Saw this at DU about how we know he didn't declassify,

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Libertas
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Saw this at DU about how we know he didn't declassify,

Post by Libertas »

How we know TFG didn't declassify the nuclear information

The process to declassify nuclear information is unique. For it to be declassified, it has to go through a tremendously arduous process.

The process is spelled out by the Atomic Energy Act of 1954 (42 U.S. Code Subchapter X)

1) The President would deliver the request in writing to the Department of Energy.
2) The Department of Energy would give the request to the Atomic Energy Commission.
3) The Atomic Energy Commission would form a joint panel with the Department of Defense (Interagency Security Classification Appeals Panel or ISCAP).
4) That panel would make a recommendation one way or another. To recommend to declassify, they would specifically have to overrule the sections of law preventing them from doing so.*
5) If both the AEC and the DOD agree, the information would be declassified and be given to the President.
6) If only one authorized declassifying the information, the President would have the deciding vote.
7) If neither authorized declassifying the information, the request would be denied.
8) ALL the previous steps would be handled as Secret or Top Secret information, leaving a program name, a custody chain for everything contained within, and would require the meetings to be held in a sensitive compartmented information facility (SCIF) room.
8) If they chose to declassify nuclear information, it would be HUGE FUCKING NEWS as every country scrambled for a copy.

* rules 25X2, 25X4, and 25X5 specifically prohibit any declassification of that information (information is prohibited from being declassified if it would:
- 25X2 - reveal information that would assist in the development, production, or use of weapons of mass destruction;
- 25X4 – reveal information that would impair the application of state-of-the-art technology within a US weapon system; and
- 25X5 – reveal formally named or numbered U.S. military war plans that remain in effect, or reveal operational or tactical elements of prior plans that are contained in such active plans)

The lack of massive headlines around the world announcing that America has made plans for nuclear weapons available to anyone and everyone is proof enough that the information was not declassified.

We know it doesn't matter, still a crime, but I wonder what my friends who are willing to speak out against the fascist GOP think of this, if you are not willing to do that i dont care what you think.
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Re: Saw this at DU about how we know he didn't declassify,

Post by ProfX »

There ain't no such thing as "blanket declassification". Even if it's NOT nuclear stuff, an active POTUS can't just wave his magic dick over a box of documents and declare them declassified. Doesn't work that way. There's a process you go through for any classified material. The POTUS has the power to do it but there is a bureaucratic procedure. As for nuclear declassification, as you just showed, it requires lots of review and a massive paper trail.

Also, you can't just do it retroactively after you leave office.

All in all, it's just more BS. BTW, classified documents that are now declassified are normally marked/stamped as such. I bet the ones the FBI seized are not.
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Re: Saw this at DU about how we know he didn't declassify,

Post by ZoWie »

The president has the power to declassify, but like everything else in this country, the law comes first. He initiates the procedure, then as noted there are a lot of legal t's to be crossed and i's to be dotted. Especially with documents marked as compartmentalized top secret, it's no simple matter. The need to know gets into it somewhere, but there are others on this board closer to the process who would understand it much better than I do.

In a government of laws, the president does not get everything he wants just because he's president. Watergate settled that one, even if it wasn't already settled law even by that time. He can't just walk up to some Chinese defense planners and tell them how to get their hypersonic re-entry vehicle to work better, and not face consequences.
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Re: Saw this at DU about how we know he didn't declassify,

Post by Libertas »

ProfX wrote: Sun Aug 14, 2022 1:04 pm There ain't no such thing as "blanket declassification". Even if it's NOT nuclear stuff, an active POTUS can't just wave his magic dick over a box of documents and declare them declassified. Doesn't work that way. There's a process you go through for any classified material. The POTUS has the power to do it but there is a bureaucratic procedure. As for nuclear declassification, as you just showed, it requires lots of review and a massive paper trail.

Also, you can't just do it retroactively after you leave office.

All in all, it's just more BS. BTW, classified documents that are now declassified are normally marked/stamped as such. I bet the ones the FBI seized are not.
Notice the board cons either not saying ONE WORD about this entire situation or DEFENDS trmp by saying he surely wouldnt do this to commit espionage?


I honest to god thought MAYBE this would make a difference, one of them's only comment is to insist on still calling it a raid.
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Re: Saw this at DU about how we know he didn't declassify,

Post by Drak »

ProfX wrote: Sun Aug 14, 2022 1:04 pm

Also, you can't just do it retroactively after you leave office.
I guess Jimmy Carter can just retroactively reclassify them! :lol:

They know there's nothing they can defend here. Their excuses have morphed all week. It's gone from "what documents?" to "Trump has no classified records!" to "the documents were planted by the FBI!" to "the other guy did it too!" to "I waved my magic wand and declassified them!" to "Trump had only two days to move out of the WH and things easily could have been taken in the rush!"

None of it makes sense, it's all stupid lies.
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Re: Saw this at DU about how we know he didn't declassify,

Post by Bludogdem »

Seems to be a Maybe, Maybe Not,sort of thing.

“ But fan letters and snapshots are one matter, and launch codes are another—and here the details of classification might decide just how much trouble Trump is in. First, let’s focus on the absolute portion of near-absolute power. The 1988 Supreme Court case Navy v. Egan confirmed that classification authority flows from the president except in specific instances separated from his powers by law. And here is where things get theological: A president can make most documents classified or declassified simply by willing them so. This peculiar power is so great that the government has an office that exists solely to manage it: the Information Security Oversight Office, which has a strong claim to being the coolest government office you’ve never heard of. (The longest-serving director of this office, Steven Garfinkel, told me that for two decades he had access to pretty much every secret in the executive branch. “If there was a version of the game show Jeopardy entirely about the federal government,” he deadpanned to me once, “I would be in the Tournament of Champions every single year.” Garfinkel retired to teach high school in 2002 and died in 2018.)”

“ His successor, J. William Leonard, led the office under George W. Bush, and he confirmed the lack of general limitation of his boss’s power. While a president is president, Leonard told me, “the rules and procedures governing the classification and declassification of information apply to everyone else.” And that means Trump could have declassified whatever he wished (again, with specific limitations soon to be discussed) before carting it off to Mar-a-Lago. He would not have had to file paperwork—just “utter the magic words,” Leonard told me. He could have waved his hand over the U-Haul trailer as it headed out the White House driveway and down I-95 toward Florida, and there would have been no classified material in there to mishandle.”

https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archi ... ts/671119/

Certainly makes AG Garland’s job difficult.

And I’m pretty sure AG Garland knows that any charges brought under the Presidential Records Act would imperil the constitutionality of said act. It survived one challenge in the Supreme Court but both
Warren Burger and William Rehnquist said it was unconstitutional. Imagine if it came before the current court with 6 originalist/textualist.
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Re: Saw this at DU about how we know he didn't declassify,

Post by gounion »

They aren't originalists or textualists. They are radicals. Nutjobs.
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Re: Saw this at DU about how we know he didn't declassify,

Post by ProfX »

It's a wee bit more complex than the genial Msr. Leonard put it.

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/trump-classified-records/

First, a U.S. president does have uniquely sweeping declassification abilities, though there is a process that involves written documentation and several other steps.

It's not the case that a president can declassify documents with just verbal instructions. His instruction to declassify a given document would first be memorialized in a written memo, usually drafted by White House counsel, which he would then sign.

Typically, the leadership of the agency or agencies with equities in the document would be consulted and given an opportunity to provide their views on the declassification decision. As the ultimate declassification authority, however, the president can decide to override any objections they raise.

Once a final decision is made, and the relevant agency receives the president's signed memo, the physical document in question would be marked — the old classification level would be crossed out — and the document would then be stamped, "Declassified on X date" by the agency in question.

[snip]

Courts may ultimately have to decide how sweeping a sitting president's declassification powers can be. But U.S. officials familiar with the classification process to date point out that, unless and until the documents are stamped "Declassified" by the requisite agency, and following the submission of a written memo signed by the president, they have historically not been considered declassified.

It is also unclear how central a legal question the classification process and the president's role in it could be. As the New York Times points out, none of the statutes cited in the warrant rely on whether the records were classified or not. The search warrant signed by the Florida magistrate judge entails items "illegally possessed in violation of 18 U.S.C. § § 793, 2071, or 1519."

That first code, Section 793, and more commonly known as the Espionage Act, applies to defense information. It applies, for instance, to material illegally removed "from its proper place of custody" or that is lost, stolen or destroyed.

The next statute, Section 2071, bans concealing, removing, mutilating or destroying records filed with U.S. courts. And the final one, Section 1519, prohibits concealing, destroying or mutilating records to obstruct or influence an investigation.

[snip][end]

Thus, allow me to note, as stated above:

1. There could be problems with even improper handling of unclassified materials.
2. There would be paperwork that exists for declassified documents. IF they WERE declassified (would have had to happen prior to 1/20/21) they SHOULD be STAMPED as such and normally there WOULD be a paper trail. A signed memo. Possibly review by another intel agency. He cannot just bless the U-Haul sailing down I-95. We need more than his say-so. Or Kash Patel's.
3. This depends, as noted on the classification level (i.e. Top Secret) and the material dealt with (identity of spies, nuclear secrets, etc.)
Last edited by ProfX on Sun Aug 14, 2022 3:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Saw this at DU about how we know he didn't declassify,

Post by gounion »

Have you ever noticed that, down deep, conservatives are royalists? They don't really like the idea of representative democracy, or the idea of voting. They think Trump should be King, not a head executive that must abide by the rule of law. They think he should be able to ignore our laws and our Constitution. There is nothing Trump can do that they will oppose.
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Re: Saw this at DU about how we know he didn't declassify,

Post by Libertas »

gounion wrote: Sun Aug 14, 2022 3:17 pm Have you ever noticed that, down deep, conservatives are royalists? They don't really like the idea of representative democracy, or the idea of voting. They think Trump should be King, not a head executive that must abide by the rule of law. They think he should be able to ignore our laws and our Constitution. There is nothing Trump can do that they will oppose.
Imagine that level of blind loyalty if it is DESTUPID in the WH...the only good thing about DeStupid is he is smart enough to know that violence and mass murder (something trump and MAGA want) is not good for the stock market.
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Re: Saw this at DU about how we know he didn't declassify,

Post by ProfX »

Trump says he declassified Mar-a-Lago documents. Experts say it's unclear whether that will hold up.
Legal experts say presidents have absolute authority to declassify documents, but it's not clear whether Trump ever took action to do so.
https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/donald ... -rcna42311

[snip]

The 1978 Presidential Records Act, which requires presidents to turn over documents to the National Archives at the end of their administration, lacks an enforcement mechanism, but there are multiple federal laws regarding the handling of classified documents. Trump signed one such law in 2018, increasing the penalty for "unauthorized removal and retention of classified documents or material" from one year to five years in prison.

[snip]

Richard Immerman, a historian and an assistant deputy director of national intelligence in the Obama administration, said that, while the president has the authority to declassify documents, there’s a formal process for doing so, and there's no indication Trump used it.

“He can’t just wave a wand and say it’s declassified,” Immerman said. “There has to be a formal process. That’s the only way the system can work,” because otherwise there would be no way of knowing who could handle or see the documents.

“I’ve seen thousands of declassified documents. They’re all marked ‘declassified’ with the date they were declassified,” Immerman said.

That does not appear to have been the case with some of the documents that were returned to the National Archives from Mar-a-Lago this year. Archivist David S. Ferriero, an Obama appointee, said in a letter to the House Committee on Oversight and Reform in February that his agency had "identified items marked as classified national security information within the boxes” from Mar-a-Lago.

[snip]

"We’ve told him there’s a process and not following it could be a problem but he didn’t care because he thinks this stuff is dumb,” the source said. “His attitude is that he is the president. He is in charge of the country and therefore national security. So he decides.”

Bradley Moss, a lawyer who specializes in national security issues, said, "That's not how it works."

"Trump could say we're declassifying this until he's blue in the face, but no one is allowed to touch those records until the markings are addressed," said Moss, a frequent Trump critic on Twitter.

He noted that Trump and White House officials should have been aware that more would be needed to declassify documents given their own experience on the issue. In October 2020, Trump tweeted, “I have fully authorized the total Declassification of any & all documents pertaining to the single greatest political CRIME in American History, the Russia Hoax. Likewise, the Hillary Clinton Email Scandal. No redactions!”

When news organizations sought to obtain the supposedly declassified documents, they were told they were still under wraps. Trump chief of staff Mark Meadows said in a sworn court filing in the case, “The president indicated to me that his statements on Twitter were not self-executing declassification orders and do not require the declassification or release of any particular documents.”

In the current dispute, the apparent lack of a paper trail showing that Trump declassified the documents before he left office could be a problem for the former president, said Stephen Vladeck, a University of Texas School of Law professor who specializes in national security.

[snip][end]

Finally, of course, as noted above, if they dealt with nuclear secrets or sources & methods ... he wouldn't have had this power, especially not unilaterally.
Last edited by ProfX on Sun Aug 14, 2022 4:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Saw this at DU about how we know he didn't declassify,

Post by Libertas »

Even if he did there are 3 separate crimes he committed he can be indicted for relating to taking them and selling them. Is what I read....
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Re: Saw this at DU about how we know he didn't declassify,

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We have no idea if he sold them. I speculated about it, doesn't mean I know what happened. I don't take my conjectures as fact.

Espionage Act only comes into play if they were "transferred to a third party." That would apply if he showed them to the sous chef at Mar-a-Lardo or any other unauthorized party. Or there could be issues if he left them sitting around the basement unsecured (appears to be the case) given that, as you may recall, there were quite a few Chinese spies essentially caught casing the place.
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Re: Saw this at DU about how we know he didn't declassify,

Post by ZoWie »

Every declassified document I've ever seen has these precise markings. They will still say (at a minimum) the classification grade and (at a maximum) the grade plus further restrictions such as TOP SECRET NOFORN (No Foreign Nationals). If a document is later declassified, the markings are indeed crossed out, not whited out or covered up, and there will be a more recent marking of DECLASSIFIED plus date and, I think, the authority doing so.

The president, indeed, cannot point at a box and say, "Everything in there is hereby declassified and is now public information." Even if he could, that authority went away when Biden took the oath. There is no retroactivity. He can't say so just as the FBI loads the box onto the armored truck down in Florida. This is a government of laws, even though the current generation of Republicans doesn't think so.
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Re: Saw this at DU about how we know he didn't declassify,

Post by ProfX »

ZoWie wrote: Sun Aug 14, 2022 4:16 pm The president, indeed, cannot point at a box and say, "Everything in there is hereby declassified and is now public information."
Two areas where he can't do that:

1. If it contains the name of spooks and spies. Remember Valerie Plame? Dashing Dick Cheney & his pals did not have the authority to blow her cover. Even if he was Veep. (Or ACTING POTUS.)
2. If it deals with nuclear/atomic energy act info and secrets.

There are others. I'm not sure the POTUS can openly disclose the locations of troops and their movements/actions if the Pentagon and Joint Chiefs object. "Loose lips sink ships". It's also very much a gray area if it was given to him by the intel agencies of a foreign ally and he doesn't have THEIR permission.

Somebody has got to look at the box, see what classified docs are in it, what the level is, what material they cover ... and then stamp the docs, "declassified," with the date. Probably over at that glorious Info Sec Ofc. It exists for a reason. Our buddy Kash-Money Patel is just blowing a lot of smoke as usual. "We didn't get around to it." :roll:
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Re: Saw this at DU about how we know he didn't declassify,

Post by Libertas »

ProfX wrote: Sun Aug 14, 2022 4:28 pm Two areas where he can't do that:

1. If it contains the name of spooks and spies. Remember Valerie Plame? Dashing Dick Cheney & his pals did not have the authority to blow her cover. Even if he was Veep. (Or ACTING POTUS.)
2. If it deals with nuclear/atomic energy act info and secrets.

There are others. I'm not sure the POTUS can openly disclose the locations of troops and their movements/actions if the Pentagon and Joint Chiefs object. "Loose lips sink ships". It's also very much a gray area if it was given to him by the intel agencies of a foreign ally and he doesn't have THEIR permission.

Somebody has got to look at the box, see what classified docs are in it, what the level is, what material they cover ... and then stamp the docs, "declassified," with the date. Probably over at that glorious Info Sec Ofc. It exists for a reason. Our buddy Kash-Money Patel is just blowing a lot of smoke as usual. "We didn't get around to it." :roll:
This conversation never happens if a dem did this, which no dem ever would. NEITHER side would even think of coming up with excuses.
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