San Diego County Looking to Tax Cars By Mileage

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Number6
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San Diego County Looking to Tax Cars By Mileage

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This story is getting big play in the San Diego area. SANDAG (San Diego Association of Governments) is looking at imposing a four cent tax on every mile driven to fund a $160 billion, 30-year long-term regional plan. The goal of the plan is to provide and expand free public transportation buses and rail services. One objective of the plan is to get people out of their cars and used more public transportation.

The argument in favor of this mileage tax is since cars are more fuel efficient gas tax revenues are down and electric cars do not pay gas taxes but use the roads for free. A think tank study says fuel efficiency has increased by 26% resulting in traveling an average of 75 miles and those 75 miles adds wear and tear to the roads. The fallacy in this logic is just because fuel efficiency save 75 miles it doesn't mean people are driving 75 miles more. It just means they don't have to fill-up their vehicles as often.

My problem with the four cent gas tax is how do you report, and to whom, your annual mileage? Also, do you have to pay for the mileage when you're driving in another state? My solution to the problem doesn't fall upon gas vehicles but up electric and hybrid veh9cles. Increase the registration fee on electric/hybrid vehicles and send that increase to the county where the vehicle is registered. IMO, any vehicle using public roads need to pay, either through gas taxes or vehicle registration fees, for their use. California doesn't have many toll roads like they have back East so the money to maintain roads and increase local public transportation has to come from somewhere.
The proposal is part of SANDAG's 2021 Regional Plan -- a 30-year, $163 billion dollar plan that takes aim at the future of transportation in the region. The plan includes no-cost public transit and a 200-mile, $43 billion regional rail network. More about the regional plan can be found here.

The agency says transportation tax revenue will go beyond basic road improvements to fund the next generation of transportation infrastructure. The plan highlights "5 Big Moves" that will reshape how the region gets around.

Revenue from the proposed four-cent-per-mile tax would go toward the projects, as would and two half-cent regional sales taxes scheduled for 2022 and 2028. The agency is still working to determine a fair rate for the per-mile tax and says there needs to be "adequate and available alternatives to the private automobile in place."

SANDAG says revenue from the recent gas tax is tapering off due to an increase in more fuel-efficient cars. The mileage tax is supposed to supplement, and eventually replace, that revenue.
NBC San Diego
Last edited by Number6 on Sat Oct 30, 2021 5:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Bludogdem
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Re: San Diego County Looking to Tax Cars By Mileage

Post by Bludogdem »

Number6 wrote: Fri Oct 29, 2021 1:54 pm This story is getting big play in the San Diego area. SANDAG (San Diego Association of Governments) is looking at imposing a four cent tax on every mile driven to fund a $160 billion, 30-year long-term regional plan. The goal of the plan is to provide and expand free public transportation buses and rail services. One objective of the plan is to get people out of their cars and used more public transportation.

The argument in favor of this mileage tax is since cars are more fuel efficient gas tax revenues are down and electric cars do not pay gas taxes but use the roads for free. A think tank study says fuel efficiency has increased by 26% resulting in traveling an average of 75 miles and those 75 miles adds wear and tear to the roads. The fallacy in this logic is just because fuel efficiency save 75 miles it doesn't mean people are driving 75 miles more. It just means they don't have to fill-up their vehicles as often.

My problem with the four cent gas tax is how do you report, and to whom, your annual mileage? Also, do you have to pay for the mileage when you're driving in another state? My solution to the problem doesn't fall upon gas vehicles but up electric and hybrid veh9cles. Increase the registration fee on electric/hybrid vehicles and send that increase to the county where the vehicle is registered. IMO, any vehicle using public roads need to pay, either through gas taxes or vehicle registration fees, for their use. California doesn't have many toll roads like they have back East so the money to maintain roads and increase local public transportation has to come from somewhere.
I’d go with the registration/licensing fee. Simplicity. That being said, it’s the government so expect the opposite.
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sam lefthand
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Re: San Diego County Looking to Tax Cars By Mileage

Post by sam lefthand »

Number6 wrote: Fri Oct 29, 2021 1:54 pm This story is getting big play in the San Diego area. SANDAG (San Diego Association of Governments) is looking at imposing a four cent tax on every mile driven to fund a $160 billion, 30-year long-term regional plan. The goal of the plan is to provide and expand free public transportation buses and rail services. One objective of the plan is to get people out of their cars and used more public transportation.

The argument in favor of this mileage tax is since cars are more fuel efficient gas tax revenues are down and electric cars do not pay gas taxes but use the roads for free. A think tank study says fuel efficiency has increased by 26% resulting in traveling an average of 75 miles and those 75 miles adds wear and tear to the roads. The fallacy in this logic is just because fuel efficiency save 75 miles it doesn't mean people are driving 75 miles more. It just means they don't have to fill-up their vehicles as often.

My problem with the four cent gas tax is how do you report, and to whom, your annual mileage? Also, do you have to pay for the mileage when you're driving in another state? My solution to the problem doesn't fall upon gas vehicles but up electric and hybrid veh9cles. Increase the registration fee on electric/hybrid vehicles and send that increase to the county where the vehicle is registered. IMO, any vehicle using public roads need to pay, either through gas taxes or vehicle registration fees, for their use. California doesn't have many toll roads like they have back East so the money to maintain roads and increase local public transportation has to come from somewhere.
That millage information is available from the annual smog test readouts done on modern cars. Modern being any car newer than about 1995. A county could insist that the information be reported when a smog test is done, and that could be used to bill a car owner for a once a year tax.

It could also be used to check odometer readings to see if they have been tampered with at the time of a used car sale.

:|
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Number6
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Re: San Diego County Looking to Tax Cars By Mileage

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sam lefthand wrote: Fri Oct 29, 2021 2:48 pm That millage information is available from the annual smog test readouts done on modern cars. Modern being any car newer than about 1995. A county could insist that the information be reported when a smog test is done, and that could be used to bill a car owner for a once a year tax.

It could also be used to check odometer readings to see if they have been tampered with at the time of a used car sale.

:|
Recording the odometer and sending that information to the California DMV is done when the car is smog tested. California requires a smog test every two years, when the car ownership changes, or when it is registered for the first time in the state. Cars that are eight year old or newer don’t require a smog test. Because smog testing is done every two years it wouldn’t be a practical method of collecting road usage tax.
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Re: San Diego County Looking to Tax Cars By Mileage

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If you get 30mpg a 4cpm tax is the equivalent of raising gas tax $1.20 a gallon.
This is just another way for Democrats to raise taxes in a manner that their low information voters won't realize what is happening.
Can you imagine the outrage of a gas tax increase of $1.20 a gallon
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sam lefthand
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Re: San Diego County Looking to Tax Cars By Mileage

Post by sam lefthand »

Number6 wrote: Fri Oct 29, 2021 3:41 pm Recording the odometer and sending that information to the California DMV is done when the car is smog tested. California requires a smog test every two years, when the car ownership changes, or when it is registered for the first time in the state. Cars that are eight year old or newer don’t require a smog test. Because smog testing is done every two years it wouldn’t be a practical method of collecting road usage tax.
I thought it was done every year where you are.

:|

It's only done when a car is transferred to a new owner who is not in a family in my county. I've only had to smog a car once in my life because of that exemption my county has because of our low population. That was in back 2014.

When I got my new used car smog tested to transfer the title it was at a friends shop and he showed me what that computer reported. The computer keeps track of everything, and the state ignore a lot of what is there. For instance if the air bags ever deploy in an accident there is a record of that.

:)
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Re: San Diego County Looking to Tax Cars By Mileage

Post by gounion »

Glennfs wrote: Fri Oct 29, 2021 4:01 pm If you get 30mpg a 4cpm tax is the equivalent of raising gas tax $1.20 a gallon.
This is just another way for Democrats to raise taxes in a manner that their low information voters won't realize what is happening.
Can you imagine the outrage of a gas tax increase of $1.20 a gallon
So, how would YOU change the tax system? You're good at always throwing rocks at everything Dems even discuss. It's harder to come up with what any alternatives.
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sam lefthand
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Re: San Diego County Looking to Tax Cars By Mileage

Post by sam lefthand »

Glennfs wrote: Fri Oct 29, 2021 4:01 pm If you get 30mpg a 4cpm tax is the equivalent of raising gas tax $1.20 a gallon.
This is just another way for Democrats to raise taxes in a manner that their low information voters won't realize what is happening.
Can you imagine the outrage of a gas tax increase of $1.20 a gallon
Glenn you're double adding where electric cars are concerned because they don't pay fuel taxes now. It is not an increase, it's road taxing them for the first time.

You might say "but there are a lot of gas powered cars," but very soon there will not be a lot of gas powered cars.

:)

So don't worry about what Californians might think. It's not your concern.

:D
Glennfs
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Re: San Diego County Looking to Tax Cars By Mileage

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gounion wrote: Fri Oct 29, 2021 4:12 pm So, how would YOU change the tax system? You're good at always throwing rocks at everything Dems even discuss. It's harder to come up with what any alternatives.
This isn't about changing the tax system it is about the democratic party duping the low information voters that support them.

If it was about changing the tax system it would be a tax on electric vehicles.

This is just a way for Democrats to raise the gas tax $1 20 or more depending on your gas mileage.
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gounion
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Re: San Diego County Looking to Tax Cars By Mileage

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Glennfs wrote: Fri Oct 29, 2021 4:17 pm This isn't about changing the tax system it is about the democratic party duping the low information voters that support them.

If it was about changing the tax system it would be a tax on electric vehicles.

This is just a way for Democrats to raise the gas tax $1 20 or more depending on your gas mileage.
That doesn't surprise me, because you don't WANT electric vehicles. You want to burn every last barrel of oil this old world can give.
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Number6
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Re: San Diego County Looking to Tax Cars By Mileage

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Glennfs wrote: Fri Oct 29, 2021 4:01 pm If you get 30mpg a 4cpm tax is the equivalent of raising gas tax $1.20 a gallon.
This is just another way for Democrats to raise taxes in a manner that their low information voters won't realize what is happening.
Can you imagine the outrage of a gas tax increase of $1.20 a gallon
You didn't read the link, did you because your opining on something you have no clue about.

As for your pitiful comments about Democrats wanting to raise taxes shows you don't know what SANDBAG is. It's an organization of of mayors and councilpersons from the cities in the county and the county supervisors to plan the long-term transit policies/plans for the county. It has both Democrats and republicans representing their cities as well as county supervisor districts.

I suggest you sit down, shut up, and do some reading before you continue making a fool of yourself.
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Re: San Diego County Looking to Tax Cars By Mileage

Post by JoeMemphis »

With technology today, you can probably figure a way, to track miles by state. Most newer vehicles have navigation. It’s certainly doable.

I would not tax gas burning vehicles but would tax all electric vehicles and maybe tax hybrids at a lower rate. Fuel taxes were supposed to maintain highways and bridges, as we burn less fuel per mile it makes sense that taxes raised per mile would be reduced with no decrease in wear and tear on the system. Makes sense that you would have to bridge that ever increasing gap in some manner.
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Libertas
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Re: San Diego County Looking to Tax Cars By Mileage

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Cons dont give a shit about the roads (how can they, they vote for assholes who do everything they can to deconstruct our infrastructure) what they care about is STICKING it to libs and environmentalists.

Are there a FEW cons who vote for taxes to fix stuff and for electric etc, yes, a few, small handful.
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Re: San Diego County Looking to Tax Cars By Mileage

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I'm generally in favor of consumption tax, but I think this might just end up punishing lower to middle-class citizens. Though it could be offset with more affordable public transportation.

If I take Toronto, for example, as it's the closest major city to me. Most who work in the city don't live in the city because it's expensive to do so. So they live out in the suburbs. Some live as far as an hour or more away from their job because that's where they can get moderately affordable housing.

Toronto has reasonably competent public transportation but if you don't live on a main line you're either driving to your job or driving to where you can get public transportation.

It seems like an idea whose bureaucracy might negate any significant gains. Do you drive in once a month, once a year to check the odometer? Do they blackbox your car? I know some insurance companies do that with the line that you can save on insurance if you're a safe driver. I've been suspicious of that particular concept. It won't lower your rates but could raise them.
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Re: San Diego County Looking to Tax Cars By Mileage

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I'm sorry, but I don't think this will fly. Big Government.
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Number6
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Re: San Diego County Looking to Tax Cars By Mileage

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JoeMemphis wrote: Fri Oct 29, 2021 6:05 pm With technology today, you can probably figure a way, to track miles by state. Most newer vehicles have navigation. It’s certainly doable.
The problem there would be the government would literally be able to monitor your movements and I don't think most people would like that. I believe that would spark a privacy issue. Also, no matter what program is put in a computer in a car someone will be able to hack it at some point resulting in people not paying their full amount.
I would not tax gas burning vehicles but would tax all electric vehicles and maybe tax hybrids at a lower rate. Fuel taxes were supposed to maintain highways and bridges, as we burn less fuel per mile it makes sense that taxes raised per mile would be reduced with no decrease in wear and tear on the system. Makes sense that you would have to bridge that ever increasing gap in some manner.
I think it would be disadvantageous to people who have to live farther away from work because that's what they can afford. One couple I knew lived 70 miles away and each drove a separate vehicle because they worked different hours. That 140 miles apiece or 280 combine meaning they would have to pay around $2,900 yearly in a mileage tax together. I think the best thing is to raise the vehicle registration fee on electric/hybrid vehicles so everyone contributes.
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Number6
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Re: San Diego County Looking to Tax Cars By Mileage

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marindem01 wrote: Fri Oct 29, 2021 8:38 pm I'm sorry, but I don't think this will fly. Big Government.
I don't think it will fly either because people aren't going to really learn about what's in the proposal and only know it's a "tax increase." Since it's a county-wide tax proposal it would have be approved by the voters and I don't think they'll go for it. As of now, I'm not in favor of it.
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Re: San Diego County Looking to Tax Cars By Mileage

Post by JoeMemphis »

Number6 wrote: Fri Oct 29, 2021 10:02 pm The problem there would be the government would literally be able to monitor your movements and I don't think most people would like that. I believe that would spark a privacy issue. Also, no matter what program is put in a computer in a car someone will be able to hack it at some point resulting in people not paying their full amount.


I think it would be disadvantageous to people who have to live farther away from work because that's what they can afford. One couple I knew lived 70 miles away and each drove a separate vehicle because they worked different hours. That 140 miles apiece or 280 combine meaning they would have to pay around $2,900 yearly in a mileage tax together. I think the best thing is to raise the vehicle registration fee on electric/hybrid vehicles so everyone contributes.
On top of the fact that you wear out the vehicle in 4 to 5 years. I used to drive 100 miles a day. I didn’t mind the drive. I did hate the mileage and the wear and tear of my vehicle.
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Re: San Diego County Looking to Tax Cars By Mileage

Post by marindem01 »

Glennfs wrote: Fri Oct 29, 2021 4:01 pm If you get 30mpg a 4cpm tax is the equivalent of raising gas tax $1.20 a gallon.
This is just another way for Democrats to raise taxes in a manner that their low information voters won't realize what is happening.
Can you imagine the outrage of a gas tax increase of $1.20 a gallon
Look before you leap Glenn, how do you know "Democrats" are doing anything. This is repressive tax and will not work.
Last edited by marindem01 on Sat Oct 30, 2021 5:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Number6
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Re: San Diego County Looking to Tax Cars By Mileage

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marindem01 wrote: Sat Oct 30, 2021 1:47 pm Look before you leap Glenn, how do you "Democrats" are doing anything. This is repressive tax and will not work.
glenn never read the link so he doesn't know what he's talking about.
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Re: San Diego County Looking to Tax Cars By Mileage

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JoeMemphis wrote: Fri Oct 29, 2021 10:33 pm On top of the fact that you wear out the vehicle in 4 to 5 years. I used to drive 100 miles a day. I didn’t mind the drive. I did hate the mileage and the wear and tear of my vehicle.
Working construction, i know guys that would travel 2 hour to the job and 2 hours back to home. Every day. Never understood it. No way i'd want to rack up a couple hundred thousand miles on a car in 2 years.

Me, 40 years and i've never driven more than 20 minutes to the job. Half that time i lived but 5 minutes from work. i absolutely hate being caught in traffic.
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Re: San Diego County Looking to Tax Cars By Mileage

Post by JoeMemphis »

bradman wrote: Sun Oct 31, 2021 9:43 am Working construction, i know guys that would travel 2 hour to the job and 2 hours back to home. Every day. Never understood it. No way i'd want to rack up a couple hundred thousand miles on a car in 2 years.

Me, 40 years and i've never driven more than 20 minutes to the job. Half that time i lived but 5 minutes from work. i absolutely hate being caught in traffic.
Satellite Radio revolutionized commuting. I can tolerate quite a bit if I can listen to classic rock.
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Re: San Diego County Looking to Tax Cars By Mileage

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JoeMemphis wrote: Fri Oct 29, 2021 10:33 pm On top of the fact that you wear out the vehicle in 4 to 5 years. I used to drive 100 miles a day. I didn’t mind the drive. I did hate the mileage and the wear and tear of my vehicle.
Who do you like to listen to?
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Number6
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Re: San Diego County Looking to Tax Cars By Mileage

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JoeMemphis wrote: Fri Oct 29, 2021 10:33 pm On top of the fact that you wear out the vehicle in 4 to 5 years. I used to drive 100 miles a day. I didn’t mind the drive. I did hate the mileage and the wear and tear of my vehicle.
I think part of the problem is most people consider themselves in the middle class and taking public transportation is something the middle class doesn't do. This is primarily for those not living in a city where it's more normal to ride the bus or subway. I believe most people wouldn't want to spend 45 minutes commuting on public transportation when they can drive the same distance in 30 minutes even though it costs more. I have a friend who works for the Navy and lives 20 miles away and he takes public transportation because the Navy pays for bus and rail passes. Driving to work would take him about 25 minutes but by public transportation it takes him 45 minutes.

I sure there are a lot of people like me who don't want to be dependent up public transportation because you're tied to the bus/rail schedule and they're rarely on-time. I'll take the bus to downtown San Diego when I'm going to be there for a couple of hours. It's more convenient and less costly than paying for parking. I could take the bus and rail to the malls in Mission Valley but it would take me about 30 - 40 minutes whereas I can make it there in 15 minutes.
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Re: San Diego County Looking to Tax Cars By Mileage

Post by JoeMemphis »

marindem01 wrote: Sun Oct 31, 2021 3:09 pm Who do you like to listen to?
It varies. I like classic rock, the bridge, the 70’s, soul town,the highway. The genres are mostly classic rock, country, r&b. For live music in Memphis I go to BB Kings on Beale. I have never heard a bad set in that club.

What about you?
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