The Yes 4 Minneapolis charter amendment, explained

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Libertas
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Re: The Yes 4 Minneapolis charter amendment, explained

Post by Libertas »

carmenjonze wrote: Mon Nov 15, 2021 12:19 pm Very glad to be openly, flagrantly, proudly so-called judgmental. These colluders with white supremacism are lucky I even counter their posts, at all.
I cant, wont talk to them. I admire those of you who do, I read some of it but to be honest I rarely read what they say and always read what you and Gounion say, etc.

My position is simple, as you know. Either you openly and forcefully denounce trump and the entire GOP (until they denounce trump the entire GOP is to blame, basic math) or you are assisting the coming fascist violence.

Unfortunately there are millions of Americans who would read what I just wrote and have no idea what I am referring to, they bother me almost as much as the cons.

And I dont know how much violence they will be able to inflict, but it is coming for sure. Maybe we will be lucky and it will be only small pockets here and there.

But if you are as informed as those here are, for instance, and still unwilling to denounce and oppose, by default this makes you a part of them and are a physical danger to myself, my family, my friends, the human race.
I sigh in your general direction.
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Re: The Yes 4 Minneapolis charter amendment, explained

Post by carmenjonze »

Libertas wrote: Mon Nov 15, 2021 12:29 pm Either you openly and forcefully denounce trump and the entire GOP (until they denounce trump the entire GOP is to blame, basic math) or you are assisting the coming fascist violence.
I agree. And it's not even the coming fascist violence. The fascist violence is already overtly here in the form of Jan. 6, mosque shootings, Charlottesville, Charleston, the Tree of Life massacre, school shootings, voter suppression in several states.

It is getting a free pass by people like Sam Lefthand and these other board cons, who have always been the ones to facilitate the rise of fascism.
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Re: The Yes 4 Minneapolis charter amendment, explained

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carmenjonze wrote: Mon Nov 15, 2021 1:24 pm I agree. And it's not even the coming fascist violence. The fascist violence is already overtly here in the form of Jan. 6, mosque shootings, Charlottesville, Charleston, the Tree of Life massacre, school shootings, voter suppression in several states.

It is getting a free pass by people like Sam Lefthand and these other board cons, who have always been the ones to facilitate the rise of fascism.
Great point, i.e. the violence so far is not enough to have them act like there is a real issue to deal with and oppose it accordingly.

Thus my belief NO LEVEL of violence will.
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Re: The Yes 4 Minneapolis charter amendment, explained

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Libertas wrote: Mon Nov 15, 2021 1:26 pmI cant, wont talk to them. I admire those of you who do, I read some of it but to be honest I rarely read what they say and always read what you and Gounion say, etc.
Well, I listen to what you say, too.
Great point, i.e. the violence so far is not enough to have them act like there is a real issue to deal with and oppose it accordingly.

Thus my belief NO LEVEL of violence will.
You're right about that. They're encouraged by and plan to benefit from the violence. We know this because of the extreme levels of violence they were willing to accept against a Black person just trying to vote.

They have never opposed it. They're only opposed those of us who oppose it. They perceive us as a threat to their old order. Well, I don't care.
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Re: The Yes 4 Minneapolis charter amendment, explained

Post by Bludogdem »

bradman wrote: Sun Nov 14, 2021 9:56 am https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MXy1pRGv8NY
Minneapolis City Council vows to disband Minneapolis Police Department

Disband, scrap, eliminate, terminate, dissolve, removing, replacing, defunding, abolish..........And many likewise words have been used.

A veto proof 9 of the city council members (Dems looking for DFL endorsement.) were for replacing the Mpls police department. This is Powdwerhorn Park in Mpls. somewhere around a month after Floyd was killed....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ovV0jkPj8us
Minneapolis City Council announces intent to disband police department


Ya can't have it both ways. Sure, the official democratic party line does not support defunding. Still, the Dems are guilty by association. i wish it weren't so, but there it is, and the Republicans love it. It's an easy sell for them. In the mean time, the Democrats are getting their asses handed to them because of it. Seems the Dems. didn't get ahead of the messaging from the start, and are still refusing to deal with it now.

Quit giving the Republicans ammo. 2022 and 2024 are at stake.
There is, however, much opportunity for the gop to create collateral damage next year. Expect the gop primaries to be an internecine war. Trump v the anti-trump. Expect a lot of foot shooting video and audio. May well be enough to neutralize defund.
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Re: The Yes 4 Minneapolis charter amendment, explained

Post by carmenjonze »

Green Dogs wrote: Mon Nov 15, 2021 5:24 pm There is, however, much opportunity for the gop to create collateral damage next year. Expect the gop primaries to be an internecine war. Trump v the anti-trump. Expect a lot of foot shooting video and audio. May well be enough to neutralize defund.
Better obey what the angry, ignorant conservative whites around here want!

Or else the Republicans win!

:roll:
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Re: The Yes 4 Minneapolis charter amendment, explained

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Bludogdem wrote: Mon Nov 15, 2021 5:24 pm There is, however, much opportunity for the gop to create collateral damage next year. Expect the gop primaries to be an internecine war. Trump v the anti-trump. Expect a lot of foot shooting video and audio. May well be enough to neutralize defund.
Neutralize their own op? Cool story.
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Re: The Yes 4 Minneapolis charter amendment, explained

Post by bradman »

Bludogdem wrote: Mon Nov 15, 2021 5:24 pm There is, however, much opportunity for the gop to create collateral damage next year. Expect the gop primaries to be an internecine war. Trump v the anti-trump. Expect a lot of foot shooting video and audio. May well be enough to neutralize defund.
i like it when something is put such as that. It doesn't stain the conversation.

All i can offer is hope. The Dem's may be able to survive the Rittenhouse verdict, but if the Arbery verdict goes the wrong way all bets are off. GOP battle or not.
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Re: The Yes 4 Minneapolis charter amendment, explained

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People like bradman, Sam Lefthand, ted, Greengrass, think this is some abstract issue about winning elections, because that's all that even remotely affects them.

It's part of their entitled, supremacist complex to sit from their lofty perch and tell people this issue actually affects, what is best for everyone, even knowing they're just parroting Republican talking points.

They are today's equivalent of MLK's white moderates who say "not now, wait until we are ready."
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Re: The Yes 4 Minneapolis charter amendment, explained

Post by Libertas »

carmenjonze wrote: Mon Nov 15, 2021 6:32 pm People like bradman, Sam Lefthand, ted, Greengrass, think this is some abstract issue about winning elections, because that's all that even remotely affects them.

It's part of their entitled, supremacist complex to sit from their lofty perch and tell people this issue actually affects, what is best for everyone, even knowing they're just parroting Republican talking points.

They are today's equivalent of MLK's white moderates who say "not now, wait until we are ready."
Thanks for this, I read that comment and I wasnt sure what the topic was. So removed from the reality of the world of others.

So if these 3 murderers get off that means the GOP wins. I guess it also means really bad days for the victims families who were robbed of justice, eh!
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Re: The Yes 4 Minneapolis charter amendment, explained

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bradman wrote: Mon Nov 15, 2021 6:30 pm i like it when something is put such as that. It doesn't stain the conversation.

All i can offer is hope. The Dem's may be able to survive the Rittenhouse verdict, but if the Arbery verdict goes the wrong way all bets are off. GOP battle or not.

Hope? Not sure how you're offering hope. Not sure what murder trials should have to do with Dems but if you want to push the messaging in that direction I'll offer that it's not helping. Same with attaching defund the police to them.
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Re: The Yes 4 Minneapolis charter amendment, explained

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Drak wrote: Mon Nov 15, 2021 6:35 pm Hope? Not sure how you're offering hope. Not sure what murder trials should have to do with Dems but if you want to push the messaging in that direction I'll offer that it's not helping. Same with attaching defund the police to them.
I think it means if these horrible murderers get off it means we can look forward to losing in 2022 because it means they really aren't guilty and we were wrong to want them to be found guilty, something like that. Remarkable how far this country has gone in the toilet and how quickly.

But fuck them big time, we will win, they will lose. Fascism does not get to win.
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Re: The Yes 4 Minneapolis charter amendment, explained

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Drak wrote: Mon Nov 15, 2021 6:35 pm Hope? Not sure how you're offering hope. Not sure what murder trials should have to do with Dems but if you want to push the messaging in that direction I'll offer that it's not helping. Same with attaching defund the police to them.
What do you think i meant by this Drak?
i like it when something is put such as that. It doesn't stain the conversation.
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Re: The Yes 4 Minneapolis charter amendment, explained

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bradman wrote: Mon Nov 15, 2021 7:16 pm What do you think i meant by this Drak?

Now if you were to say, "Holy shit, the GOP is a cult beholden to a deranged mad man who attempted a coup d'etat and they're trying to destroy democracy!" then I'd say that messaging is more accurate and helpful than blaming dems for things out of their control, like GOP ops and murder trials.
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Re: The Yes 4 Minneapolis charter amendment, explained

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Drak wrote: Mon Nov 15, 2021 7:17 pm Now if you were to say, "Holy shit, the GOP is a cult beholden to a deranged mad man who attempted a coup d'etat and they're trying to destroy democracy!" then I'd say that messaging is more accurate and helpful than blaming dems for things out of their control, like GOP ops and murder trials.
Ya, that'd be to much like lock step.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MyjeE7rmO2k
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Re: The Yes 4 Minneapolis charter amendment, explained

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bradman wrote: Mon Nov 15, 2021 6:30 pm i like it when something is put such as that. It doesn't stain the conversation.
White conservatism is the stain. Both of you are in lockstep with white conservatism.
All i can offer is hope.
Except, all you've got is fear of your cop friends.

Well, we're not afraid of them.
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Re: The Yes 4 Minneapolis charter amendment, explained

Post by carmenjonze »

Drak wrote: Mon Nov 15, 2021 6:35 pm Hope? Not sure how you're offering hope. Not sure what murder trials should have to do with Dems but if you want to push the messaging in that direction I'll offer that it's not helping. Same with attaching defund the police to them.
These people are using old-fashioned politcal smear tactics. It's a way of calling "defund the police" the socialists and the commies and the niggers. They more they're challenged, the more desperate they get.

You better roll over for Republican legal norms! Or else the Republicans win! The north better not say anything about slavery! Let sleeping dogs lie!

What's funny to me is that these clowns think nobody has ever seen these tactics, before.
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Re: The Yes 4 Minneapolis charter amendment, explained

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bradman wrote: Mon Nov 15, 2021 7:37 pm Ya, that'd be to much like lock step.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MyjeE7rmO2k

The point is, The Democratic Party IS the party of the rule of law. They ARE the party fighting for justice, freedom, democracy and support for the American institutions that keep America lawful, free and safe. That's what's important, instead of pushing messaging about the GOP op "defund the police" and murder trials. I get that this is a smallish message board, but IMO, messaging on the Internet is important.
Last edited by Drak on Mon Nov 15, 2021 8:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The Yes 4 Minneapolis charter amendment, explained

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carmenjonze wrote: Mon Nov 15, 2021 7:57 pm These people are using old-fashioned politcal smear tactics. It's a way of calling "defund the police" the socialists and the commies and the niggers. They more they're challenged, the more desperate they get.

You better roll over for Republican legal norms! Or else the Republicans win! The north better not say anything about slavery! Let sleeping dogs lie!

What's funny to me is that these clowns think nobody has ever seen these tactics, before.
I notice a lot of critique, blame and downing about the Democratic party and very little about the party trying to destroy America.
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Re: The Yes 4 Minneapolis charter amendment, explained

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Drak wrote: Mon Nov 15, 2021 8:01 pm I notice a lot of critique, blame and downing about the Democratic party and very little about the party trying to destroy America.
That is how you know how full of shit all of them here are.

Some of them are just right-wingers who are pretending otherwise and some are center right democrats who simply think they know better than any POC or especially someone very liberal who speaks their mind and who correctly predicts just how terrible their friends on the right really are.

Some of the predictions and comments made only a year ago by myself and others, considered to be OUTRAGEOUS at the time, are now seen as accepted norms for how bad the GOP is.


I didnt want our current state to come true, but I was sure it would. I have dealt with them my whole life, then I watched bush and cheney and rummy destroy the rule of law and truth. Nothing good was gonna come.
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Re: The Yes 4 Minneapolis charter amendment, explained

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bradman wrote: Mon Nov 15, 2021 7:16 pm What do you think i meant by this Drak?
It's hilarious that you guys actually repeat the propaganda that this can be "reformed."

Whistleblower featured in USA TODAY 'Behind the Blue Wall' series ousted from police union - USA Today
Esqueda told USA TODAY that he’s become a pariah among his coworkers since July 2020, when he shared with a television reporter footage from January of that year showing how officers treated a handcuffed Black man in medical distress. Officers slapped Eric Lurry, restricted his airway and shoved a baton in his mouth hours before his death. Esqueda faces up to 20 years in prison after department officials opened a criminal investigation into his actions and prosecutors charged him with four counts of official misconduct.

Members of the Joliet Police Officer’s Association on Wednesday voted 35-1 to expel Esqueda, a move first reported by The Herald-Ledger newspaper in Joliet. In a letter informing him of the impending vote last month, union leaders described his conduct as “reprehensible.” The letter did not offer specifics on what actions from Esqueda prompted the vote.

But Esqueda on Thursday said he believes the move is yet another act of retaliation from Joliet's police leadership, who since the USA TODAY story have found themselves under an Illinois Attorney General’s office investigation and a department shakeup that led the city manager last month to fire Chief Dawn Malec.

“They all wanted me charged, they all want me gone, and by doing this, it’s self-gratification for them,” Esqueda said of the union’s vote. “And after everything that’s happened, do I really want to be associated with them?”
Can't reform this.
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Re: The Yes 4 Minneapolis charter amendment, explained

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Drak wrote: Mon Nov 15, 2021 8:01 pm I notice a lot of critique, blame and downing about the Democratic party and very little about the party trying to destroy America.
Well, they're saying nothing about the Republican Party, because they are the Republican Party, and require of everyone else the so-called civility and kowtowing deference they give that party.

These recruiters support not only cops who shoot and kill unarmed people, they support white-nationalist vigilantes like Kyle Rittenhouse who do the same thing.

Do what the Republican Party wants!

Or else the Republicans will win!!

:roll: :problem:
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Re: The Yes 4 Minneapolis charter amendment, explained

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https://www.yahoo.com/news/law-enforcem ... 00564.html
As law enforcement begins to enlist social workers for crisis situations, police see positives, but training needed
Deanna Weniger, Pioneer Press, St. Paul, Minn.
Nov. 26—Hector Matascastillo has a chip in his front tooth that serves as a reminder of where he was nearly two decades ago — suicidal and desperate for help.

During a January blizzard in 2004, Matascastillo, an Army Ranger veteran, awoke from a dissociative flashback to find himself sitting in the snow on his front step, facing a line of Lakeville police officers with guns drawn, pointed at him.

Through the haze of post-traumatic stress disorder, he thought they were enemy combatants. He credits the officers for not firing at him as he struggled to lay down his own unloaded weapons. He chipped his tooth during that time practicing his own suicide.

Fast forward 17 years.

In September, Matascastillo, now a psychotherapist, was on the other side this time. He was standing with Dakota County South Metro SWAT officers in a stairwell in a West St. Paul apartment complex facing a suicidal man with a knife, talking to him about all the reasons he should choose life.

The man surrendered after three hours, and the incident serves as a positive example of what can happen when police and social workers team up. Departments treading this mostly uncharted territory have found training for embedding social workers to be scarce and have taken to handcrafting programs to meet their needs.

"There isn't a formal training for social workers being embedded," Matascastillo said. "It's been kind of a mess, actually. My fear is that eventually social workers are going to get themselves into a jam that they can't get out of."
+
In Ramsey County, plans for law enforcement to partner with social workers were in motion nearly five years before the murder of George Floyd pushed the topic to the headlines.

"Between 2006 and 2015, calls for mental-health-related incidents doubled," said Sgt. Justin Tiffany with the St. Paul Police Department. "We knew that there was going to need to be a response on the law enforcement side as to how do we best mitigate some of those calls and connect them with appropriate services."

St. Paul police have three embedded social workers in their Community Outreach and Stabilization program.

The Maplewood Police Department began putting together a mental health outreach team in 2018 which partnered specially trained officers with community paramedics. As they began to do their work, they found that an embedded social worker was needed. This month they hired a second one.

Civil unrest and the COVID pandemic exacerbated mental instability for many. Matascastillo said the public's issues are affecting first responders and therapists.
+
In the last quarter, Maplewood police dealt with 200 people who were experiencing some sort of crisis. Of those, 117 were mental health related, 54 were substance abuse, 18 were medical, 13 were self-care or vulnerability issues, 11 were housing and nine were relationship-based contacts.

In the last three years St. Paul police have seen more than 1,400 referrals to community services and mental health resources. Within the last six months, the department launched a recovery access program which connects people with chemical health issues. That program has helped 60 people so far.

"Having an embedded social worker partnering with public safety, we are able to address and solve so many community issues and needs that we've never been able to do before," Dugas said. "The positives have been overwhelming."
+
But what about the calls in which the person is armed and threatening to harm others?

Matascastillo said that's where policymakers need to understand that while police officers may not all have crisis negotiating skills, social workers don't usually have tactical skills.

For Matascastillo, when he was standing in the stairwell last September talking to the man armed with a knife, he was not standing there alone. He was flanked by shielded SWAT team officers. SWAT was there to make sure Matascastillo didn't get hurt and to intervene if necessary. He said he was in awe watching the officers work.

"Those guys are amazing," he said. "I really respect them."

Maplewood has taken precautions to protect their social workers...........
Hennepin County and the Mpls. Police department had a programs like these. C.O.P.E. i think it was called. Funding for it was cut shortly after Floyds death.
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Re: The Yes 4 Minneapolis charter amendment, explained

Post by gounion »

Ya'know, Brad, back when I was a kid, there was a show called Emergency, which I always liked to watch. Although it was fictionalized, it was a true-ish account of a new type of rescue worker. Used to be, they had ambulance drivers. They would pick up a victim, no matter what condition, and take them to the hospital. Didn't do anything for them. They would often die on the way there. They were not trained for, nor did they offer, any medical care at all on the way.

Doctors realized that a lot of people that might have been saved by some medical care on the way were dying needlessly. So they gave some firemen training in basic first aid care and use of machinery to save people. They would radio vitals to the hospital, where a doctor would tell them what to do.

Thus we got paramedics. A system that is important to this day.

So, what if we did the same thing, train people in social science as well as policing, thus a new hybrid of cop/social worker who is trained to deal in such situations? Yes, they'd be an armed officer, but not a fucking storm trooper as cops are now, someone who is a problem solver who can de-escalate a situation instead of bragging about how many asses they got to kick on duty today?

The right pretends this MUST be an either-or thing, and it doesn't. We just have to approach the situation as adults that can solve problems.
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Re: The Yes 4 Minneapolis charter amendment, explained

Post by carmenjonze »

bradman wrote: Sun Nov 28, 2021 7:53 am Hennepin County and the Mpls. Police department had a programs like these. C.O.P.E. i think it was called. Funding for it was cut shortly after Floyds death.
Link?
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