If You Say Abortion is Murder ... Don't you Mean It?

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Number6
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Re: If You Say Abortion is Murder ... Don't you Mean It?

Post by Number6 »

ProfX wrote: Wed Aug 17, 2022 7:31 am I'm curious. In the pre-1973 history of this country, was any nurse ever charged for assisting with an abortion?

See, I'm just a logical consistency guy.
1. If abortion is murder - I don't believe that, but if YOU DO - then everything you are saying follows from that. No?
2. But they say they don't want to charge the women having abortions with murder or any crime. Well, it turns out that is very politically unpopular, but ... look, if you say it .... and please don't tell me they aren't saying it.
https://www.cafepress.com/+abortion-is- ... yard-signs
3. On the other hand, they are charging doctors with a crime in several states if they perform abortions. It's usually a felony with up to a 10 year prison sentence. That isn't about punishment & retribution? On what planet? :D
4. But I'm still perplexed on this: if the crime isn't murder (I mean, after all, if it WAS, the doctors COULD get the death penalty), then what else is it they are being charged with?
The point I'm making is if more than one person takes part in a crime everyone is who took part is equally guilty. So if a doctor performs and abortion then it would follow the doctor, the nurse, and the patient would be equally guilty of the crime of abortion? Why would the state selectively prosecute just the doctor? So the "law and order" and "anti-abortionists," usually the same people, are conflicted on what to do.


It does indeed look like a clusterfuck to me. The dog caught the car, and now the bumper is shredding their face.

From what I've read on the existing laws on the books - the answer is the doctor. The question is, for what crime?

"We just want to reduce abortions". OK, but then if it isn't murder, WHY? Can anybody answer that question?
An those who passed the law won't be able to answer the question.
BTW, in the article I posted about this, they go into quite a bit how even in El Salvador, where the anti-choice laws are far more draconian than ours, wealthy women still game the system to have abortions and avoid prosecutions, so (shock) it's mostly lower-class women who go to prison.
The same will happen here where those with money will game the system by traveling out of state to have an abortion. It's like in the 1950s when parents would send their pregnant daughters to visit their "grandparents" when in actuality they were havng an abortion.
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ProfX
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Re: If You Say Abortion is Murder ... Don't you Mean It?

Post by ProfX »

Libertas wrote: Wed Aug 17, 2022 11:54 am I like calling them "abolitionists"
Reason I am reluctant to do that is the first American abolitionists were people who wanted to abolish slavery. They were on the right side of history.

These "abolitionists" are not. (The reason I say that is almost every country in the world is going in the opposite direction on reproductive choice, notably, recently, Ireland.)
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Re: If You Say Abortion is Murder ... Don't you Mean It?

Post by ProfX »

bird wrote: Wed Aug 17, 2022 12:04 pm Um, I thought that states were the correct place to criminalize medical procedures. What happened to that? Why the need for a federal law? The meth labs of democracy are best…until they aren’t.
Kansas ... and the dawning realization they may not even be "winning" in the states they thought they were. :D
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Re: If You Say Abortion is Murder ... Don't you Mean It?

Post by bird »

ProfX wrote: Wed Aug 17, 2022 1:51 pm Kansas ... and the dawning realization they may not even be "winning" in the states they thought they were. :D
Agreed.

It also underscores that the powers given to the states in the 10th amendment (NOT rights, only humans have rights. States are constructs.) are a jumbled mess when considering a nationwide issue. States should have NO powers when dealing with rights. Of course Scalia’s bullshit is just that, bullshit.
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Re: If You Say Abortion is Murder ... Don't you Mean It?

Post by Libertas »

ProfX wrote: Wed Aug 17, 2022 1:49 pm Reason I am reluctant to do that is the first American abolitionists were people who wanted to abolish slavery. They were on the right side of history.

These "abolitionists" are not. (The reason I say that is almost every country in the world is going in the opposite direction on reproductive choice, notably, recently, Ireland.)
Yeah, I knew there was a reason I was hesitating to use that, thanks. I wont use that now.

I like antidemocratic violent racists...
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Re: If You Say Abortion is Murder ... Don't you Mean It?

Post by Glennfs »

There is no doubt that abortion ends a life. But, charging people with murder in most cases is to extreme.
Speaking of extremists they are some on the far left that believe a woman's right should be up to the time of birth. Before any of you start bleating about the baby being deformed to the best of my knowledge that provision hasn't been included in any proposals.
Also, we as a society need to decide at what point is it murder. If a mother can abort a child then why should a person be charged with manslaughter if that same unborn child is killed in an accident or during the commission of a crime.
It seems the very same people who say it is not a child, turn around and then claim it is a child.
Finally before anyone decides what my position on abortion is without knowing it is as follows.
If it were something new I would oppose it. But, because it has been legal for 50 years ot should stay legal for the first trimester.
After that only if the mother's life is in danger.
I also support a 72 hour cooling off period between the time the mother decides to have an abortion and the time it is performed.
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Re: If You Say Abortion is Murder ... Don't you Mean It?

Post by ProfX »

Glennfs wrote: Wed Aug 17, 2022 6:03 pm There is no doubt that abortion ends a life.
So does masturbation, stepping on a cockroach, and eating beef. At least the non plant based or lab made stuff.
But, charging people with murder in most cases is to extreme.
So, isn't the ending of human life normally resulting in a charge of murder?

If abortion is the ending of a (fully) human life, and charging people with murder is too extreme, maybe it's because the first statement is false?

That is not a trick question.

Deep down, I think even much of the anti-choice side understands this. Or might be incrementalists waiting on revealing how they really feel. One or the other.
Speaking of extremists they are some on the far left that believe a woman's right should be up to the time of birth.
1. Name them.
2. You do know that under Roe, third-trimester/late-term abortions were only allowed for medical reasons. NOT elective. Right?
Also, we as a society need to decide at what point is it murder.
"We" did. "We" under Roe set the framework for viability. At least at the point where the fetus' rights start to weigh equally with the rights of the mother. BTW, it's how most countries in the world do it.

I'd be perfectly fine with going back to that standard. But then, I didn't want Roe overturned.
If it were something new I would oppose it. But, because it has been legal for 50 years ot should stay legal for the first trimester.
Under Roe, it was fully elective in the first trimester, mostly elective in the 2nd trimester, and in the 3rd trimester, post-viability, it was only permitted for medical reasons. I would take that back. Perhaps Congress now can re-establish that framework.
I also support a 72 hour cooling off period between the time the mother decides to have an abortion and the time it is performed.
I don't.
a. this assumes it's a snap decision that the mother hasn't already agonized over for a long time, and seems to distrust the ability of women to decide for themselves.
b. it's a real problem when the clock for ending an opportunity to have one ends at 6 weeks.

Also, why don't you care about the health of the mother, as well as just danger to her life? Both matter. And both can be affected by a pregnancy.
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Re: If You Say Abortion is Murder ... Don't you Mean It?

Post by ProfX »

Oh and BTW:

http://www.inquiriesjournal.com/article ... ens-bodies

According to English common law, the destruction of a fetus was not considered homicide. Relying on the “born alive rule,” feticide was not equated with murder unless the fetus was born alive and survived independently of the mother before dying of prenatal injuries.1 Although misdemeanor liability could be imposed in circumstances in which a defendant’s actions caused the death of the fetus, jurists refused to impose murder charges unless the fetus survived long enough for the cause of death to be clear.2 Prior to 20th century legislation, U.S. law mirrored this common law “born alive rule.”

[snip][end]

There are fetal homicide laws today, and without getting into their complexities, the reality is, no one was ever charged with killing a fetus, unless it was born alive and later died, until some of these were passed starting in the 1970s. Many of those laws, also, -- depends on the state -- don't charge a person unless the fetus was past viability. Same standard as Roe.
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Re: If You Say Abortion is Murder ... Don't you Mean It?

Post by gounion »

Just a few things...
Glennfs wrote: Wed Aug 17, 2022 6:03 pm There is no doubt that abortion ends a life. But, charging people with murder in most cases is to extreme.
You're trying to have your cake and eat it too.
Speaking of extremists they are some on the far left that believe a woman's right should be up to the time of birth. Before any of you start bleating about the baby being deformed to the best of my knowledge that provision hasn't been included in any proposals.
Sorry, but no. Of course, you always accuse us of this. You've accused me of this. But it simply isn't true.
Also, we as a society need to decide at what point is it murder. If a mother can abort a child then why should a person be charged with manslaughter if that same unborn child is killed in an accident or during the commission of a crime.
It seems the very same people who say it is not a child, turn around and then claim it is a child.
Sorry, it's the right that does this, to try to backdoor abortion as murder. They pass a bill that says it's manslaughter to kill a fetus, then they can say it's already in the law that abortion is the same. It's dishonest to frame liberals for that one.
Finally before anyone decides what my position on abortion is without knowing it is as follows.
If it were something new I would oppose it. But, because it has been legal for 50 years ot should stay legal for the first trimester.
After that only if the mother's life is in danger.
Let's be clear: You believe it's MURDER. period. So what you're saying is bullshit. That's like saying since slavery was legal for centuries, it should stay legal.
I also support a 72 hour cooling off period between the time the mother decides to have an abortion and the time it is performed.
That's really good for poor women who have to travel several states over to get an abortion, then they have to find someplace to stay for 72 hours. You sure are thoughtful.
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Re: If You Say Abortion is Murder ... Don't you Mean It?

Post by Libertas »

Barely educated manual laborer becomes instant scientist and expert after purchasing an iPhone... :lol:


Hey, I am not an expert either, but I dont CLAIM to be...I am not all that educated either, but I dont make bold, blanket SCIENTIFIC STATEMENTS about human life or absence of same... :lol:

If there wasnt so much at stake, if Women and doctors werent going to be beaten and killed for sure, this would be funny. :twisted:
I sigh in your general direction.
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Re: If You Say Abortion is Murder ... Don't you Mean It?

Post by carmenjonze »

Glennfs wrote: Wed Aug 17, 2022 6:03 pm There is no doubt that abortion ends a life.
Miscarriage ends a life. You guys want it criminalized, as well.
But, ...
You vote for these policies and politicians.
72 hour cooling off period
:? some arbitrary "cooling off period"?

Where did you get this random number, outside what you've been told by forced-birther propaganda websites?

What would a smaller-government conservative male know about what goes into making these decisions?

It's between the pregnant person and their doctor, not the patient, their doctor, and an authoritarian conservative nanny state.
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Re: If You Say Abortion is Murder ... Don't you Mean It?

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carmenjonze wrote: Wed Aug 17, 2022 8:32 pm Miscarriage ends a life. You guys want it criminalized, as well.



You vote for these policies and politicians.



:? some arbitrary "cooling off period"?

Where did you get this random number, outside what you've been told by forced-birther propaganda websites?

What would a smaller-government conservative male know about what goes into making these decisions?

It's between the pregnant person and their doctor, not the patient, their doctor, and an authoritarian conservative nanny state.

That clown fantasies about shooting looters. That ends life. He doesn't give a shit about human life.
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Re: If You Say Abortion is Murder ... Don't you Mean It?

Post by Bludogdem »

ProfX wrote: Wed Aug 17, 2022 6:27 pm 2. You do know that under Roe, third-trimester/late-term abortions were only allowed for medical reasons. NOT elective. Right?
That’s incorrect.
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Re: If You Say Abortion is Murder ... Don't you Mean It?

Post by carmenjonze »

Bludogdem wrote: Wed Aug 17, 2022 9:21 pm That’s incorrect.
^forced-birth con.

#smallerlimitedgovernment
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Re: If You Say Abortion is Murder ... Don't you Mean It?

Post by ProfX »

Bludogdem wrote: Wed Aug 17, 2022 9:21 pm That’s incorrect.
What's incorrect about it?

https://www.guttmacher.org/evidence-you ... r-abortion

Even after fetal viability, states may not prohibit abortions “necessary to preserve the life or health" of the pregnant person;
“health” in this context includes both physical and mental health;
only the physician, in the course of evaluating the specific circumstances of an individual case, can define what constitutes “health” and when a fetus is viable; and
states cannot require additional physicians to confirm the physician’s judgment that the pregnant person's life or health is at risk.

[snip][end]

It's no longer solely elective by the patient past viability, and it now becomes a medical decision by the physician, who must now decide that it is necessary for mother's life - OR health.

That's what I said.
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Re: If You Say Abortion is Murder ... Don't you Mean It?

Post by Bludogdem »

ProfX wrote: Wed Aug 17, 2022 9:46 pm What's incorrect about it?

https://www.guttmacher.org/evidence-you ... r-abortion

Even after fetal viability, states may not prohibit abortions “necessary to preserve the life or health" of the pregnant person;
“health” in this context includes both physical and mental health;
only the physician, in the course of evaluating the specific circumstances of an individual case, can define what constitutes “health” and when a fetus is viable; and
states cannot require additional physicians to confirm the physician’s judgment that the pregnant person's life or health is at risk.

[snip][end]

It's no longer solely elective by the patient past viability, and it now becomes a medical decision by the physician, who must now decide that it is necessary for mother's life - OR health.

That's what I said.
“ 2. You do know that under Roe, third-trimester/late-term abortions were only allowed for medical reasons. NOT elective. Right? ”

Then explain why six states and DC have no abortion restrictions.

The decision in Roe gave states the option to restrict in the third trimester. The decision itself did not restrict third trimester @bortoon.
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Re: If You Say Abortion is Murder ... Don't you Mean It?

Post by carmenjonze »

Bludogdem wrote: Thu Aug 18, 2022 7:46 am “ 2. You do know that under Roe, third-trimester/late-term abortions were only allowed for medical reasons. NOT elective. Right? ”

Then explain why six states and DC have no abortion restrictions.

The decision in Roe gave states the option to restrict in the third trimester. The decision itself did not restrict third trimester @bortoon.
Source these claims, please.
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Re: If You Say Abortion is Murder ... Don't you Mean It?

Post by ProfX »

I've sourced the claim.

Anti-abortion group exaggerates how states regulate late-term abortions
https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2 ... s-regulat/

Focus on the Family cheered the toppling of Roe v. Wade, declaring the Supreme Court’s decision "the most consequential legal ruling of our lifetime."

Several days later, the evangelical Christian group bought ads on Facebook and Instagram warning about late-term abortions in several states where the procedure remains legal.

One ad claimed:
"Did you know that abortion is available all nine months of pregnancy in New Mexico — even up until the moment before birth and for any reason?"

Besides New Mexico, ads with the same text singled out Oregon, Alaska, Vermont and New Jersey. The ads urged viewers to sign online petitions against the "extreme abortion law" in each state.

Earlier Focus on the Family ads claimed that Colorado’s law "allows for abortion at any point of pregnancy — right up to delivery, no questions asked!"

Laws in those six states, as well as in the District of Columbia, do not explicitly prohibit an abortion from being performed at any stage of pregnancy.

But abortions later in pregnancy are rare, and are generally not being done "up until the moment before birth and for any reason."

These abortions are performed on a case-by-case basis when there are maternal or fetal complications, said Laurie Sobel, associate director of women’s health policy at the Kaiser Family Foundation, an authority on heath care information.

"People cannot opt for an abortion instead of child birth when they are full term," she said.

[snip]

Here are their regulations and a look at how often abortions are done at or after 21 weeks, which is one marker the CDC and states use in reporting on abortions:

Alaska: There is no law permitting or banning abortion, meaning it likely will remain legal there, at least in the immediate future. The Alaska Supreme Court recognized the right to abortion under the state constitution. Two of the 1,226 abortions (0.2%) performed in Alaska in 2021 were done at or after 21 weeks, according to the state.

Colorado: The state passed a law in 2022 directly allowing access to abortions. An anti-abortion activist falsely claimed that the law was "legalizing abortions through all nine months, up until the moment of birth." In 2021, 1.5% of abortions in Colorado were done at or after 21 weeks, according to the state.

New Jersey: The state passed a law in 2022 directly allowing access to abortions. Even though the law does not prohibit abortions at any stage of pregnancy, New Jersey’s providers do not perform them after 24 to 26 weeks, Dr. Glenmarie Matthews, director of the Reproductive Choice Program at New Jersey Medical School, told PolitiFact.

Any procedure near the end of pregnancy, she added, would be induced labor, not an abortion. "No one’s doing that. It doesn't exist. People are just using their wild imaginations," she said.

New Mexico: The state has no law permitting or banning abortion, meaning it likely will remain legal there, at least in the immediate future. The latest state figures show that in 2019, 1.8% of abortions were done at 21 weeks or after. University of New Mexico Health offers first- and second-trimester (after 14 weeks) abortions. It does not provide third-trimester abortions, a spokesperson said.

Oregon: The state passed a law in 2017 directly allowing access to abortions. In 2020, about 1.57% of abortions were performed at or after 21 weeks, according to the state’s latest figures. An anti-abortion group said following the Roe reversal that it plans to bring a bill to Oregon lawmakers to ban abortion later in pregnancy.

Vermont: The state passed a law in 2019 directly allowing access to abortions. The latest available state data shows that 1.5% of the abortions performed in 2019 occurred at or after 21 weeks.

No providers in Vermont perform elective abortions after 22 weeks, Stephanie Winters, deputy director of the Vermont Medical Society, told PolitiFact. When these abortions are done, "it is not because of an unwanted pregnancy, these are medical reasons," she said.

Our ruling

Focus on the Family said in ads that abortion "is available all nine months of pregnancy" in Alaska, Colorado, New Jersey, New Mexico, Oregon and Vermont, "even up until the moment before birth and for any reason."

Under laws in those six states, abortion is not specifically prohibited at any stage of pregnancy.

But late-term abortions are rare and usually for urgent medical reasons. Nationally, less than 1% of abortions are performed at or after 21 weeks of pregnancy, and they are roughly as rare in the states where there is no time prohibition on abortion.

Near full term, contrary to what the ads suggest, abortions are not done, experts say.

The statement contains an element of truth but ignores critical facts that would give a different impression. We rate it Mostly False.

[snip][end]

They rate it Mostly False, because even in those six states and DC (and bearing in mind in some of those states it wasn't true until 2022), late term abortions are rare and unusual, and only performed for medical (and not elective) reasons. Sometimes the law doesn't have to explicitly spell out what has been a norm in the medical community for a long time.

I did not say Roe forced every state to explicitly prohibit all elective third trimester abortions. I just said under the framework, they don't happen except for rare medical reasons, and I'm correct. Even in 2022.
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Re: If You Say Abortion is Murder ... Don't you Mean It?

Post by carmenjonze »

ProfX wrote: Thu Aug 18, 2022 9:11 am I've sourced the claim.
Haha yeah but the question is, where did this jackass get his info.

Anti-abortion group exaggerates how states regulate late-term abortions
https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2 ... s-regulat/

Focus on the Family cheered the toppling of Roe v. Wade, declaring the Supreme Court’s decision "the most consequential legal ruling of our lifetime."

Several days later, the evangelical Christian group bought ads on Facebook and Instagram warning about late-term abortions in several states where the procedure remains legal.

One ad claimed:
"Did you know that abortion is available all nine months of pregnancy in New Mexico — even up until the moment before birth and for any reason?"

Besides New Mexico, ads with the same text singled out Oregon, Alaska, Vermont and New Jersey. The ads urged viewers to sign online petitions against the "extreme abortion law" in each state.

Earlier Focus on the Family ads claimed that Colorado’s law "allows for abortion at any point of pregnancy — right up to delivery, no questions asked!"

Laws in those six states, as well as in the District of Columbia, do not explicitly prohibit an abortion from being performed at any stage of pregnancy.

But abortions later in pregnancy are rare, and are generally not being done "up until the moment before birth and for any reason."

These abortions are performed on a case-by-case basis when there are maternal or fetal complications, said Laurie Sobel, associate director of women’s health policy at the Kaiser Family Foundation, an authority on heath care information.

"People cannot opt for an abortion instead of child birth when they are full term," she said.

[snip]

Here are their regulations and a look at how often abortions are done at or after 21 weeks, which is one marker the CDC and states use in reporting on abortions:

Alaska: There is no law permitting or banning abortion, meaning it likely will remain legal there, at least in the immediate future. The Alaska Supreme Court recognized the right to abortion under the state constitution. Two of the 1,226 abortions (0.2%) performed in Alaska in 2021 were done at or after 21 weeks, according to the state.

Colorado: The state passed a law in 2022 directly allowing access to abortions. An anti-abortion activist falsely claimed that the law was "legalizing abortions through all nine months, up until the moment of birth." In 2021, 1.5% of abortions in Colorado were done at or after 21 weeks, according to the state.

New Jersey: The state passed a law in 2022 directly allowing access to abortions. Even though the law does not prohibit abortions at any stage of pregnancy, New Jersey’s providers do not perform them after 24 to 26 weeks, Dr. Glenmarie Matthews, director of the Reproductive Choice Program at New Jersey Medical School, told PolitiFact.

Any procedure near the end of pregnancy, she added, would be induced labor, not an abortion. "No one’s doing that. It doesn't exist. People are just using their wild imaginations," she said.

New Mexico: The state has no law permitting or banning abortion, meaning it likely will remain legal there, at least in the immediate future. The latest state figures show that in 2019, 1.8% of abortions were done at 21 weeks or after. University of New Mexico Health offers first- and second-trimester (after 14 weeks) abortions. It does not provide third-trimester abortions, a spokesperson said.

Oregon: The state passed a law in 2017 directly allowing access to abortions. In 2020, about 1.57% of abortions were performed at or after 21 weeks, according to the state’s latest figures. An anti-abortion group said following the Roe reversal that it plans to bring a bill to Oregon lawmakers to ban abortion later in pregnancy.

Vermont: The state passed a law in 2019 directly allowing access to abortions. The latest available state data shows that 1.5% of the abortions performed in 2019 occurred at or after 21 weeks.

No providers in Vermont perform elective abortions after 22 weeks, Stephanie Winters, deputy director of the Vermont Medical Society, told PolitiFact. When these abortions are done, "it is not because of an unwanted pregnancy, these are medical reasons," she said.

Our ruling

Focus on the Family said in ads that abortion "is available all nine months of pregnancy" in Alaska, Colorado, New Jersey, New Mexico, Oregon and Vermont, "even up until the moment before birth and for any reason."

Under laws in those six states, abortion is not specifically prohibited at any stage of pregnancy.

But late-term abortions are rare and usually for urgent medical reasons. Nationally, less than 1% of abortions are performed at or after 21 weeks of pregnancy, and they are roughly as rare in the states where there is no time prohibition on abortion.

Near full term, contrary to what the ads suggest, abortions are not done, experts say.

The statement contains an element of truth but ignores critical facts that would give a different impression. We rate it Mostly False.

[snip][end]

They rate it Mostly False, because even in those six states and DC (and bearing in mind in some of those states it wasn't true until 2022), late term abortions are rare and unusual, and only performed for medical (and not elective) reasons. Sometimes the law doesn't have to explicitly spell out what has been a norm in the medical community for a long time.

I did not say Roe forced every state to explicitly prohibit all elective third trimester abortions. I just said under the framework, they don't happen except for rare medical reasons, and I'm correct. Even in 2022.
Ha, people have gotten on me for referring to this organization as “Focus on the Fascists,” over the years. I don’t care. :lol:

These cons can only make their points with distortions and lies. FoF has been at it for a whole generation.
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Re: If You Say Abortion is Murder ... Don't you Mean It?

Post by Bludogdem »

“ You do know that under Roe, third-trimester/late-term abortions were only allowed for medical reasons. NOT elective. Right? ”

I’d say that’s pretty explicit. You’re swimming in bullshit.
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Re: If You Say Abortion is Murder ... Don't you Mean It?

Post by Bludogdem »

On issues like abortion humanity and logic are often at odds.
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Re: If You Say Abortion is Murder ... Don't you Mean It?

Post by ProfX »

Bludogdem wrote: Thu Aug 18, 2022 11:33 am I’d say that’s pretty explicit. You’re swimming in bullshit.
That's rich, coming from you.

Show me where elective abortions are being performed past 26 weeks in any of those states or DC. Elective meaning, woman can walk in, and for any reason, have an abortion. It's not happening.

Prove me wrong.
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Re: If You Say Abortion is Murder ... Don't you Mean It?

Post by ProfX »

Bludogdem wrote: Thu Aug 18, 2022 11:34 am On issues like abortion humanity and logic are often at odds.
I do not know what that means.
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Re: If You Say Abortion is Murder ... Don't you Mean It?

Post by gounion »

Bludogdem wrote: Thu Aug 18, 2022 11:33 am “ You do know that under Roe, third-trimester/late-term abortions were only allowed for medical reasons. NOT elective. Right? ”

I’d say that’s pretty explicit. You’re swimming in bullshit.
translation: "I've got nothin'!"

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
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Re: If You Say Abortion is Murder ... Don't you Mean It?

Post by Glennfs »

ProfX wrote: Wed Aug 17, 2022 6:27 pm So does masturbation, stepping on a cockroach, and eating beef. At least the non plant based or lab made stuff.



So, isn't the ending of human life normally resulting in a charge of murder?

If abortion is the ending of a (fully) human life, and charging people with murder is too extreme, maybe it's because the first statement is false?

That is not a trick question.

Deep down, I think even much of the anti-choice side understands this. Or might be incrementalists waiting on revealing how they really feel. One or the other.



1. Name them.
2. You do know that under Roe, third-trimester/late-term abortions were only allowed for medical reasons. NOT elective. Right?



"We" did. "We" under Roe set the framework for viability. At least at the point where the fetus' rights start to weigh equally with the rights of the mother. BTW, it's how most countries in the world do it.

I'd be perfectly fine with going back to that standard. But then, I didn't want Roe overturned.



Under Roe, it was fully elective in the first trimester, mostly elective in the 2nd trimester, and in the 3rd trimester, post-viability, it was only permitted for medical reasons. I would take that back. Perhaps Congress now can re-establish that framework.



I don't.
a. this assumes it's a snap decision that the mother hasn't already agonized over for a long time, and seems to distrust the ability of women to decide for themselves.
b. it's a real problem when the clock for ending an opportunity to have one ends at 6 weeks.

Also, why don't you care about the health of the mother, as well as just danger to her life? Both matter. And both can be affected by a pregnancy.
Only a liberal mind could consider an unborn child the same as a cockroach.
" I am a socialist " Bernie Sanders
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