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 Post subject: Bonuses vs. raises
PostPosted: Sun Feb 11, 2018 3:35 pm 
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Companies are pulling their usual bait-and-switch. Trump says that companies will take their big tax cuts and share it with their employees via raises.

Nope.

Union workers understand the difference between bonuses and raises. Companies aren't giving raises. They are giving one-time bonuses, to politically handle their windfall, but they get to keep their tax cuts every year from now on, but the workers only get one hit.

A raise is forever, year after year, and percentage raises compound with future raises.

Just another corporate scam.

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 Post subject: Re: Bonuses vs. raises
PostPosted: Sun Feb 11, 2018 3:49 pm 
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Companies are pulling their usual bait-and-switch. Trump says that companies will take their big tax cuts and share it with their employees via raises.

Nope.

Union workers understand the difference between bonuses and raises. Companies aren't giving raises. They are giving one-time bonuses, to politically handle their windfall, but they get to keep their tax cuts every year from now on, but the workers only get one hit.

A raise is forever, year after year, and percentage raises compound with future raises.

Just another corporate scam.

The bonuses are nice but they serve a secondary purpose of making the company look good in the eyes of their workers and the public. What it doesn't affect is workers with a defined benefits plan (pension) who, in the long run, would do better with even a small or modest wage/salary increase.

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 Post subject: Re: Bonuses vs. raises
PostPosted: Sun Feb 11, 2018 10:03 pm 
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Companies are pulling their usual bait-and-switch. Trump says that companies will take their big tax cuts and share it with their employees via raises.

Nope.

Union workers understand the difference between bonuses and raises. Companies aren't giving raises. They are giving one-time bonuses, to politically handle their windfall, but they get to keep their tax cuts every year from now on, but the workers only get one hit.

A raise is forever, year after year, and percentage raises compound with future raises.

Just another corporate scam.


I saw where CVS has raised their starting pay to I believe $11 an hour, it might have been more. Yesterday I delivered at a Wal-Mart DC in New Braunfels Texas where they had a huge help wanted sign. It advertised $15 and change per hour plus weekend and night differentials.

So starting wages are going up. The only question would be is it because of then tax cut, a hiring market where potential hires are fewer, maybe a combo or maybe something else.

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 Post subject: Re: Bonuses vs. raises
PostPosted: Sun Feb 11, 2018 10:42 pm 
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I saw where CVS has raised their starting pay to I believe $11 an hour, it might have been more. Yesterday I delivered at a Wal-Mart DC in New Braunfels Texas where they had a huge help wanted sign. It advertised $15 and change per hour plus weekend and night differentials.

So starting wages are going up. The only question would be is it because of then tax cut, a hiring market where potential hires are fewer, maybe a combo or maybe something else.

From what I’ve been reading concerning the recent Stock Market decline, part of the reason is because the labor force employers need is almost depleted causing employers to have to raise wages just to attract people to work there. Now, working retail at Walmart doesn’t require a very high degree of skills so if the labor force is contracting wage should be increasing. I wonder if those higher wages Walmart is offering also means those currently working there are getting a raise as well. It wouldn’t do much for morale if someone working there for two years suddenly found out a new employee doing the same job was making more than they were. My brother-in-law was in a similar situation, back in the late 70s, with the company he worked for. He was in their accounting department and they brought in some new people with the same level of experience he had but at a higher wage even through he had bee working there for over three years. When they wouldn’t match his wage to the new hire’s wages he quit and found a better job.

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 Post subject: Re: Bonuses vs. raises
PostPosted: Sun Feb 11, 2018 11:03 pm 
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Fast-food workers pressing for $15 minimum wage, tie fight to civil rights

Quote:
A long campaign to raise wages for fast-food workers to $15 an hour is tying its fight to historical fights for civil rights as protesters plan to rally in Detroit and other cities nationwide on Monday — 50 years after the Memphis sanitation strike.

Detroit fast-food workers are expected to walk off their jobs at about noon on Monday and join with activists from the Poor People's Campaign in solidarity with the ensuing "massive wave of civil disobedience."

A press conference and rally will be held at Martin Luther King Jr. Memorial Park on the corner of West Grand Boulevard and Rosa Parks Boulevard at 12:15 p.m., followed by a march and protest at a local McDonald's.

Detroit City Council President Pro Tem Mary Sheffield will be joining with the Fight for $15 fast food workers, hospital workers, Service Employees International Union Local 1, faith and community allies, according to a news release.

On February 12, 50 years after Memphis sanitation workers went on strike, Local 1 members and fast food workers across the Midwest will honor their legacy! #FightFor15pic.twitter.com/DmU2DtcCS9

— SEIU Local 1 (@SEIULocal1) February 9, 2018................

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 Post subject: Re: Bonuses vs. raises
PostPosted: Sun Feb 11, 2018 11:37 pm 
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Service industries that cannot outsource are facing having to raise wages. Industries of all sorts that can outsource, consolidate operations or introduce more automation will continue to do so.

Engineering is a global worker market due to technology. Some other sorts of work is global in nature such as x-ray, mri, CT scan reading again due to technology. Btw, don’t think that your doc is infallible. Reading “The Undoing Project” by Michael Lewis proves otherwise.

So the concept of a tight worker market is not completely accurate. Certain jobs are tight. Others are not.

And don’t confuse labor with worker. Labor is what the worker does. Productivity increases by workers are rarely shared by capital. In most recent cases it is purely PR. Companies generating profits can share those profits if they desire. Most do not desire.

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 Post subject: Re: Bonuses vs. raises
PostPosted: Mon Feb 12, 2018 1:38 pm 
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Companies are pulling their usual bait-and-switch. Trump says that companies will take their big tax cuts and share it with their employees via raises.

Nope.

Union workers understand the difference between bonuses and raises. Companies aren't giving raises. They are giving one-time bonuses, to politically handle their windfall, but they get to keep their tax cuts every year from now on, but the workers only get one hit.

A raise is forever, year after year, and percentage raises compound with future raises.

Just another corporate scam.
You are right in that its another scam....but I wish all Union negotiators were as savy as you claim. I know of one negotiation where the union negotiators insisted on a bonus, rather than as larger salary increase. (I don't know the reason, I just know this story from the 'management' negotiators side...a person I trust...and I know has employee fairness as one of this persons goals, and that they've helped propose and lobby for laws in their state that would expand health care to the benefit of both employees and employers). I know of another (from the employees perspective) where 'their union' agreed to this type of bonus thing then brought it to employees without giving them an opportunity to discuss the contract. And even when 'normal' raises are reinstated, it never really catches up, since you're at a lower base.


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 Post subject: Re: Bonuses vs. raises
PostPosted: Mon Feb 12, 2018 6:17 pm 
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From what I’ve been reading concerning the recent Stock Market decline, part of the reason is because the labor force employers need is almost depleted causing employers to have to raise wages just to attract people to work there. Now, working retail at Walmart doesn’t require a very high degree of skills so if the labor force is contracting wage should be increasing. I wonder if those higher wages Walmart is offering also means those currently working there are getting a raise as well. It wouldn’t do much for morale if someone working there for two years suddenly found out a new employee doing the same job was making more than they were. My brother-in-law was in a similar situation, back in the late 70s, with the company he worked for. He was in their accounting department and they brought in some new people with the same level of experience he had but at a higher wage even through he had bee working there for over three years. When they wouldn’t match his wage to the new hire’s wages he quit and found a better job.


The Wal-Mart wages were being offered at a DC [distribution center aka warehouse] not at a store. But, I believe WM's starting store wage is now $11 per hour. Also WM truck drivers are pretty much the highest paid in the industry. With first year drivers averaging 82k per year.

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"within weeks of being rid of the likes of you, rid of every fucking one of you,we would begin to see what kind of country this ought to be" Ike Bana 6/14/18


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 Post subject: Re: Bonuses vs. raises
PostPosted: Mon Feb 12, 2018 6:40 pm 
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As the Prisoner noted, bonuses great, no down side. I don't think employees will completely forget the size of their regular paycheck.

Political points go to Trump in a marginal way that I don't think amounts to much. He plays the same old political game but it's really too old and familiar to deceive anyone.

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 Post subject: Re: Bonuses vs. raises
PostPosted: Mon Feb 12, 2018 7:21 pm 
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I saw where CVS has raised their starting pay to I believe $11 an hour, it might have been more. Yesterday I delivered at a Wal-Mart DC in New Braunfels Texas where they had a huge help wanted sign. It advertised $15 and change per hour plus weekend and night differentials.

So starting wages are going up. The only question would be is it because of then tax cut, a hiring market where potential hires are fewer, maybe a combo or maybe something else.


Seven more years, eh glen?

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 Post subject: Re: Bonuses vs. raises
PostPosted: Mon Feb 12, 2018 7:26 pm 
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You are right in that its another scam....but I wish all Union negotiators were as savy as you claim. I know of one negotiation where the union negotiators insisted on a bonus, rather than as larger salary increase. (I don't know the reason, I just know this story from the 'management' negotiators side...a person I trust...and I know has employee fairness as one of this persons goals, and that they've helped propose and lobby for laws in their state that would expand health care to the benefit of both employees and employers). I know of another (from the employees perspective) where 'their union' agreed to this type of bonus thing then brought it to employees without giving them an opportunity to discuss the contract. And even when 'normal' raises are reinstated, it never really catches up, since you're at a lower base.

No, not every negotiator is savvy, for sure. And working stiffs are also easy to take to the cleaners, too. They like that big bonus ( which a big part of goes to taxes), instead of dollars a week. You have to educate the workforce, too. Explain that a thousand bucks in wages is repeated every year, and it compounds as you get more raises. But some folks might have a big bill to pay, or they'd like to go buy that big screen TV...

But most workers will agree, as long as you explain it to them.

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 Post subject: Re: Bonuses vs. raises
PostPosted: Mon Feb 12, 2018 8:35 pm 
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You'd hope. I have to admit, that often times, I'd wish that 'workers' had a larger voice in negotiations. But, I know, few things work as well as they should. So we take the best we can.


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 Post subject: Re: Bonuses vs. raises
PostPosted: Mon Feb 12, 2018 9:32 pm 
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You'd hope. I have to admit, that often times, I'd wish that 'workers' had a larger voice in negotiations. But, I know, few things work as well as they should. So we take the best we can.

Well, it sounds good that they've have a larger voice, but you can't negotiate with a crowd. Most places, the negotiators are elected, a small group - the smaller the better - and they negotiate with the company. They've taken surveys and know what the workers want. Usually, a skilled full-time union negotiator works with the group.

Then the negotiated contract has to be ratified by the workers.

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 Post subject: Re: Bonuses vs. raises
PostPosted: Mon Feb 12, 2018 9:40 pm 
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Yeah...I know how its supposed to work...I've been the chair of collective bargaining committees and spoken to national conferences on collaborative negotiations techniques....but i'm telling you...and you, of course, know this... it doesn't always work to its ideal. (but what does?)

And unfortunately, in my experience, the 'ratification' process is generally pro-forma. And one can make a strong argument that this is how it should be.


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 Post subject: Re: Bonuses vs. raises
PostPosted: Tue Feb 13, 2018 6:13 am 
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Yeah...I know how its supposed to work...I've been the chair of collective bargaining committees and spoken to national conferences on collaborative negotiations techniques....but i'm telling you...and you, of course, know this... it doesn't always work to its ideal. (but what does?)

And unfortunately, in my experience, the 'ratification' process is generally pro-forma. And one can make a strong argument that this is how it should be.

Democracy is always messy, ugly and nasty.

But it's still better than any other system. Our righties much prefer authoritarianism, both at work and in government. The boss/owner class knows best, and the worker should shut up, do what they're told, and accept what the boss deems they're worth.

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 Post subject: Re: Bonuses vs. raises
PostPosted: Tue Feb 13, 2018 1:13 pm 
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duplicate


Last edited by TheFox on Tue Feb 13, 2018 1:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Bonuses vs. raises
PostPosted: Tue Feb 13, 2018 1:18 pm 
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Here's the crux of the conflict. Business is inherently a risk venture. Capitalist try to remove all the risks that is possible. Giving people raises has more risks since it's paid by the profits in the future which are uncertain.

Many businesses fail and don't want to take the risks only the profits. Now capitalist don't have to take risks because they have capital built up to survive, but workers don't have that luxury. Another advantage is that most political leaders are cut in the same mold as business people and therefore more sympathetic to business people, i.e. job creators.

Businesses you can't fault too much, but political leaders can't seem to understand the dynamics of the economy enough to see that it takes both sides to make businesses work. Otherwise, there is no economy.


Last edited by TheFox on Wed Feb 14, 2018 1:53 am, edited 3 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Bonuses vs. raises
PostPosted: Tue Feb 13, 2018 1:25 pm 
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The Republican Party, in its current incarnation, is for big business, not Joe Blow trying to meet a payroll. It's for billionaires. The rest of us are expendable. We're a resource to be exploited and then left for dead.

It's that stark.

A return to the worst conditions of the 19th century.

That is all.

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 Post subject: Re: Bonuses vs. raises
PostPosted: Tue Feb 13, 2018 1:44 pm 
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The Republican Party, in its current incarnation, is for big business, not Joe Blow trying to meet a payroll. It's for billionaires. The rest of us are expendable. We're a resource to be exploited and then left for dead.

It's that stark.

A return to the worst conditions of the 19th century.

That is all.

Not simply the Republicans.

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 Post subject: Re: Bonuses vs. raises
PostPosted: Tue Feb 13, 2018 7:26 pm 
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Here's the crux of the conflict. Business is inherently a risk venture. Capitalist try to remove all the risks that is possible. Giving people raises has more risks since it paid by the profits in the future which are uncertain.

Many businesses fail and don't want to take the risks only the profits. Now capitalist don't have to take risks because they have capital built up to survive, but workers don't have that luxury. Another advantage is that most political leaders are cut in the same mold as business people and therefore more sympathetic to business people, i.e. job creators.

Businesses you can't fault too much, but political leaders can't seem to understand the dynamics of the economy enough to see that it takes both sides to make businesses work. Otherwise, there is no economy.

No, it really isn't risky. It's just that business wants to pay the lowest costs and charge the highest price.

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 Post subject: Re: Bonuses vs. raises
PostPosted: Tue Feb 13, 2018 7:30 pm 
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Or, as Randi Rhodes often puts it, American businesses seem to be big on socializing their losses, but privatizing their profits.

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 Post subject: Re: Bonuses vs. raises
PostPosted: Tue Feb 13, 2018 8:47 pm 
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No, it really isn't risky. It's just that business wants to pay the lowest costs and charge the highest price.

Sure it is risky, and, you are right, business do as much as they are able to eliminate the risks. I ask, if they are not taking a risk, why should they get any profit? Their dream is near a reality. We are told to pray and pay because they are too big to fail. Gee.

Economist we most know of, and are running the country, are supply-side economist, unfortunately. Something that has been proven wrong time and again.

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