The Critical Race Theory/so-called Cancel Culture Thread

[carmenjonze]

Human religiosity is a much bigger world than that of Protestant Christianity, even if it is the dominant modality of the U.S.

I just feel this discussion is often in a limited frame. Many of the world's religious people are illiterate and have no scripture. Shinto, for example, really has no scripture. It's all rooted in oral traditions.

As to whether mythology has any value, well, I think Star Wars and Marvel movies are mythology, and they have positive value. And I'm not just talking about them being entertaining.

There would not be Star Wars without Zoroastrianism and Buddhism. Lol it's basically almost all Buddhism. Luke Skywalker's school that he's building in the Book of Boba Fett -- that is a classic stupa/Buddhist shrine. https://www.britannica.com/topic/stupa

The Eternals took a nice detour through religion, as well.

Not to mention Bollywood. Bollywood has an entire genre called Mythologicals, cause Hinduism has a TON of super-interesting mythology.

Hindu Mythological Films - wikipedia

Films about Prahlada

Films based on the Mahabharata

Films about Raja Harishchandra

Films about Krishna

Films Based on the Ramayana

Good luck getting rid of all those films because they're depicting myths instead of facts.

To me, I am not interested at all in whether these are negative or beneficial developments. They are just developments. That's what fascinates me.

Many times I've gone into the deeper messages in the X-Men comics and films. There is a reason why I use Professor X as my avatar, and it's not just that he's a cool character. There is an ethos he represents. I happen to think it's deeply liberal.

Whether or not spirituality and religion are the same thing is a long and tortured debate I hate engaging. Personally, I find some value to spirituality. I guess it depends on what you consider it to be. Even Sam Harris praises meditation. I don't think you have to get it through or in organized religion, but that is how most people become familiar with it.

I also think ritual has some constructive and useful social functions, although again there are pathways to ritual outside of organized religion, too.

Ritual happens.

The Bible is not a scientific account of how the world came to be. Neither is any religious text. As to whether there is anything of value in some of its ethical teachings, that to me is an interesting question sometimes worthy of consideration.

I will say this: the "Old Testament" probably has ten times as many passages about the importance of taking care of the poor and the helpless as it does about rules about sex or marriage, but it's weird how the "religious right" are only interested in focusing on the things it talks about least.

Yeah, that's what the "sin of Sodom" actually is: inhospitality. Totally unrelated to homosexuality.

[ProfX]

There would not be Star Wars without Zoroastrianism and Buddhism. Lol it's basically almost all Buddhism. Luke Skywalker's school that he's building in the Book of Boba Fett -- that is a classic stupa/Buddhist shrine. https://www.britannica.com/topic/stupa

Yeah, in one of the interviews Bill Moyers did with George Lucas, he went into this. Yes, there is a lot of Western mythos in the films, of course you've got a young knight with a sword rescuing a princess from a dungeon in space from the evil masked overlord. But Lucas also drew a lot on Japanese mythology. The scene where Kenobi puts the blaster helmet over Luke's eyes. Hello, blind Zen sword master ...

This idea that the key to the Force is in maintaining the balance of Dark and Light (not have one overcoming the other) is very Taoist. Remember, Anakin was supposed to bring Balance back to the Force ... and in a way, he exactly did, fulfill that prophecy.

Lucas was also heavily influenced by Joseph Campbell, who I talk quite a bit about in my courses. Campbell explains the positive value of mythology, and I agree with some of his arguments for that. Moyers - a great liberal, BTW - did the "Power of Myth" interviews with Campbell, I often show segments in my courses.

As for the Eternals, there was a great series on the Interwebz for a while going into the influences on Jack Kirby, who came up with all that stuff in the 60s. Kirby was very big into the "ancient astronauts" idea that many of our mythological gods were really alien beings. There is a reason why many of the beings in the series are named after mythological figures, like Icarus/Ikaros. What I really like about that film is it is very much a Prometheus story - the Eternals have to go against the Celestials, their creators/gods, to save/protect humanity.

[carmenjonze]

Yeah, in one of the interviews Bill Moyers did with George Lucas, he went into this. Yes, there is a lot of Western mythos in the films, of course you've got a young knight with a sword rescuing a princess from a dungeon in space from the evil masked overlord. But Lucas also drew a lot on Japanese mythology. The scene where Kenobi puts the blaster helmet over Luke's eyes. Hello, blind Zen sword master ...

This idea that the key to the Force is in maintaining the balance of Dark and Light (not have one overcoming the other) is very Taoist. Remember, Anakin was supposed to bring Balance back to the Force ... and in a way, he exactly did, fulfill that prophecy.

Lucas was also heavily influenced by Joseph Campbell, who I talk quite a bit about in my courses. Campbell explains the positive value of mythology, and I agree with some of his arguments for that. Moyers - a great liberal, BTW - did the "Power of Myth" interviews with Campbell, I often show segments in my courses.

As for the Eternals, there was a great series on the Interwebz for a while going into the influences on Jack Kirby, who came up with all that stuff in the 60s. Kirby was very big into the "ancient astronauts" idea that many of our mythological gods were really alien beings. There is a reason why many of the beings in the series are named after mythological figures, like Icarus/Ikaros. What I really like about that film is it is very much a Prometheus story - the Eternals have to go against the Celestials, their creators/gods, to save/protect humanity.

We may have talked about this before, years ago, but Battlestar Galactica is basically LDS/Mormon. Haha my father would have been moritfied to know this, since in their kind of Christianity, the LDS is "satanic." (Well, everything that isn't that kind of Christianity is "satanic," so...) Anyway, in looking it up I see that it got an award from Ensign mag for incorporating LDS theology into the show. FWIW.

Glen A. Larson - wiki

The show incorporated many themes from LDS theology, such as sealing (marriage) for "time and eternity" and a "council of twelve". Larson, a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints in real life,[2][3] had been working on the concept since 1968 with former Star Trek producer Gene L. Coon mentoring him in its early development. Although, he originally wanted to name the series Adam's Ark, Larson changed the name to Galactica However, he was later convinced to include the word "star" in the title, capitalizing on the popularity of the recently released film Star Wars, eventually deciding on Battlestar Galactica.

Then there's Dune...

[carmenjonze]

The one point I make is I think it's a bad idea to alienate religious progressives, and there are many, however you feel about religion. They are often our strongest allies on religious freedom and secularism (like the Rev. Welton Gaddy, who used to be on Air America.) Personally, I also am quite fond of having ministers in government, some like Rev. Warnock are doing an amazing job. I don't have to agree with him on all theological points to think he's politically fighting all the right fights.

Yes, Mark Wingfield of Baptist Global News is a part of a new generation of Baptists who are bucking the stereotype of white Baptist country-ass hick conservatism. I did not expect this op-ed about CRT and public schools from Baptist Global News, but it also does not surprise me, either.

I've known a lot of people like him. There is a long strain of liberal white Baptists in the US. You mention C. Welton Gaddy, he was once president of the Alliance of Baptists, a progressive/liberal group. Like Baptist Global News, they are an organization that ditched the Southern Baptist Convention/SBC/slavery church.

Alliance of Baptists history

Baptists, including the white Baptists, are more complex than they are often made out to be. As for Black Baptists, well, SCLC was basically a Baptist organization. OTOH, Rev. Joseph Jackson of the NBC USA, Inc. ended up being just as horrid to MLK as any white moderate. People are complicated.

[ProfX]

We may have talked about this before, years ago, but Battlestar Galactica is basically LDS/Mormon. Haha my father would have been moritfied to know this, since in their kind of Christianity, the LDS is "satanic." (Well, everything that isn't that kind of Christianity is "satanic," so...) Anyway, in looking it up I see that it got an award from Ensign mag for incorporating LDS theology into the show. FWIW.

Glen A. Larson - wiki

Oh yes, the "Twelve Tribes of Humanity" were seeking Earth after departing the planet of Kobol, ruled over by the Lords of Kobol ... transliterate two letters and you get Kolob, which appears in the LDS Book of Abraham. There's a whole thing going on in Mormonism where righteous/sealed souls will be reincarnated on different stars and planets.

I was a huge fan of the remake. SOOOO much similar stuff going on with the reboot, but they kind of got rid of the explicit Mormonism of Larson. Most notably, there was all this speculation whether Kara Thrace/Starbuck was an angel, since she basically reappears after dying when her Viper disappears and leads them to Earth at the end of the show ... and then promptly vanishes. What's fascinating in the reboot show is that the humans are polytheists, basically worshipped the Greek gods, and the Cylons are monotheists. Kara and the "Final Five" are led to Earth by visions of Jupiter's Eye and a song they hear in their head (yes, it is "All Along the Watchtower" and when Kara enters the notes into BSG's computer, it literally is the coordinates to take them to Earth ... )

There is this whole dialogue between "Six" and "Baltar" at the end of the show which is fascinating. Are they also angels?

Head Six: Commercialism, decadence, technology run amok. Remind you of anything?
Head Baltar: Take your pick. Kobol, Earth - the real Earth, before this one, Caprica before the fall.
Head Six: All of this has happened before.
Head Baltar: But the question remains, “Does all of this have to happen again?”
Head Six: This time I bet no.
Head Baltar: You know, I’ve never known you to play the optimist. Why the sudden change of heart?
Head Six: Mathematics. Law of averages. Let a complex system repeat itself long enough and eventually something surprising might occur. That too is in God’s Plan.
Head Baltar (whispering/growling): You know it doesn’t like that name! In any case, it would have required mankind in all its flaws to have learned from its mistakes.
Head Six: Stranger things have happened.
Head Baltar: I think I’ll take that bet. What are the stakes?
Head Six: Hmph. (Head Six gives a look of annoyance.)
Head Baltar: Silly me! Silly, silly me!

The theme of the rebooted series is that this "Plan" is that machine/Cylon (the humanoid ones, anyway) and humans should hybridize, (most notably represented by the child "Thera" who they say is humanity's "Eve') bringing about peace between the two, and it's hinted that this is what gave birth to modern humanity.

Then there's Dune...

Kwisatz Haderach
https://dune.fandom.com/wiki/Kwisatz_Haderach

It's likely that the term was borrowed by Frank Herbert from the Kabbala. The compilation of Jewish mysticism the core of which is entitled HaZohar (The Book of Splendor) ascribed to Rabbi Shimon bar-Yohai, ascribed by Jewish people to have been written in the 1st century C.E. Modern scholars ascribe it to a sephardic Jewish author around the 13th century. The term itself is Hebrew, "K'fitzat ha-Derekh", (קְפִיצַת הַדֶּרֶךְ) literally, "The Leap of the Way," by means of which an initiate may travel some distance instantaneously, appearing to be in two or more places at once.

[gounion]

Fact is, we're stuck with religion, regardless of endless attempts to eradicate it. That's a historical fact.

The comparison to atheism was that some of the nastiest social bigots today are also atheists.

Atheism has a big race problem that no one’s talking about - WP, opinion. This is by the founder of Black Skeptics Group.

Being nonreligious or religious skeptics does not make them any better than the fundies when it comes to women, slavery, gays. Plus, most atheist arguments are theological arguments, anyway.

Also: religion is not limited to just American Christian whackjobs and the crap they pull under the banner of their precious beliefs.

I am not arguing for the benefit of religion, at all. I'm not sure if it has much benefit, but I do know about the impact of religion on our history, regardless of whether it's made up, or not. That's what I'm interested in. I find theological arguments very tiring.

For at least 100 years in this country, race science and eugenics also called itself fact, unlike religion, in the highest heights of the world's best schools. Dunno about you, but I am still dealing with the impacts of legislation and social norms that came of the myths created by science calling itself proven fact. They were a bunch of liars with an agenda. Only difference between them and the fundies and conservative Evangelicals is their chosen holy books.

Lack of belief in God isn't a political stance. There's people from all viewpoints with that simple lack of belief in a diety.

And yes, in the infancy of science, they got a lot wrong. Alchemy, for instance. Prior to the twentieth century, many scientists believed in the existence of the aether. And yes, corruption of Darwin's findings led to eugenics and the belief that the black race was less-evolved than the white race. Many religious people still refuse to believe evolution. And hell, now they're reverting back to flat-earthers.

But science has gotten better and better at providing reality and facts as it's evolved itself from the Enlightenment forward.

And I know the right wants to pretend that science is just a counter-weight to religion, and if you "believe" in science, it's just another religion.

Of course, it's not. It's for those who wish to inhabit a fact-based world, not a world that ignores the germ theory. Not a world where you pray to be healed by a God.

I love this quote from Robert A. Heinlein:

The most preposterous notion that H. Sapiens has ever dreamed up is that the Lord God of Creation, Shaper and Ruler of all the Universes, wants the saccharine adoration of His creatures, can be swayed by their prayers, and becomes petulant if He does not receive this flattery. Yet this absurd fantasy, without a shred of evidence to bolster it, pays all the expenses of the oldest, largest, and least productive industry in all of history.

Seems to me to be a rotten way to run a universe.

Now, to the other point that's been made - yes, literature has a lot to teach us about life. But we understand that it's all fiction. Joseph Campbell's hero's journey is a great mythos for human beings. I formed my life views, ethics and morals from books and movies and TV shows that affected me.

I think that's a far better way to learn than threatening and frightening children that if they don't behave like God tells them to, they'll burn in hell forever.

Oh, yeah, God is Love, right?

It also gives me a good laugh when we learn that God needs MONEY! I like the joke that you can just throw all your money into the air, and what God wants, he keeps!

[carmenjonze]

Lack of belief in God isn't a political stance. There's people from all viewpoints with that simple lack of belief in a diety.

And yes, in the infancy of science, they got a lot wrong. Alchemy, for instance. Prior to the twentieth century, many scientists believed in the existence of the aether. And yes, corruption of Darwin's findings led to eugenics and the belief that the black race was less-evolved than the white race. Many religious people still refuse to believe evolution. And hell, now they're reverting back to flat-earthers.

But science has gotten better and better at providing reality and facts as it's evolved itself from the Enlightenment forward.

And I know the right wants to pretend that science is just a counter-weight to religion, and if you "believe" in science, it's just another religion.

Of course, it's not. It's for those who wish to inhabit a fact-based world, not a world that ignores the germ theory. Not a world where you pray to be healed by a God.

I love this quote from Robert A. Heinlein:

The most preposterous notion that H. Sapiens has ever dreamed up is that the Lord God of Creation, Shaper and Ruler of all the Universes, wants the saccharine adoration of His creatures, can be swayed by their prayers, and becomes petulant if He does not receive this flattery. Yet this absurd fantasy, without a shred of evidence to bolster it, pays all the expenses of the oldest, largest, and least productive industry in all of history.

Seems to me to be a rotten way to run a universe.

Now, to the other point that's been made - yes, literature has a lot to teach us about life. But we understand that it's all fiction. Joseph Campbell's hero's journey is a great mythos for human beings. I formed my life views, ethics and morals from books and movies and TV shows that affected me.

I think that's a far better way to learn than threatening and frightening children that if they don't behave like God tells them to, they'll burn in hell forever.

Oh, yeah, God is Love, right?

It also gives me a good laugh when we learn that God needs MONEY! I like the joke that you can just throw all your money into the air, and what God wants, he keeps!

So for me, the problems with atheism start with the narrow definition of “religion” as beliefs and deities. That’s not what religion is, and it’s also a very western, Christian-centric view of what religion is. Atheism’s problem is with Christian theologies. That’s not religion either, that’s one element of what “religion” is.

Much of mainline Protestantism and Universalist-Unitarianism doesn’t even accept the theologies that atheism takes issue with. A lot of those denominations either dumped Biblical literalism decades ago, or never accepted it in the first place, believing the Bible to be metaphorical or interesting stories.

So this is why I say that selective picking of what the Bible says about this or that, e.g., women or gays, falls flat. To me, it’s another type of evangelistic prooftexting. Atheists do not do this with the Sutras or the Qur’an or the Hebrew Bible or the Zend Avesta, and tbh, I’m glad.

As ProfX has pointed out, there are plenty of traditions that are not book-based at all, like Yoruba/Ifa/Orisha/Vodun or the hundreds of Native traditions in our own hemisphere. That's not even necessarily due to illiteracy, it's just that they did not develop based on holy texts. I’m glad that atheism basically ignores or at least spares them.

Thankfully, I never see atheists trying to convince Hindus, Muslims, Zoroastrians, Buddhists, religious Jews, Sikhs, or other world religions about how stupid or misguided their traditions are, at least not with the fervor reserved for Christianity. I’m not even saying atheists should stop doing so regarding Christianity; personally, I actually agree with much of atheism’s criticisms. But for me, it’s too focused on Christian theologies, and conflating Christian theology with religion.

The most preposterous notion that H. Sapiens has ever dreamed up is that the Lord God of Creation, Shaper and Ruler of all the Universes, wants the saccharine adoration of His creatures, can be swayed by their prayers, and becomes petulant if He does not receive this flattery. Yet this absurd fantasy, without a shred of evidence to bolster it, pays all the expenses of the oldest, largest, and least productive industry in all of history.

Well…QED, what can I say. I get his point, but TBH I have a hard time seeing where this belief is any more preposterous than a guy replacing the severed head of his second wife’s son with the head of an elephant, and that guy becoming the deity of gates and doors. Or a blue guy running around playing the flute with an entourage of dancing girls trailing him everywhere he goes.

Folks with these beliefs also happen to be among the best technologists, scientists, and doctors in the world.

For me, it’s when people with these beliefs turn conservative and fascist on the basis of religion, like what’s happening in parts of India right now.

[ProfX]

The most preposterous notion that H. Sapiens has ever dreamed up is that the Lord God of Creation, Shaper and Ruler of all the Universes, wants the saccharine adoration of His creatures, can be swayed by their prayers, and becomes petulant if He does not receive this flattery. Yet this absurd fantasy, without a shred of evidence to bolster it, pays all the expenses of the oldest, largest, and least productive industry in all of history.

That's theism. Even without talking about non-Western traditions, Deism rejects such a notion. A lot of our Founding Fathers seemed to be Deists.

And again, there are a lot of religions without worship of deities. This is a Western ethnocentric hangup. Because of that hangup, some claim Taoism is not a religion, but I would disagree.

And then you run into Shinto. Are the kami deities or spirits? The best answer is yes - they kinda straddle both categories, depending on which ones we're talking about. I would say the same thing is true of the Haitian lwa.

The Western categories really start breaking down when you look at Eastern traditions.

Seems to me to be a rotten way to run a universe.

Dunno, what I've always found quite ridiculous is that something creating and running a universe would care more about where you put your schlong than preventing galaxies from colliding or that he would pay special attention just to some beings on one planet over all the others. Or that those beings would really be silly enough to think he put their planet at the center of the universe.

The logical problems of theism started becoming apparent to me even before I went to university.

I think that's a far better way to learn than threatening and frightening children that if they don't behave like God tells them to, they'll burn in hell forever.

Again - as Carmen said - that particular viewpoint isn't universally held even among the Abrahamics, and there is an intramural argument over it even within the Christian denominations.

That it is the viewpoint often argued by most of the thumpers on Sunday TV doesn't mean it's universally believed.

What the Bible actually says about "Hell" is another one of those interesting conundrums, too. Because the answer is very little.

Nothing at all in the so-called "OT" because, well, news flash: Biblical Jews didn't believe in "Hell" and us modern ones still don't. (This is where talking about so-called "Judeo-Christianity" starts to break down. BTW, Jews also don't believe in original sin, or that humans are sinful by nature.)

As for the New Testament, well, Jesus talks about something called Gehenna or the Valley of Hinnom, but that was a physical earthly place outside Jerusalem where they burned and cremated corpses.

The word itself seems to come from Norse mythology - Hel(lya) ruled in Hel(l)(heim), the Norse underworld, she's played by Cate Blanchett in the Thor movies.

So, it's weird but true, every time Sunday thumpers slap their Bibles and talk about Hell, they seem to be putting the fear of Cate Blanchett into their congregations.

We could also mention where the word "Easter" actually comes from.

Just as a logical matter, I've always found it, too, quite preposterous that a being of love and mercy sends you to eternal suffering because you masturbated or ate too much cheesecake (gluttony was one of the seven deadly sins). Medieval theologians had their own contortions over this, which is why they came up with Purgatory, the cosmic waiting room where you work off the minor sins. Then came this idea your prayers and so on might help people move up and out of Purgatory into Heaven. This led to indulgences, and to Martin Luther, and the Reformation ... even European religious history is so fascinating.

[ProfX]

Well…QED, what can I say. I get his point, but TBH I have a hard time seeing where this belief is any more preposterous than a guy replacing the severed head of his second wife’s son with the head of an elephant, and that guy becoming the deity of gates and doors. Or a blue guy running around playing the flute with an entourage of dancing girls trailing him everywhere he goes.

Folks with these beliefs also happen to be among the best technologists, scientists, and doctors in the world.

For me, it’s when people with these beliefs turn conservative and fascist on the basis of religion, like what’s happening in parts of India right now.

Again, all I would say is the situation is similar to what we're facing. Many Hindus don't believe that India needs to make Hinduism its state religion and show active hostility to non-Hindu minority faiths (which could include Buddhism, Christianity, Jainism, Sikhism, and Zoroastrianism, as well as Muslims.)

A Hindu doesn't have to be a Hindu nationalist, but the BJP has politicized faith. Much like the difference between Islam, and IslamISM as represented by al-Qaeda, ISIS, etc.

The problem I have with fundamentalism is it's not clear that all these stories were meant to be taken literally. They may have even been written as allegories. Did Aesop really believe foxes could talk? You don't have to accept that to get the point of the story. I wonder if it's the same thing with the talking snake in Genesis.

Fundamentalists don't seem to realize that they may be failing their own idea of original intent (sort of reminds me of so-called Constitutional originalists) ... that in taking stories in Genesis literally, they may NOT be understanding them the way the authors originally intended them to be understood.

Kabbalists actually argue that the literal textual interpretation of the Torah is the lowest, most base form of understanding it.

[gounion]

So for me, the problems with atheism start with the narrow definition of “religion” as beliefs and deities. That’s not what religion is, and it’s also a very western, Christian-centric view of what religion is. Atheism’s problem is with Christian theologies. That’s not religion either, that’s one element of what “religion” is.

Much of mainline Protestantism and Universalist-Unitarianism doesn’t even accept the theologies that atheism takes issue with. A lot of those denominations either dumped Biblical literalism decades ago, or never accepted it in the first place, believing the Bible to be metaphorical or interesting stories.

So this is why I say that selective picking of what the Bible says about this or that, e.g., women or gays, falls flat. To me, it’s another type of evangelistic prooftexting. Atheists do not do this with the Sutras or the Qur’an or the Hebrew Bible or the Zend Avesta, and tbh, I’m glad.

As ProfX has pointed out, there are plenty of traditions that are not book-based at all, like Yoruba/Ifa/Orisha/Vodun or the hundreds of Native traditions in our own hemisphere. That's not even necessarily due to illiteracy, it's just that they did not develop based on holy texts. I’m glad that atheism basically ignores or at least spares them.

Thankfully, I never see atheists trying to convince Hindus, Muslims, Zoroastrians, Buddhists, religious Jews, Sikhs, or other world religions about how stupid or misguided their traditions are, at least not with the fervor reserved for Christianity. I’m not even saying atheists should stop doing so regarding Christianity; personally, I actually agree with much of atheism’s criticisms. But for me, it’s too focused on Christian theologies, and conflating Christian theology with religion.



Well…QED, what can I say. I get his point, but TBH I have a hard time seeing where this belief is any more preposterous than a guy replacing the severed head of his second wife’s son with the head of an elephant, and that guy becoming the deity of gates and doors. Or a blue guy running around playing the flute with an entourage of dancing girls trailing him everywhere he goes.

Folks with these beliefs also happen to be among the best technologists, scientists, and doctors in the world.

For me, it’s when people with these beliefs turn conservative and fascist on the basis of religion, like what’s happening in parts of India right now.

Again, ALL atheism is, is a lack of belief in a God - ANY God. Period. Atheism doesn't "take issue" with anything. Atheism is the most disorganized group ever. There is no atheist "church". There is no dogma. IT'S NOT A RELIGION! There's a few atheist conventions around, which are very small. There might be some meetings in a coffee shop. But that's it.

As far as people focusing on the Abrahamic religions, well, Christianity and the Muslim faith predominate on this world, and they are the ones that work the most diligently to force others to bend to their will. Look, you can believe in the Giant Spaghetti Monster, for all I care, as long as you keep it to yourself and don't force your belief and faith on others.

That's what's happening in our nation. Heck, I've been told that while there's a freedom OF religion, there's no freedom FROM religion in this nation. That's why some atheists have become militant, because it's our freedoms to not believe and to be left alone that's being refused.

Me, I'm tired of getting this bullshit forced upon me, then I'm being told I need to respect those people and that faith they are shoving down my throat.

Nope. Not me.

[ProfX]

All I would say is,

Not all Christians think the Bible should be taken literally. I would argue the fundamentalists are in the minority. They may be the loudest, but as always that doesn't mean they are the most numerous.

Not all of them want theocracy. There are many who realize the best protection for religion is to keep government out of manipulating and politicizing their churches. This is part of what Jefferson wrote about in his Letter to the Danbury Baptists.

Many do not believe in forcing their religious views on others. Some even reject missionary activity. These are not universals, even among the denominations.

At the end of the day, what you believe is indeed your business if you're not forcing it on me or trying to get the government to authorize and enforce it.

That doesn't mean I won't criticize the empirical basis of your belief. You are entitled to think you can't get COVID-19 as long as you eat a vegan diet and get plenty of Vitamin D. That doesn't mean I won't tell you, empirically, you are wrong.

And when it comes to wrong beliefs, in general, I really only focus on the ones that can have harmful consequences. If you think you can sharpen your knives by leaving them inside a pyramid for a week, ... you're wrong, but you're not hurting anybody. There are other belief systems that are more important to challenge.

[gounion]

All I would say is,

Not all Christians think the Bible should be taken literally. I would argue the fundamentalists are in the minority. They may be the loudest, but as always that doesn't mean they are the most numerous.

Not all of them want theocracy. There are many who realize the best protection for religion is to keep government out of manipulating and politicizing their churches. This is part of what Jefferson wrote about in his Letter to the Danbury Baptists.

Many do not believe in forcing their religious views on others. Some even reject missionary activity. These are not universals, even among the denominations.

At the end of the day, what you believe is indeed your business if you're not forcing it on me or trying to get the government to authorize and enforce it.

That doesn't mean I won't criticize the empirical basis of your belief. You are entitled to think you can't get COVID-19 as long as you eat a vegan diet and get plenty of Vitamin D. That doesn't mean I won't tell you, empirically, you are wrong.

And when it comes to wrong beliefs, in general, I really only focus on the ones that can have harmful consequences. If you think you can sharpen your knives by leaving them inside a pyramid for a week, ... you're wrong, but you're not hurting anybody. There are other belief systems that are more important to challenge.

Well, it's a loud large minority that shows up at the polls. They are the ones with the political power. They are the ones that are making the laws. I can tell you that here in Tennessee, they are no minority.

They are the ones doing damage. I WISH that the religious among us who aren't down with the Evangelical control of our nation would stand up and speak out against them on the public square, but I don't see it.

[carmenjonze]

Again, ALL atheism is, is a lack of belief in a God - ANY God. Period. Atheism doesn't "take issue" with anything. Atheism is the most disorganized group ever. There is no atheist "church". There is no dogma. IT'S NOT A RELIGION! There's a few atheist conventions around, which are very small. There might be some meetings in a coffee shop. But that's it.

As far as people focusing on the Abrahamic religions, well, Christianity and the Muslim faith predominate on this world, and they are the ones that work the most diligently to force others to bend to their will. Look, you can believe in the Giant Spaghetti Monster, for all I care, as long as you keep it to yourself and don't force your belief and faith on others.

That's what's happening in our nation. Heck, I've been told that while there's a freedom OF religion, there's no freedom FROM religion in this nation. That's why some atheists have become militant, because it's our freedoms to not believe and to be left alone that's being refused.

Me, I'm tired of getting this bullshit forced upon me, then I'm being told I need to respect those people and that faith they are shoving down my throat.

Nope. Not me.

I do not understand atheism to be a religion. Not saying it is, only saying that their definition of “religion” is extremely narrow to the point of being inaccurate.

IDK if you follow the Indian press but I have been since around 2000 a little before the rise of Modi, right during the development of current Hindutva. Far right religious Hindutva is every bit as destructive as white conservative Evangelicalism is here, and even more violent. But then, they’re cons. Most Hindus are not Hindutvites, and the Bollywood Mythologicals have nothing to do with Hindutva, either. Like here, there are any number of anti-Hindutva organizations and activists. Maybe Hindutva a free pass from atheism, maybe they don’t, maybe I’m not looking in the right places, not sure. But I don’t see the same rage against this movement.

[carmenjonze]

Well, it's a loud large minority that shows up at the polls.

It is. Loud, obnoxious, entitled, supremacist. And indeed, a loud, obnoxious, entitled minority facing their numerical demise.

They are the ones with the political power. They are the ones that are making the laws. I can tell you that here in Tennessee, they are no minority.

They are the ones doing damage. I WISH that the religious among us who aren't down with the Evangelical control of our nation would stand up and speak out against them on the public square, but I don't see it.

I do see it, often. Sometimes, it even makes the news. Liberal Christianity, including liberal Catholicism, liberal Baptists, and others that people might not think of, have a strong history of it.

That’s why I have that thread called Amen Corner, and also why I posted that op-ed from Baptist Global News in this thread. Up until recently, Americans for Separation of Church and State was headed by Rev. Barry Lynn of the United Church of Christ, for almost 30 years. The current CEO, Rachel Laser, came from the Religious Action Center of Reform Judaism.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barry_W._Lynn

So many other examples.

[carmenjonze]

All I would say is,

Not all Christians think the Bible should be taken literally. I would argue the fundamentalists are in the minority. They may be the loudest, but as always that doesn't mean they are the most numerous.

Not all of them want theocracy.

The liberal mainline denominations do not want or believe in theocracy or Biblical literalism. For the most part, that’s where the Protestant numbers are, and they overall do not vote Republican. They’re already part of the Dem constituency.

If anything, they were the first to sound the alarm about current conservative Evangelicalism because it was their congregations that were the first to lose members to them, starting after WWII. That was after having dealt with Scopes and Fundamentalism, starting at the turn of last century.

[ProfX]

Back to topic:

After a Jewish lawmaker’s impassioned speech, Wyoming’s conservative legislature rejects critical race theory ban
https://www.jta.org/2022/02/18/politics ... ace-theory

(JTA) — It seemed a slam dunk: The popular conservative cause of banning “critical race theory” in schools, being taken up for a vote in one of the country’s most lopsidedly conservative legislatures.

Then a Democrat, one of just seven in the 60-member Wyoming legislature, stood up Thursday and said he could not support the bill because he was Jewish.

“In this bill, page 9, line 19 states, ‘The teaching of history must be neutral, without judgment,'” state Rep. Andy Schwartz said during debate. “Now, how can that be possible? If I were a Native American, I doubt I could accept the neutral, judgment-free approach about the relocation, the decimation of the Indigenous population. If I were a Black American, I doubt I could accept a neutral, judgment-free approach on the enslavement of millions of Americans.

“But I’m Jewish, and I cannot accept a neutral judgment-free approach on the murder of 6 million Jews in World War Two.”

Schwartz, whose Teton County district includes the city of Jackson, said that, to understand the depth of depraved actions, one must be discomfited by them.

“Going to page 8, lines 19 and 20, it says ‘no one should feel discomfort or distress,'” he said. “But in learning about the Holocaust, I have suffered a lifetime of discomfort and distress, and it’s essential that as students learn about this dark time in our history, they to feel discomfort in distress.”

[snip][end]

There were very few moments I remember when my father broke down in abject tears over something. He was a very stoic man.

But I saw it happen when we visited Yad Vashem. I can't forget that moment.

You are a mensch, Msr. Schwartz, and of course, spot on.

[Number6]

Again, ALL atheism is, is a lack of belief in a God - ANY God. Period. Atheism doesn't "take issue" with anything. Atheism is the most disorganized group ever. There is no atheist "church". There is no dogma. IT'S NOT A RELIGION! There's a few atheist conventions around, which are very small. There might be some meetings in a coffee shop. But that's it.

As an atheist, I was once asked since the Mormons, Jehovah Witnesses, and other religious groups/sects go door-to-door handing out pamphlets what do atheists hand out? My answer was "Nothing, we've go nothing." This evoked a laugh but the person asking the question saw that rarely do atheists try to push their religious beliefs on other unlike other, mainly Christian, groups do.

As far as people focusing on the Abrahamic religions, well, Christianity and the Muslim faith predominate on this world, and they are the ones that work the most diligently to force others to bend to their will. Look, you can believe in the Giant Spaghetti Monster, for all I care, as long as you keep it to yourself and don't force your belief and faith on others.

Christianity, Judaism, and Islam are the predominate religions of the Americas, Europe, and the Middle East and within each there are sects that try to force others to "bend to their will." I think this is a normal characteristic of human groups.

That's what's happening in our nation. Heck, I've been told that while there's a freedom OF religion, there's no freedom FROM religion in this nation. That's why some atheists have become militant, because it's our freedoms to not believe and to be left alone that's being refused.

Me, I'm tired of getting this bullshit forced upon me, then I'm being told I need to respect those people and that faith they are shoving down my throat.

Nope. Not me.

I'll respect another person's religious beliefs to the point they they're not trying to force it down my throat or enacting laws based solely on their religious beliefs. If they try that then I reserve the right to tear into their beliefs, question their beliefs, and to expose them for the hypocrites that they are.

[carmenjonze]

I'll respect another person's religious beliefs to the point they they're not trying to force it down my throat or enacting laws based solely on their religious beliefs. If they try that then I reserve the right to tear into their beliefs, question their beliefs, and to expose them for the hypocrites that they are.

Yes everyone should, and everyone must. This country's religion-mongering white Evangelicals and rightwing Catholics are dangerous and cause a lot of personal and institutional damage...and that's their intention.

[ProfX]

Christianity, Judaism, and Islam are the predominate religions of the Americas, Europe, and the Middle East and within each there are sects that try to force others to "bend to their will." I think this is a normal characteristic of human groups.

BTW, Jews do not engage in proselytization. BTW, this was not necessarily true in the past, but it seems to have kind of become a problem, particularly in the later Roman Empire (where it became illegal), so they stopped doing it.

Our numbers are small, but even the Orthodox will only convert Jews who come to them and request it, and the process for conversion is actually not easy.

The only thing some Jews do, and I personally have been the target of it, some Chabad Jews ride around in so-called "Mitzvah Tanks" that try and convince "backsliding" or secular Jews like me to wrap tefillin and pray with them. However, the only people they bother are other Jews.

Yeah, I find them annoying, and tell them to leave me alone. I usually have the same retort. "If he created the universe, doesn't he have better stuff to worry about then if I wrapped a phylactery around my arm and head today?"

[Number6]

BTW, Jews do not engage in proselytization. BTW, this was not necessarily true in the past, but it seems to have kind of become a problem, particularly in the later Roman Empire (where it became illegal), so they stopped doing it.

Our numbers are small, but even the Orthodox will only convert Jews who come to them and request it, and the process for conversion is actually not easy.

The only thing some Jews do, and I personally have been the target of it, some Chabad Jews ride around in so-called "Mitzvah Tanks" that try and convince "backsliding" or secular Jews like me to wrap tefillin and pray with them. However, the only people they bother are other Jews.

Yeah, I find them annoying, and tell them to leave me alone. I usually have the same retort. "If he created the universe, doesn't he have better stuff to worry about then if I wrapped a phylactery around my arm and head today?"

My parents came from Wyoming and my father was Protestant and my mom a Mormon but neither were religious. My brother and sisters went to the on-base bible study class as young kids mainly because my dad was a Navy Captain and I think it had more to do image than substance. I never did well in bible study class because it didn't interest me but it was something to do on Sunday mornings and there weren't any cartoons on TV in the Memphis area back around 1960. After my parents retired here, a local Moron Temple sent my mom a letter stating she had to appear before them excommunication for refusing to attend their services. This upset my mom so my dad wrote a letter to the Mormon Temple stating they had friends in that Temple and if the Temple excommunicated her his friends would let him know and he'll contact a lawyer, sue them, and take their property. That was the last they ever heard about excommunication or from the Temple.

I try to be polite to people when they bring religion up but there are limits. The worst is when someone asks me if "I've found Jesus" and my smart-ass mouth says "I didn't know he was lost." Of course, I recognize it as an opening for them to push their religious beliefs no matter if I answer Yes or No. If I answer Yes then they'll try to get me to attend their church or group-study. If I answer No then it opens the door for them to tell me the wonders about God and their religion. So what I do is either to be a smart-ass, politely tell the I'm not interested, or be rude and tell them to F**K-Off.

[carmenjonze]

Cancel culture.

‘Paper terrorism’: Parents against mask mandates bombard school districts with sham legal claims - NBC News

A group called Bonds for the Win is organizing parents to file claims against school districts’ insurance policies, taking a page from the sovereign citizen playbook.

The parents’ strategy is simple: Try to use obscure and often inapplicable legal claims to force a school district to make a policy change. And while the claims have no legal standing, they have been effective at spreading confusion and wasting school districts’ resources, even though the paperwork doesn’t require a formal legal response.

The parents and activists have organized through a new group called Bonds for the Win, which is named for a financial instrument at the heart of the pseudo-legal effort. The group’s members have spent the past two months bombarding school administrators with meritless claims over Covid policies and diversity initiatives. These claims allege that districts have broken the law and therefore owe parents money through what are called surety bonds, which government agencies often carry as liability insurance.

Bonds for the Win’s claims are not legitimate, according to education officials, insurance companies and the FBI. But even though the group has won no legal battles, it has already celebrated some successes in overwhelming districts with paperwork, intimidating local officials and disrupting school board meetings.

“There is a lot of misunderstanding and misinterpretation of the purpose of a local school governing board,” said Julie Cieniawski, president of the Scottsdale Unified Governing Board in Arizona, which was one of Bonds for the Win’s first targets. “I do believe it has kind of become a central meeting point for people to share their grievances and not specifically about our district. It’s almost like living in a reality TV show when you’re experiencing it.”

In at least 14 states, Bonds for the Win activists attempted to serve sham paperwork to school districts, in several cases causing commotions that required police intervention. And the number of people joining their cause is quickly growing as misinformation about the strategy’s effectiveness circulates.

On the chat app Telegram, where the activists organize, Bonds for the Win’s main channel grew from 700 subscribers to nearly 20,000 in the past month. Its members focus on schools, but they have also served paperwork to a handful of county commissioners and discussed plans to go after other local officials, judges and sheriffs with similar claims.

[ProfX]

Harassing school districts and trying to shut them down by bombarding them with pointless, useless paperwork.

Seems to me like an "offline" version of a denial-of-service attack.

[gounion]

John Oliver has a great fact check about what CRT really is and what this bullshit from the right is about.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EICp1vGlh_U

[bradman]

John Oliver has a great fact check about what CRT really is and what this bullshit from the right is about.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EICp1vGlh_U

Where are you from? We don't know where we are from. Well guess. You guess bitch.

It must be my dark humor. Only Oliver can make me bust a gut over such a serious issue. Seth comes in a distant second with, A Closer Look. But he only gets chuckes. i think what i like the most is how oliver starts out with a question, goes on to explain it in better detail than the rest, and in the end is back at the question for the grand finale. A rational solution. He's included in my Youtube algorithm loops.

[carmenjonze]

John Oliver has a great fact check about what CRT really is and what this bullshit from the right is about.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EICp1vGlh_U

Haha John Oliver has evidently been reading my posts for the past year.