The Yes 4 Minneapolis charter amendment, explained

[gounion]

I didn't make a statement indicating that I disagreed with it GoUnion. I said it was a politically destructive position to take. That's what that news paper editorial said about it too.

I have made plenty of statements in the past which are similar to yours about what Black people face, I feel for them, I really do. I can also understand why words like "reform" have been worn out by the past usage, then noting changes, there is no reform.



However that doesn't change the assessment that it's a politically destructive position to take. My position is tempered by the question, do you want Democrats or Republicans to be in charge?

The math is straight forward.

It's politically destructive if they falsely frame what these bills are REALLY about, and demonize it.

If nothing at all is done, then it doesn't really matter WHO is in charge, does it?

I mean, even though NONE of these bills were using the language, it really didn't matter to the right, now, did it?

It's certainly a problem, and hatred of black people is something the right does a really good job of selling. But what WE don't need to do is agree with the false framing the right keeps using. And that's what I see some on this board doing, including you to at least some extent. Blue Dog Dem is all in on that framing.

[carmenjonze]

https://blacklivesmatter.com/defundthepolice/

What does BLM have to do with "Dems," who according to bradman's link should decommission 'defund the police'?

[carmenjonze]

Wait for it ... ..

I have made plenty of statements in the past which are similar to yours about what Black people face, I feel for them, I really do.

Here it comes... ...

I can also ...

Paternalistic white man.

[sam lefthand]

If nothing at all is done, then it doesn't really matter WHO is in charge, does it?

That a factitious argument GoUnion.

The local police force issue is a local issue to each individual place a police force serves.

Where as the national and state wide political structures involve many important issues, and it matters greatly WHO is in charge of them.

The local police funding issue is not one of those national issues. It still matters who is in charge of the local jurisdictions, but it doesn't matter that much to me who is in charge of the New York police. Nor to folks in New York does it matter who is in charge of my counties sheriff department.



We don't have a police force here.

[sam lefthand]

What does BLM have to do with "Dems," who according to bradman's link should decommission 'defund the police'?

I don't know how it is on your planet, but on my planet almost all of the BLM sympathizers are Democrats.



Not all Democrats are BLM, but almost all BLM are Democrats.

[gounion]

That a factitious argument GoUnion.

The local police force issue is a local issue to each individual place a police force serves.

Where as the national and state wide political structures involve many important issues, and it matters greatly WHO is in charge of them.

The local police funding issue is not one of those national issues. It still matters who is in charge of the local jurisdictions, but it doesn't matter that much to me who is in charge of the New York police. Nor to folks in New York does it matter who is in charge of my counties sheriff department.



We don't have a police force here.

I was speaking of the GOP or dems. You said it was causing us to lose elections.

No comment on the main thrust of my post? About the false framing by the right?

[sam lefthand]

I was speaking of the GOP or dems. You said it was causing us to lose elections.

No comment on the main thrust of my post? About the false framing by the right?

You must be talking about someone else, perhaps that editorial if not a real person here.



I said it was a politically destructive position to take. I don't think we've lost elections over it, not yet. But we could in the future if our politicians are not wise about how they handle it.

[gounion]

You must be talking about someone else, perhaps that editorial if not a real person here.



I said it was a politically destructive position to take. I don't think we've lost elections over it, not yet. But we could in the future if our politicians are not wise about how they handle it.

No, I was talking to you. You said you didn’t think the editorial was slanted. But it was - it was the right-wing framing that the bills and people running wanted to get rid of the police completely. That’s false framing.

[carmenjonze]

troll

[carmenjonze]

I was speaking of the GOP or dems. You said it was causing us to lose elections.

No comment on the main thrust of my post? About the false framing by the right?

No Dem even ran on defund the police. Only propagandized cons believe so.

[bradman]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MXy1pRGv8NY
Minneapolis City Council vows to disband Minneapolis Police Department

Disband, scrap, eliminate, terminate, dissolve, removing, replacing, defunding, abolish..........And many likewise words have been used.

A veto proof 9 of the city council members (Dems looking for DFL endorsement.) were for replacing the Mpls police department. This is Powdwerhorn Park in Mpls. somewhere around a month after Floyd was killed....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ovV0jkPj8us
Minneapolis City Council announces intent to disband police department


Ya can't have it both ways. Sure, the official democratic party line does not support defunding. Still, the Dems are guilty by association. i wish it weren't so, but there it is, and the Republicans love it. It's an easy sell for them. In the mean time, the Democrats are getting their asses handed to them because of it. Seems the Dems. didn't get ahead of the messaging from the start, and are still refusing to deal with it now.

Quit giving the Republicans ammo. 2022 and 2024 are at stake.

[Drak]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MXy1pRGv8NY
Minneapolis City Council vows to disband Minneapolis Police Department

Disband, scrap, eliminate, terminate, dissolve, removing, replacing, defunding, abolish..........And many likewise words have been used.

A veto proof 9 of the city council members (Dems looking for DFL endorsement.) were for replacing the Mpls police department. This is Powdwerhorn Park in Mpls. somewhere around a month after Floyd was killed....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ovV0jkPj8us
Minneapolis City Council announces intent to disband police department


Ya can't have it both ways. Sure, the official democratic party line does not support defunding. Still, the Dems are guilty by association. i wish it weren't so, but there it is, and the Republicans love it. It's an easy sell for them. In the mean time, the Democrats are getting their asses handed to them because of it. Seems the Dems. didn't get ahead of the messaging from the start, and are still refusing to deal with it now.

Quit giving the Republicans ammo. 2022 and 2024 are at stake.

You live there, right? Are you doing anything about it?

[bradman]

You live there, right? Are you doing anything about it?

If you look towards the top right hand corner you will see my location. Home of the DFL. The land of HHH and Walter Mondale. i pounded pavement for Wellstone, Amy, and the rest. i was involved in local politics(and to a certain degree still am)and served on our city Charter Commission for years. Most of it i've given up since retirement and passed the touch to a younger DFL generation that i stay in contact with. Just as my elders did for me. Nowadays, it's shop politics. Those that don't have some knowledge of the current political landscape need not enter. Some of the cons have been defunded, abolished, and will never see the inside of my shop again. Is that doing enough?

Are you doing anything about it?

i'm always open for suggestions. What would you like me to do?

[gounion]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MXy1pRGv8NY
Minneapolis City Council vows to disband Minneapolis Police Department

Disband, scrap, eliminate, terminate, dissolve, removing, replacing, defunding, abolish..........And many likewise words have been used.

A veto proof 9 of the city council members (Dems looking for DFL endorsement.) were for replacing the Mpls police department. This is Powdwerhorn Park in Mpls. somewhere around a month after Floyd was killed....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ovV0jkPj8us
Minneapolis City Council announces intent to disband police department


Ya can't have it both ways. Sure, the official democratic party line does not support defunding. Still, the Dems are guilty by association. i wish it weren't so, but there it is, and the Republicans love it. It's an easy sell for them. In the mean time, the Democrats are getting their asses handed to them because of it. Seems the Dems. didn't get ahead of the messaging from the start, and are still refusing to deal with it now.

Quit giving the Republicans ammo. 2022 and 2024 are at stake.

These videos were from June, 2020, less than a month after the George Floyd murders. Anger was still high and understandable. After that, stances were moderated, were they not?

But go ahead, cherry pick. Just be on notice that we see what you're doing.

[bradman]

These videos were from June, 2020, less than a month after the George Floyd murders. Anger was still high and understandable. After that, stances were moderated, were they not?

But go ahead, cherry pick. Just be on notice that we see what you're doing.

Moderated? Is that why the Mpls city council had their asses hand to them a year and a half later?

Here in Minnesota, the Powderhorn Park rally was where defund and abolish started. The defeat of question 2 is where the Dem's should get the clue some of us warned about from the beginning. It won't sell, it won't fly. That's not cherry picking that's just a fact.

[gounion]

Moderated? Is that why the Mpls city council had their asses hand to them a year and a half later?

Here in Minnesota, the Powderhorn Park rally was where defund and abolish started. The defeat of question 2 is where the Dem's should get the clue some of us warned about from the beginning. It won't sell, it won't fly. That's not cherry picking that's just a fact.

Then why is all you got from right after George Floyd? Was Question 2 Defund?

[bradman]

Then why is all you got from right after George Floyd? Was Question 2 Defund?

What do you mean, all i got? There's plenty more. i just pointed out where it started going wrong.

Yes4Mpls. was the organization that was pushing for defunding the police. Question 2 was the second (out of (4?)) ballot questions to vote on. A yes vote on question 2 would have defunded and abolished the police department. imo, if question 2 would have better defined the future role of the Mpls. police department, it just may have passed. Instead, question 2 would only go as far as saying there would be a police department ........"if needed". Because of the lack of clarification, it didn't fly.

[gounion]

What do you mean, all i got? There's plenty more. i just pointed out where it started going wrong.

Yes4Mpls. was the organization that was pushing for defunding the police. Question 2 was the second (out of (4?)) ballot questions to vote on. A yes vote on question 2 would have defunded and abolished the police department. imo, if question 2 would have better defined the future role of the Mpls. police department, it just may have passed. Instead, question 2 would only go as far as saying there would be a police department ........"if needed". Because of the lack of clarification, it didn't fly.

I’d question 2 say “defund the Police?” Yes or no?

[bradman]

I’d question 2 say “defund the Police?” Yes or no?

Don't know for sure what you're getting at...... or.... asking?

[gounion]

Don't know for sure what you're getting at...... or.... asking?

What I’m getting at is you are not only accepting - you’re PUSHING the right-wing framing of the issue. Instead of the reality.

It’s like if you’re supporting abortion rights, but you always term it “killing babies”.

[carmenjonze]

Sure, the official democratic party line does not support defunding.

Please put this in 72pt bold caps and copy/paste it 100 times.

Quit giving the Republicans ammo. 2022 and 2024 are at stake.

Stop spreading fear of your conservative cohorts. We’re not afraid of them, or you.

[carmenjonze]

Moderated? Is that why the Mpls city council had their asses hand to them a year and a half later?

Here in Minnesota, the Powderhorn Park rally was where defund and abolish started. The defeat of question 2 is where the Dem's should get the clue some of us warned about from the beginning. It won't sell, it won't fly. That's not cherry picking that's just a fact.

“The Dems” aren’t running on anything like question 2.

This is straw man logic based in your own world of fear and staying afraid.

[bradman]

What I’m getting at is you are not only accepting - you’re PUSHING the right-wing framing of the issue. Instead of the reality.

It’s like if you’re supporting abortion rights, but you always term it “killing babies”.

i'm pushing reality. The fist step in correcting a problem is recognizing the problem. Defund and abolish is killing future Democratic seats. What i'm accepting is a cold hard fact. The right has been shooting at us over defund and abolish, and we keep giving them ammo.

If i had lived in Mpls i would have voted yes on question 2. And even though i'm agnostic, i would have then prayed Yes4Mpls. and the City Council actually had some kind of game plan for a smooth transition. Because if they did, they sure the hell didn't tell anyone about it.

Instead of abolish, pick a word and i will start using that instead........Some of these are actual words the Mpls City Council used.....
abolish
verb
formally put an end to (a system, practice, or institution).
Similar
put an end to
do away with
get rid of
scrap
end
stop
terminate
eradicate
eliminate
exterminate
destroy
annihilate
stamp out
obliterate
wipe out
extinguish
quash
expunge
extirpate
annul
cancel
invalidate
nullify
void
dissolve
erase
delete
rescind
repeal
revoke
overturn
discontinue
remove
withdraw
retract
countermand
excise
drop
jettison
vitiate
abrogate
axe
ditch
junk
scrub
dump
chop
give something the chop
knock something on the head

[Drak]

Those that don't have some knowledge of the current political landscape need not enter. Some of the cons have been defunded, abolished, and will never see the inside of my shop again. Is that doing enough?


i'm always open for suggestions. What would you like me to do?

The point is, if these truly are local issues, are you doing anything about it? Are you being active about it? Writing letters? Making phone calls? Attending public sessions? Making people aware that defund the police is a GOP op? Etc.? Just curious if you're doing something or just talking on a small message board. I have no idea.

[bradman]

The point is, if these truly are local issues, are you doing anything about it? Are you being active about it? Writing letters? Making phone calls? Attending public sessions? Making people aware that defund the police is a GOP op? Etc.? Just curious if you're doing something or just talking on a small message board. I have no idea.

But for attending public sessions, (i still attend an occasional city council meeting since retirement) all of the above.

About the only important one...........Over the summer i've been having private conversations with our Mayor and a few* council members over pretextual police stops and the trouble they cause. That, and i'm on record there as not wanting traffic fines ending up in our police coffers. i think i'm making some headway on the first one, but the second one doesn't seem to be flying. The plane seems to be stuck on a financial issue if you get what i mean.


*Some council members are to far gone. Not really Trumpers, but still kinda hostile when it comes talking about reshaping police forces. i don't really talk to them unless i have to.