he sells his business?


The only answer to your only question is: at the applicable tax according to the current tax code.

If you have a comment to make, make a comment. If you have a question to ask, ask a question. Your original posted "question" is clearly a bullshit game. Say what you mean, mean what you say.[/quote]

I wasn't asking what the current tax code says, why would I ask anyone here that? I asked what in their opinion the man SHOULD be taxed.
Another words in your opinion what should the man be taxed. Why was that so difficult for you to understand? He obviously understood my question as he answered it. Try to pay attention.


Last edited by independent thinker on Sun Nov 25, 2012 10:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 25, 2012 10:51 pm 
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But the thread wasn't about taxation. You've done quite a job deflecting from the original intent. Congratulations.

And you certainly pushed the right-wing meme, that HE built it, and HE should enjoy "the fruits of his labor", when he obviously felt that it was the fruits of ALL his employees' labor.

I doubt if you can give me a good moral reason why someone should be able to have a lower tax rate on investment than we do on work.

GoU


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 25, 2012 11:00 pm 
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The full transition of ownership to the emplyees will take about five years.

http://www.bemidjipioneer.com/content/lueken’s-become-employee-owned-joe-lueken-will-take-lesser-role-provide-guidance

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 25, 2012 11:45 pm 
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But the thread wasn't about taxation. You've done quite a job deflecting from the original intent. Congratulations.

And you certainly pushed the right-wing meme, that HE built it, and HE should enjoy "the fruits of his labor", when he obviously felt that it was the fruits of ALL his employees' labor.

I doubt if you can give me a good moral reason why someone should be able to have a lower tax rate on investment than we do on work.

GoU


The thread is basically you using a story to attack the "right wing". Every thread you start is in some way an attack on others. Since you have such a love affair with the guy I was wondering

He did build it. In your mind who built it? If he wasn't there investing and making decisions would the company just sprout and grow on its own? Did the government build it? Did a group of employees just band together and naturally form a business that was successful enough to grow? He was the most intergal part of the companies success, without him there would be no company.

If you want to tax him at the regular tax rate then you need to figure a way for him to tally the endless hours he spent where he didn't receive houly compensation. He recieved no guarantee that the investment he made would profit him anything. If we had a flate rate tax system then maybe you have a point.


There is no doubt the tax code needs to be thoroughly revised from top to bottom, but class warfare is not a path to prosperity for anyone. Do you believe the poor are better served by a "fair" tax code or one that brings in more revenue, which in turn benefits the poor?


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 25, 2012 11:59 pm 
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The thread is basically you using a story to attack the "right wing". Every thread you start is in some way an attack on others. Since you have such a love affair with the guy I was wondering

No, I'm showing REALITY. This guy GETS IT. You obviously don't.
Quote:
He did build it. In your mind who built it? If he wasn't there investing and making decisions would the company just sprout and grow on its own? Did the government build it? Did a group of employees just band together and naturally form a business that was successful enough to grow? He was the most intergal part of the companies success, without him there would be no company.

As he said, his success is because of his employees. He'd be NOTHING without them. He couldn't run the business without them. Their hard work and dedication meant that he was able to provide goods and services to customers, who felt the value provided was worth coming back to.

Any restauranteur knows that one bad cook or waitress can stop a long-term customer from ever coming back.

You want to lay the success of the company at his feet, and his alone. Of course, his employees made him successful. So did the government, that provided the roads and utilities to his business, the infrastructure that allowed him to be able to have products shipped to his store for sale, for the banking system that allowed him to have an easy way for his customers to buy from him without having to resort to bartering for goods.
Quote:
If you want to tax him at the regular tax rate then you need to figure a way for him to tally the endless hours he spent where he didn't receive houly compensation. He recieved no guarantee that the investment he made would profit him anything. If we had a flate rate tax system then maybe you have a point.

No, he DID receive hourly compensation. His business was obviously profitable, and he's become at least quite comfortable from it. He obviously made money every week.
Quote:
There is no doubt the tax code needs to be thoroughly revised from top to bottom, but class warfare is not a path to prosperity for anyone. Do you believe the poor are better served by a "fair" tax code or one that brings in more revenue, which in turn benefits the poor?

Making the bottom pay the same rate as the top IS class warfare. You would have the single mother on minimum wage take food out of her child's mouth to pay the government, so that you could protect the poor rich guy.

The rich guy gets LOTS more out of the government than the poor person. They get an educated workforce. What if he had to teach every employee to read and do math? He can hire college-educated workers, and not have to pay for that education. He doesn't have to pay to build a road to his businesses. He doesn't have to pay to build a power plant to light his business. The banking system allows him to easily amass great wealth.

A progressive taxation system is good for everyone, including the rich guy.

GoU


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2012 12:18 am 
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Location: The land of perpetual Lent! (aka Cincinnati)
The full transition of ownership to the emplyees will take about five years.

http://www.bemidjipioneer.com/content/lueken’s-become-employee-owned-joe-lueken-will-take-lesser-role-provide-guidance

I would not expect anything less!

Let me explain... Personal real life perspective.

A few years ago my Mom passed away leaving me in her inheritance a Roth IRA containing stocks for both (OMFG) Wal-Mart and Kroger's along with stocks of several other leading Cincinnati institutions like Frische's Big Boy and a small Tennessee Oil Company operation in the Gulf.

But my situation was between Wallyworld and Kroger... so I did a little watching for a few hours a my favorite local Combination "Mall" where Kroger and wallyworld reside. ... my Favorite Kroger store by the way HERE where I do nearly all of my grocery shopping.

I parked in that joined parking lot and watched the businesses, observed the flow and saw several tractor-trailers sitting on the Wallyworld side, but on the Kroger side, one pulled in, was unloaded and pulled off.

The next day, I saw that one of the tractor-trailers had left the wallyworld side but the others had still remained, meanwhile, Kroger had only Beer trucks and Bread trucks delivering and leaving...

People flowed from the two stores, but the locals seemed to prefer the Kroger Store... Like I did.

3 days later, I sold the stock my mother gave me in passing of wal-mart, and moved her Kroger stock to be my own ownership.

My Shadow never needed to darken the doors of Wallyworld (wal-Mart) to tell me the story that it SUCKED and my Local Kroger store Rocked!

Yes... I own the door of the Kroger's I shop at regularly, and sold some poor sucker Wal-Mart's door I never darkened since the early 90's.

Happily I can say that my Kroger's door moves... and so does that stock...
It's hometown, and it's my Kroger's store. And I'm Damned Proud of It!!!

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2012 12:24 am 
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Oh, by the way... I paid 33% in selling wally-world's door in taxes.

So Much for a working stiff with divesting an IRA.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2012 1:09 am 
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The other thing I noted was the employee's that worked at the stores. It was an obvious give away (by watching the attitude) who enjoyed even collected carts hands down!

Mules bayed...
Clydesdale's galloped!
Kroger's Rocks!

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