So is this why Trump buried Ivana at his golf course?

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JoeMemphis

Re: So is this why Trump buried Ivana at his golf course?

Post by JoeMemphis »

ProfX wrote: Fri Sep 02, 2022 11:52 am I have argued this with you too many times already Joe, and am not going to do it any further.

THe only thing I find puzzling is people who say they want more bipartisan cooperation in Washington DC, but really mean only on the conservative policy agenda they prefer.

That's it. You can go back to arguing with GoU over the details of this for another ten pages. I get tired, personally, of arguing with walls, especially walls who say the problem in Washington DC is lack of cooperation. :roll:

Universal Health Care is a goal I have, Joe. Most countries share it. For reasons I've posted about many times. The method doesn't matter to me as much as the goal. M4A, a new public option, something like Canada's single payer, those are the three things most people talk about, I only note there are even ways beyond those three. All I know for sure is you'll reject them. :D

I guess you don't want bipartisan cooperation on THAT because it's not one of your goals. I get that. I'm tired of arguing about it with you.
I surely will reject something you can’t even sell to a state full of people who claim to want the same thing you say you want. I don’t see a middle ground when it’s putting government in charge of the funding mechanism for health care. You say that isn’t the case. Well I don’t know that I’m sold that won’t be the case.

So I repeat. Show me where “it” works in this country in a state. Pick one. I don’t care. Pass it there. Implement it there. Demonstrate its benefits there. If not, all you are selling is blue sky.

I think there are other alternatives that allowing the government more control in the health care industry other than single payer and other than M4A but that is all you guys will consider. Maybe something outside of government isn’t in line with YOUR goals.

If you don’t want to discuss it anymore. That’s up to you. It matters not to me.
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Re: So is this why Trump buried Ivana at his golf course?

Post by gounion »

JoeMemphis wrote: Fri Sep 02, 2022 12:04 pm I surely will reject something you can’t even sell to a state full of people who claim to want the same thing you say you want. I don’t see a middle ground when it’s putting government in charge of the funding mechanism for health care. You say that isn’t the case. Well I don’t know that I’m sold that won’t be the case.

So I repeat. Show me where “it” works in this country in a state. Pick one. I don’t care. Pass it there. Implement it there. Demonstrate its benefits there. If not, all you are selling is blue sky.

I think there are other alternatives that allowing the government more control in the health care industry other than single payer and other than M4A but that is all you guys will consider. Maybe something outside of government isn’t in line with YOUR goals.

If you don’t want to discuss it anymore. That’s up to you. It matters not to me.
It works everywhere.
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ProfX
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Re: So is this why Trump buried Ivana at his golf course?

Post by ProfX »

Joe, on my planet, public policy is a discussion about what government should or shouldn't do, and then maybe how.

I'm all for discussing anything you want. A political discussion is about what government should do. (Or not, as the case may be; I too have things I don't want gov't doing, like banning books.)

I don't disagree with you people maybe could pay more attention to cost comparisons in doing health care decisions. Of course, the biggest thing limiting your idea is that most people have health insurance, which usually limits what doctors they can visit. Maybe there is a doctor down the street who will spike your wart for cheaper, but he's not in your provider network.

I saw the idea you talked about earlier in the thread. I agree with GoU (and a lot of health economists) that a purely free market for health care and its costs is unachievable. Most people, once they need medical care, are not willing to shop all over town looking for who will lance their boil the cheapest. They just want it lanced. But the other thing that makes it impossible is most people have a health insurer, which limits which providers they can visit. What you want seems to require eliminating health insurance. Maybe you know a way to do that without government? You'll let me know. :D
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JoeMemphis

Re: So is this why Trump buried Ivana at his golf course?

Post by JoeMemphis »

gounion wrote: Fri Sep 02, 2022 12:08 pm It works everywhere.
So it should be all the much easier for you to sell it to your fellow travelers in CA. No more excuses.
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Re: So is this why Trump buried Ivana at his golf course?

Post by gounion »

JoeMemphis wrote: Fri Sep 02, 2022 12:24 pm So it should be all the much easier for you to sell it to your fellow travelers in CA. No more excuses.
Deflection as always, because you want the money to keep rolling in, don't you? You can't debate the superiority of corporate health care, because you KNOW it's inferior.

Why don't you explain why you were so damned against ObamaCare, but now you support it. You're always on the wrong side of history.
JoeMemphis

Re: So is this why Trump buried Ivana at his golf course?

Post by JoeMemphis »

ProfX wrote: Fri Sep 02, 2022 12:12 pm Joe, on my planet, public policy is a discussion about what government should or shouldn't do, and then maybe how.

I'm all for discussing anything you want. A political discussion is about what government should do. (Or not, as the case may be; I too have things I don't want gov't doing, like banning books.)

I don't disagree with you people maybe could pay more attention to cost comparisons in doing health care decisions. Of course, the biggest thing limiting your idea is that most people have health insurance, which usually limits what doctors they can visit. Maybe there is a doctor down the street who will spike your wart for cheaper, but he's not in your provider network.

I saw the idea you talked about earlier in the thread. I agree with GoU (and a lot of health economists) that a purely free market for health care and its costs is unachievable. Most people, once they need medical care, are not willing to shop all over town looking for who will lance their boil the cheapest. They just want it lanced. But the other thing that makes it impossible is most people have a health insurer, which limits which providers they can visit. What you want seems to require eliminating health insurance. Maybe you know a way to do that without government? You'll let me know. :D
We have taken the consumer out of health insurance. The insurer works for employers and providers. They have to deal with the insured to some degree but the incentive is to keep the employer happy and the providers happy. If you want to bend the cost curve, you need educated and involved consumers. Most medical procedures aren’t emergency procedures. They are planned.

If you want to bend the cost curve, find a way to incentivize the consumer and the insurance company to work together to address better outcomes, improve overall health, at a fair cost. Turning the funding over to government does none of those three. It merely shifts the payment mechanism in such a way that puts everything on autopilot. Out of sight. Out of mind. At least until the money runs out. It doesn’t and won’t lower costs or improve outcomes.

Just my opinion.
JoeMemphis

Re: So is this why Trump buried Ivana at his golf course?

Post by JoeMemphis »

gounion wrote: Fri Sep 02, 2022 12:26 pm Deflection as always, because you want the money to keep rolling in, don't you? You can't debate the superiority of corporate health care, because you KNOW it's inferior.

Why don't you explain why you were so damned against ObamaCare, but now you support it. You're always on the wrong side of history.
If you were attempting to pass ACA today, I still would not support it. However since it’s the current law, I have learned to live with it and don’t support replacing it with what I consider an even worse solution which is a public option, single payer or M4A.
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ProfX
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Re: So is this why Trump buried Ivana at his golf course?

Post by ProfX »

It's an interesting one. I don't know how you'd do it without government, though. :D

So you do want government doing something, yourself.

Just mine in turn. :mrgreen:

OK, and one more thing. Here's someone else's opinion.

Free market ideology doesn’t work for health care
https://publicintegrity.org/health/free ... alth-care/

I happen to share it. :mrgreen:
Last edited by ProfX on Fri Sep 02, 2022 12:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: So is this why Trump buried Ivana at his golf course?

Post by gounion »

JoeMemphis wrote: Fri Sep 02, 2022 12:36 pm If you were attempting to pass ACA today, I still would not support it. However since it’s the current law, I have learned to live with it and don’t support replacing it with what I consider an even worse solution which is a public option, single payer or M4A.
What do you not support in the ACA?
JoeMemphis

Re: So is this why Trump buried Ivana at his golf course?

Post by JoeMemphis »

gounion wrote: Fri Sep 02, 2022 12:42 pm What do you not support in the ACA?
It didn’t bend the cost curve and it didn’t provide full coverage or make coverage more affordable. Two of the main reasons for the legislation. It merely shifted costs.
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ProfX
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Re: So is this why Trump buried Ivana at his golf course?

Post by ProfX »

ACA did have an effect.

Image

Did it eliminate people who were uninsured, no. Did it decrease it, yes. It probably would have gone farther with a public option.

Again, it depends on what your goals are. That was one of its goals, reducing the # of uninsured, and it worked.

As for reducing drug costs, well, we finally got some ability for the government to negotiate drug prices with the Inflation Reduction Act. Personally, as always, I'm looking forward to more in this area. :D Negotiating for Medicare is good, we can (and should have) done more.
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Re: So is this why Trump buried Ivana at his golf course?

Post by Libertas »

Cons hate it when average people or especially when POOR people are helped.

Obama does something AMAZING and since it isnt perfect, cons shit all over it. It is one of the reasons they are not patriotic.
I sigh in your general direction.
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Re: So is this why Trump buried Ivana at his golf course?

Post by gounion »

JoeMemphis wrote: Fri Sep 02, 2022 12:47 pm It didn’t bend the cost curve and it didn’t provide full coverage or make coverage more affordable. Two of the main reasons for the legislation. It merely shifted costs.
Actually, it did. And, it made coverage more affordable. The markets provided affordable coverage for those without employer-provided coverage. Before ObamaCare, you had to buy a individual coverage plan from the insurance company, which they could cancel at any time if you needed to use it. Plus, if you were older, or had pre-existing conditions, you couldn't buy coverage at all, because no company would sell coverage to someone that would be using thousands of dollars worth of insurance.

Plus, it did away with pre-existing conditions and lifetime maxes. Please explain why you think those shouldn't be stopped.

Let's remember Glenn said that ObamaCare would drive costs through the roof. Instead, HE has an ObamaCare policy now. He would be in trouble without it.

So explain why you want things to go back to what they were before ObamaCare.
JoeMemphis

Re: So is this why Trump buried Ivana at his golf course?

Post by JoeMemphis »

gounion wrote: Fri Sep 02, 2022 12:55 pm Actually, it did. And, it made coverage more affordable. The markets provided affordable coverage for those without employer-provided coverage. Before ObamaCare, you had to buy a individual coverage plan from the insurance company, which they could cancel at any time if you needed to use it. Plus, if you were older, or had pre-existing conditions, you couldn't buy coverage at all, because no company would sell coverage to someone that would be using thousands of dollars worth of insurance.

Plus, it did away with pre-existing conditions and lifetime maxes. Please explain why you think those shouldn't be stopped.

Let's remember Glenn said that ObamaCare would drive costs through the roof. Instead, HE has an ObamaCare policy now. He would be in trouble without it.

So explain why you want things to go back to what they were before ObamaCare.
So explain to me where I said things should go back to where they were? Why should I explain why I said something I never said.

Further, ask middle class taxpayers who don’t qualify for subsidies if insurance is any more affordable.
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Re: So is this why Trump buried Ivana at his golf course?

Post by Libertas »

JUST getting rid of preexisting clauses saved LIVES and billions of dollars for all of us including the assholes taking time out of their day today, here, to argue AGAINST it.

Amazing, and this is while the GOP has

NOT ONE IDEA FOR ANYTHING especially healthcare...
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Re: So is this why Trump buried Ivana at his golf course?

Post by gounion »

JoeMemphis wrote: Fri Sep 02, 2022 12:59 pm So explain to me where I said things should go back to where they were? Why should I explain why I said something I never said.
Yes, you did. You said you would still be against it if it were proposed today. So you don't want it. That's the bottom line. My question is why.
Further, ask middle class taxpayers who don’t qualify for subsidies if insurance is any more affordable.
It is, because everyone can buy health insurance at a group rate, no matter their age or pre-existing conditions. Before ObamaCare, that wasn't possible. If you were older or had pre-existing conditions, you couldn't find anything affordable at all.

Did you no know that?
JoeMemphis

Re: So is this why Trump buried Ivana at his golf course?

Post by JoeMemphis »

gounion wrote: Fri Sep 02, 2022 1:03 pm Yes, you did. You said you would still be against it if it were proposed today. So you don't want it. That's the bottom line. My question is why.

It is, because everyone can buy health insurance at a group rate, no matter their age or pre-existing conditions. Before ObamaCare, that wasn't possible. If you were older or had pre-existing conditions, you couldn't find anything affordable at all.

Did you no know that?
I already told you why I wouldn’t support it today. Go back and reread it. Nowhere did I say things should go back. I think I said as much and why. Go back and read.
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Re: So is this why Trump buried Ivana at his golf course?

Post by Libertas »

Dem: here is a program that helps 60% of the people

con: your program is shit because it does not help 100% of the people

Dem: any better ideas then?

con: nope
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Re: So is this why Trump buried Ivana at his golf course?

Post by gounion »

JoeMemphis wrote: Fri Sep 02, 2022 1:16 pm I already told you why I wouldn’t support it today. Go back and reread it. Nowhere did I say things should go back. I think I said as much and why. Go back and read.
Again, if you didn't support it then and you wouldn't support it now, that shows the contradiction. You're trying to have it both ways, and I won't let you get by with it. That's bullshit, and you know it.
JoeMemphis

Re: So is this why Trump buried Ivana at his golf course?

Post by JoeMemphis »

gounion wrote: Fri Sep 02, 2022 1:59 pm Again, if you didn't support it then and you wouldn't support it now, that shows the contradiction. You're trying to have it both ways, and I won't let you get by with it. That's bullshit, and you know it.
Not really, some people do depend on ACA for coverage. I don’t support pulling the rug from under people who are already dependent on the program. So no I wouldn’t repeal it now that it is in place unless there is a viable alternative for people who are in the program. That doesn’t mean that I would support ACA in 2010 or in 2022 were it to come up for the first time as the solution to the health care problem.

But speaking of having it both ways, you are the guy who claims that ACA was successful in that it made insurance affordable and bent the cost curve. If that’s true. If it lived up to its billing and achieved its objectives, why is health care, to use your own words, a “disaster”. If it was sooooo successful why the need to replace it. Folks who want it can buy coverage at an affordable price on the exchange. There are subsidies for those who don’t have the means and medical costs, according to you, are under control. Those of us who like the employer based plans we have aren’t being forced into a government program.

So clear up the contradiction, if ACA which was sold as the “solution” is working so great, why do you think health care under ACA is a “disaster” and needs to be replaced by doubling down on the solution that didn’t solve the problem the last time?
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Re: So is this why Trump buried Ivana at his golf course?

Post by gounion »

JoeMemphis wrote: Fri Sep 02, 2022 3:16 pm Not really, some people do depend on ACA for coverage. I don’t support pulling the rug from under people who are already dependent on the program. So no I wouldn’t repeal it now that it is in place unless there is a viable alternative for people who are in the program. That doesn’t mean that I would support ACA in 2010 or in 2022 were it to come up for the first time as the solution to the health care problem.

But speaking of having it both ways, you are the guy who claims that ACA was successful in that it made insurance affordable and bent the cost curve. If that’s true. If it lived up to its billing and achieved its objectives, why is health care, to use your own words, a “disaster”. If it was sooooo successful why the need to replace it. Folks who want it can buy coverage at an affordable price on the exchange. There are subsidies for those who don’t have the means and medical costs, according to you, are under control. Those of us who like the employer based plans we have aren’t being forced into a government program.

So clear up the contradiction, if ACA which was sold as the “solution” is working so great, why do you think health care under ACA is a “disaster” and needs to be replaced by doubling down on the solution that didn’t solve the problem the last time?
Simple, it improved a lot of the worse parts of for-profit health care. Of course you can’t argue with that. But it wasn’t sold as the perfect solution, but a step forward. That’s why you were so scared of it and would never support it.

You can’t say anything bad about it.
JoeMemphis

Re: So is this why Trump buried Ivana at his golf course?

Post by JoeMemphis »

gounion wrote: Fri Sep 02, 2022 3:19 pm Simple, it improved a lot of the worse parts of for-profit health care. Of course you can’t argue with that. But it wasn’t sold as the perfect solution, but a step forward. That’s why you were so scared of it and would never support it.

You can’t say anything bad about it.
I remember how it was sold. You need a refresher.

I never claimed there weren’t parts of it that I agreed with. Overall it didn’t live up to its billing in my opinion or you wouldn’t be here selling a replacement to it. But I’m not the guy looking to replace it. That would be you.

My advice is for you to go sell it in a state your party controls. Why wait on the rest of the nation? Do it where you can. It may be 10 or 20 years before you get another Obama majority in both houses.
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Re: So is this why Trump buried Ivana at his golf course?

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JoeMemphis wrote: Fri Sep 02, 2022 4:21 pm I remember how it was sold. You need a refresher.

I never claimed there weren’t parts of it that I agreed with. Overall it didn’t live up to its billing in my opinion or you wouldn’t be here selling a replacement to it. But I’m not the guy looking to replace it. That would be you.

My advice is for you to go sell it in a state your party controls. Why wait on the rest of the nation? Do it where you can. It may be 10 or 20 years before you get another Obama majority in both houses.
California's legislature elected not to even vote on the issue.

https://www.npr.org/2022/01/31/10771553 ... out-a-vote

My recommendation would be a simple public option - allowing anyone who wants Medicare to pay the cost to enroll themselves into the program. Give people the choice between government health insurance and private health insurance. Give the people the option and let them invest in the program that works best for them.

The government vs private health insurance debate would sort itself out in a few short years.
JoeMemphis

Re: So is this why Trump buried Ivana at his golf course?

Post by JoeMemphis »

Ted wrote: Sat Sep 03, 2022 9:01 am California's legislature elected not to even vote on the issue.

https://www.npr.org/2022/01/31/10771553 ... out-a-vote

My recommendation would be a simple public option - allowing anyone who wants Medicare to pay the cost to enroll themselves into the program. Give people the choice between government health insurance and private health insurance. Give the people the option and let them invest in the program that works best for them.

The government vs private health insurance debate would sort itself out in a few short years.
The government is not and should not be in the business to compete with private companies. Where does that end. What industry is next. Governments job is to regulate the markets. It should stay in its own lane.
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Re: So is this why Trump buried Ivana at his golf course?

Post by carmenjonze »

JoeMemphis wrote: Sat Sep 03, 2022 10:34 am The government is not and should not be in the business to compete with private companies. Where does that end. What industry is next. Governments job is to regulate the markets. It should stay in its own lane.
How many times to people have to tell you this is not “government in competition with private business “?

The same number of times people have to tell your dumb ass that other countries have normal healthcare that doesn’t need to be attempted in the states you hate?

JFC you are the dumbest person on this board.
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