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PostPosted: Sun Oct 21, 2018 8:17 am 
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Trump Administration Eyes Defining Transgender Out of Existence
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/10/21/us/p ... &smtyp=cur

WASHINGTON — The Trump administration is considering narrowly defining gender as a biological, immutable condition determined by genitalia at birth, the most drastic move yet in a governmentwide effort to roll back recognition and protections of transgender people under federal civil rights law.

A series of decisions by the Obama administration loosened the legal concept of sex in federal programs, including in education and health care, recognizing sex largely as an individual’s choice — and prompting fights over bathrooms, dormitories, single-sex programs and other arenas where gender was once seen as a simple concept. Conservatives, especially evangelical Christians, were incensed.

Now the Department of Health and Human Services is spearheading an effort to establish a legal definition of sex under Title IX, the federal civil rights law that bans gender discrimination in education programs that receive government financial assistance, according to a memo obtained by The New York Times.

The department argued in its memo that key government agencies needed to adopt an explicit and uniform definition of gender as determined “on a biological basis that is clear, grounded in science, objective and administrable.” The agency’s proposed definition would define sex as either male or female, unchangeable, and determined by the genitals that a person is born with, according to a draft reviewed by The Times. Any dispute about one’s sex would have to be clarified using genetic testing.

“Sex means a person’s status as male or female based on immutable biological traits identifiable by or before birth,” the department proposed in the memo, which was drafted and has been circulating since last spring. “The sex listed on a person’s birth certificate, as originally issued, shall constitute definitive proof of a person’s sex unless rebutted by reliable genetic evidence.”

The new definition would essentially eradicate federal recognition of the estimated 1.4 million Americans who have opted to recognize themselves — surgically or otherwise — as a gender other than the one they were born into.

“This takes a position that what the medical community understands about their patients — what people understand about themselves — is irrelevant because the government disagrees,” said Catherine E. Lhamon, who led the Education Department’s Office for Civil Rights in the Obama administration and helped write transgender guidance that is being undone.

The move would be the most significant of a series of maneuvers, large and small, to exclude the population from civil rights protections and roll back the Obama administration’s more fluid recognition of gender identity. The Trump administration has sought to bar transgender people from serving in the military and has legally challenged civil rights protections for the group embedded in the nation’s health care law.

Several agencies have withdrawn Obama-era policies that recognized gender identity in schools, prisons and homeless shelters. The administration even tried to remove questions about gender identity from the 2020 census and a national survey of elderly citizens.

[snip][end]

I love it. They call what they are doing "scientific" while
a) ignoring the definition every scientific publication uses of gender ... which is NOT the same thing as biological sex
b) essentially ignoring the factual, scientifically real existence of trans-sexual and intersex people
c) ignoring what the medical community actually says about gender identity and where it "lives" (hint - in your brain, not in your genitalia)
d) going to now force people to produce birth certificates and DNA tests to assert their rights ... I guess again in the name of "small government"
e) reifying essentialism (google it) as the law of the land

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 21, 2018 9:46 am 
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Absolutely. Donald will decide everybody's legal gender based on which set of parts we got at birth. I'm just not sure how he might define somebody who was born with both sets of parts. I'm thinking he calls them...MUTANT!!!!!

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 21, 2018 10:13 am 
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Donald will tell you what gender you are, just show him your parts. We know he likes a hands on test of the lady parts. And he can tell if you're really Native or not just by looking, Donald has the sense.

Well, I have always felt the sociological message behind the X-Men films is basically about this.

We may not have people who can fly, shoot beams from their eyes, or teleport ... but we do have people who are different from each other.

The left handed, those of different sexual orientation, trans people, people of different skin color, the autistic ... we could keep going.

Like Storm said in The Last Stand ... "Cure me? What's wrong with me?"

There's this social need to put people in either/or binary boxes. Heaven help you if you don't fit neatly in box #1 or box #2 when it comes to gender. And, citizen, use the right bathroom, dammit.

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 21, 2018 10:19 am 
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Absolutely. Donald will decide everybody's legal gender based on which set of parts we got at birth. I'm just not sure how he might define somebody who was born with both sets of parts. I'm thinking he calls them...MUTANT!!!!!

Image


He will. But I doubt he will cast the insult "muntant," he'll use another one. Worse.

This issue touches home and is going to be long drawn out and difficult. :(




The bathroom is the part of the issue which can be isolated and resolved to the satisfaction of most parties, and it's the part which is generating the most reaction from the right, which is wrong.

The bathroom issue is created in part by a cost savings measure which is a long established design feature of our public buildings. That of common stall design. A feed lot herd solution in architecture.

Instead of a large room with partially divided stalls, build little one person handicapped accessible rooms. Change the architecture so society doesn't have to attempt to enforce a raft of policies over which the public is currently divided.

It would also solve much of the day to day bathroom policing issues operators of those buildings face. At the school I went to the vice principal's job description included policing the bathrooms, an activity which seemed to take up about a third of day.

I think a cost analysis study which includes the cost of riding herd on the public herd who use the bathrooms as well as all the other cost factors would show a large benefit in general to adopting an architectural solution.


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 21, 2018 10:28 am 
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The bathroom issue is the front and center one in people's arguments, Sam. Unfortunately, what the admin seems poised to do goes much further.

Currently, civil rights measures say you can't discriminate on the basis of sex - personally I would prefer if they say you can't do it on the basis of gender, but, they say what they say.

The admin is arguing this does not cover sexual orientation. OK, they are not the first. So, no protection for teh gayz.

They are also arguing this does not cover gender identity. So if the Army won't take you for being trans, or for that matter a private employer won't hire you, ... no protection.

They are further arguing that apparently if you feel you have been discriminated against on the basis of sex, you may need to "prove" what sex you are with DNA tests and equipment checks. Again, because apparently those sneaky trans people, who need to be fixed.

That is the reductio ad absurdum essentialism reaches.

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 21, 2018 10:48 am 
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The bathroom issue is the front and center one in people's arguments, Sam. Unfortunately, what the admin seems poised to do goes much further.

Currently, civil rights measures say you can't discriminate on the basis of sex - personally I would prefer if they say you can't do it on the basis of gender, but, they say what they say.

The admin is arguing this does not cover sexual orientation. OK, they are not the first. So, no protection for teh gayz.

They are also arguing this does not cover gender identity. So if the Army won't take you for being trans, or for that matter a private employer won't hire you, ... no protection.

They are further arguing that apparently if you feel you have been discriminated against on the basis of sex, you may need to "prove" what sex you are with DNA tests and equipment checks. Again, because apparently those sneaky trans people, who need to be fixed.

That is the reductio ad absurdum essentialism reaches.


What the admin seems poised to do is fling poo at the election as a last ditch effort on what has become "the" election eve.

I think this is one of his stunts. I also think it will be held up if not thrown out in court. He had already suspended the administrations effective enforcement . That stuff left the room when Trump walked in.

:(




This is one of those things Kamala Harris can fix on day one. Five minutes after arriving. :)


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 21, 2018 11:06 am 
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2021 is 3 years off, Sam, In the meantime?

Two pieces of recommended reading, students.

The difference between sex and gender,
https://www.scienceabc.com/eyeopeners/w ... ender.html

To summarize, sex is based on your biology (chromosomes, anatomy, hormones) ... gender on cultural roles assigned to you by your society on what is considered normative based on what appears to be your sex.

You know what would fix this problem? Change one word in many of these civil rights laws from the 60s so that they change "shall not discriminate based on sex" to "shall not discriminate based on gender" and IMHO the problem is solved. (Yes, I know this admin is unlikely to cooperate.)

As Ike said, there are people called intersex. Hermaphrodites, androgynes ... they are indeed born that way. Donald I guess in the name of science :roll: wants to deny they exist, too.

Many cultures have third or fourth genders.
See: The Hijra in India, or the Winkte or Two-Spirits among the Lakota (commonly called, though I would prefer this name not be used, "berdache") as well as so-called "Warrior Women".
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_gender

You can say "there are only two genders in American culture" and I guess because unlike India, etc. we don't have names for the people outside of those two cultural boxes, we call them "transgender". BTW people from these other cultures live among us. Whose existence appears to once again be being nullified.

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 21, 2018 11:16 am 
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He will. But I doubt he will cast the insult "muntant," he'll use another one. Worse.

This issue touches home and is going to be long drawn out and difficult. :(




The bathroom is the part of the issue which can be isolated and resolved to the satisfaction of most parties, and it's the part which is generating the most reaction from the right, which is wrong.

The bathroom issue is created in part by a cost savings measure which is a long established design feature of our public buildings. That of common stall design. A feed lot herd solution in architecture.

Instead of a large room with partially divided stalls, build little one person handicapped accessible rooms. Change the architecture so society doesn't have to attempt to enforce a raft of policies over which the public is currently divided.

It would also solve much of the day to day bathroom policing issues operators of those buildings face. At the school I went to the vice principal's job description included policing the bathrooms, an activity which seemed to take up about a third of day.

I think a cost analysis study which includes the cost of riding herd on the public herd who use the bathrooms as well as all the other cost factors would show a large benefit in general to adopting an architectural solution.


Why do you and Joe Memphis insist on making these issues so much more complicated than they are? The problem is not that complicated, Sam. The problem, the only problem, is that the country is half full of assholes. It's not a fixable problem in the short term. The only fix is in the long term and that is only a hope...that over a number of generations, enough of the offspring of the country are able to reject that asshole nature of their parents and extended families...and a significant percentage of the country who are assholes just fucking die off. What will be left are liberal and progressive minded non-assholes...or at least semi-assholes, since I find a majortiy of the people I have run into in my life so far, regardless of cultural/political ideology, are at a minimum, self-absorbed, self-indulgent, semi-assholes.

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 21, 2018 11:27 am 
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2021 is 3 years off, Sam, In the meantime?

Two pieces of recommended reading, students.

The difference between sex and gender,
https://www.scienceabc.com/eyeopeners/w ... ender.html

To summarize, sex is based on your biology (chromosomes, anatomy, hormones) ... gender on cultural roles assigned to you by your society on what is considered normative based on what appears to be your sex.

You know what would fix this problem? Change one word in many of these civil rights laws from the 60s so that they change "shall not discriminate based on sex" to "shall not discriminate based on gender" and IMHO the problem is solved. (Yes, I know this admin is unlikely to cooperate.)

As Ike said, there are people called intersex. Hermaphrodites, androgynes ... they are indeed born that way. Donald I guess in the name of science :roll: wants to deny they exist, too.

Many cultures have third or fourth genders.
See: The Hijra in India, or the Winkte or Two-Spirits among the Lakota (commonly called, though I would prefer this name not be used, "berdache") as well as so-called "Warrior Women".
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_gender

You can say "there are only two genders in American culture" and I guess because unlike India, etc. we don't have names for the people outside of those two cultural boxes, we call them "transgender". BTW people from these other cultures live among us. Whose existence appears to once again be being nullified.


Leave it to the confederates and we would have two gender identifiers under the umbrella of the great American identifier...white christian. So in their view of the country they want (the world as well of course) we will have a class of white christian boys and an underclass of white christian girls. That's the structure that white American christian conservatives want. Everybody else just needs to get the fuck out.

To go back to Zowie's dream of more gentility and a return to the concept of the "loyal opposition"...those days are gone forever. Those days began getting gone forever during the war in Vietnam. What we have now is a pretty predictable cultural development of the two sides in the war for the culture. White christian confederate bigots and everybody else. The former is losing ground pretty rapidly, and estimates are it will be in the minority by 2040 or so. Too late for me, eh? Of course that is only happening as long as the white christian confederates fail at their attempt to rid the country of everybody but them.

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 21, 2018 11:34 am 
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They're losing.

Seriously, I don't want this hung around my neck. It was an idea I had that wasn't well accepted when I floated it. It has nothing to do with who I am.

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 21, 2018 11:55 am 
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Why do you and Joe Memphis insist on making these issues so much more complicated than they are? The problem is not that complicated, Sam. The problem, the only problem, is that the country is half full of assholes. It's not a fixable problem in the short term. The only fix is in the long term and that is only a hope...that over a number of generations, enough of the offspring of the country are able to reject that asshole nature of their parents and extended families...and a significant percentage of the country who are assholes just fucking die off. What will be left are liberal and progressive minded non-assholes...or at least semi-assholes, since I find a majortiy of the people I have run into in my life so far, regardless of cultural/political ideology, are at a minimum, self-absorbed, self-indulgent, semi-assholes.


Ike what you just said doesn't make a lick of sense.

One, I make things as complicated as they need to be in order to include the necessary relevant information, and have at my disposal a widest array of options to work with.

Two, you say "the only problem, is that the country is half full of assholes." When it comes to being able to access options to attempt a solution in place of having the only option being to rail at it, your's is prime example. It has the effect of smothering the issue under a blanket of coarse hair. That being a reference to Jewish men wearing coarse prickly hair shirts against their skin for God. Mortify their flesh to show him piety for crying out loud.

Three, what the fuck was that which followed that part about the assholes? I encountered it and reacted to it like I would react to vomit. It was an unpleasant encounter Ike.

:(


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 21, 2018 5:47 pm 
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This is how you earn the nickname #firsttheycamefor

I think this is one of his stunts.


For the people it actually targets and affects, it's not a stunt or other kind of novelty. It's the continuation of a set of policies designed not simply to discriminate and usurp trans citizens of civil and human rights, but define them out of the populace.

This includes close friends of mine, and also to an extent myself, because there is a lot about me that is gender nonconforming. So this is not an abstraction to ponder, it affects the lives of people you know.

Plus, as an adopted adult, I consider everything on my birth certificate is a state-based fraud, since said document claims my adoptive parents are my birth parents. :? :problem:

Anyway,

Quote:
I also think it will be held up if not thrown out in court.


I wonder if you're aware of the organizations that are in a position to actually bring this to court. Maybe you are or maybe you aren't, but for those that aren't, here is a partial list:

National Center for Transgender Equality

Lambda Legal

Transgender Law Center

Transgender Legal Defense & Education Fund

National Center for Lesbian Rights

FORGE

InterACT

It takes resources to challenge the federal government. Please donate to these organizations if you're able.

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 21, 2018 6:14 pm 
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This is how you earn the nickname #firsttheycamefor


"... , it affects the lives of people you know."


Damn straight it affects the lives of people I know.

:|

You like doing nicknames? How about Carmen Sandiego? Where in the World Is Carmen Sandiego?

You get to wear Men in Black sunglasses. :)


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 21, 2018 6:26 pm 
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Damn straight it affects the lives of people I know.


Then you ought to quit being defensive and begin paying attention.

#WeWontBeErased
#TransIsBeautiful
#TransRightsAreHumanRights

This latest floating of detrimental public policy is not a stunt or a novelty. I get that you don't take talk about civil rights struggles seriously, but this is both a civil and human rights issue.

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 21, 2018 6:44 pm 
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Carmen your thing is bitching about people and things and my thing it fixing things rather than attempting to change people which is near impossible to do.

You're bitching about my failings for not having matched your bitching when if I did that I wouldn't have time or energy to think about how those things could be repaired.

:|

There's no pleasing you. So I might as well do as I please.

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 21, 2018 6:57 pm 
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Carmen your thing is bitching about people and things and my thing it fixing things rather than attempting to change people which is near impossible to do.

You're bitching about my failings for not having matched your bitching when if I did that I wouldn't have time or energy to think about how those things could be repaired.

:|

There's no pleasing you. So I might as well do as I please.

:)


Yes, as already stated, this latest news story isn't about what you believe to be some stunt. It's one of many measures either taken or floated by this administration against trans citizens, who are among the most socially-vulnerable demographics in our country's history.

I don't really care if firsttheycamefor's like you think it's mere bitching to say so.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 22, 2018 12:15 pm 
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This Out.com article has been blowing up my feeds this morning. Chase Strangio is a trans lawyer at the ACLU. There was a major rally in Washington Square, NYC last night.

Hell No to the Memo: 7 Action Items to Protect Trans and GNC People

Quote:
Contribute to bailout funds. So much of this kind of systemic discrimination means that trans people, especially those of color, are policed and incarcerated. We must join mass bailouts to get our community back onto the streets to fight with us — and so we can fight for them.

Action item: Donate to bailout funds like: Bronx Freedom Fund, The Lorena Borjas Community Fund, Massachusetts Bail Fund, Chicago Bail Fund, Tranzmission Prison Project, TGIJP.

Action item: Donate to funds supporting trans immigrants. A list can be found here.

Attention, cis folks: Call your people and have conversations. Ask your friends to share articles or videos written or produced by trans people, so we can boost their messages. Educate yourself to make sure you’re challenging the notion that there is a binary and coherent notion of “biological sex." Make sure your family understands that trans liberation is an integral part of the LGBTQ+ community, and supporting gay marriage was just one facet of LGBTQ+ equality.

Action item: Call or text three cis people in your life about a measure they can take to support trans people.

...

Support trans and nonbinary journalists, and make sure our major newspapers and media outlets are doing the same. Today’s New York Times article was written by cis people and quotes almost entirely cis people. It also says that the Obama administration “loosened” the concept of gender, which is false: The Obama administration realized that sex as it was defined under the law actually encompassed and protected trans people. By stating the Obama administration “loosened” the definition of gender, the Times actually plays into the hands of the GOP, who are now clinging to a “biological” definition of legal sex versus the “idea” of gender identity. Legal sex includes trans people, and a trans reporter would’ve caught that.

Action item: Follow trans journalists and signal-boost their work or sign up for their newsletters. And when you see articles about trans people appearing in mainstream media, hold them accountable by asking why a trans person didn’t write or appear in the piece.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 22, 2018 12:18 pm 
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GLAAD's media guide is also always helpful. The whole thing is worth a read.

https://www.glaad.org/reference/transgender

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 22, 2018 4:21 pm 
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Incidentally, the new season of Supergirl's new character Nia Nals is trans.
https://www.glamour.com/story/nicole-ma ... -superhero

The theme of anti-alien (as in ET) discrimination is again big this season, as it seems people have found out the Prez (played by Lynda Carter) is really an alien and has now been forced to step down, so they say, because she didn't reveal this when she took office.

Some weird masked guy named "Agent Liberty" is leading anti-alien rallies, complaining how aliens are taking away peoples' jobs. Boy, do they sound a lot like Trump rallies.

Anyway, Brainiac 5, who is not only from the future, but also an alien, accidentally reveals this in a pizzeria and the owner starts threatening him. Nia comes to his defense. You might expect why she explains to him later why this is instinctual for her.

BTW, you can see also why the James Olson of this superverse, who happens to be black, immediately senses the importance of this issue, too, although he's worried because he's been exposed as the vigilante Guardian.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 23, 2018 1:39 am 
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Not a stunt; not a novelty.

And nobody is waiting around for these ideas to become actual policy and the subsequent lawsuits and courts that will come of it, either. At least nobody I know.

Trump says transgender policy seeks to 'protect the country' - Reuters

stupid white Nationalist

Quote:
U.S. President Donald Trump said on Monday that transgender issues were in flux and he aims to protect the country after a report that his administration was considering defining gender as male or female based on genitalia at birth drew widespread condemnation.

“We have a lot of different concepts right now. They have a lot of different things happening with respect to transgender right now,” Trump said amid a protest outside the White House and outpouring of criticism on social media about the proposal.

Asked about a campaign promise to protect the LGBT community, Trump said: “I’m protecting everybody. I want to protect our country.”

Under a proposal first reported by the New York Times on Sunday, the Trump administration would narrow the definition of gender to male or female at birth and it would be unchangeable later in life.

The move would remove recognition of and protections for transgender people under U.S. civil rights laws promoted by the prior administration of President Barack Obama in health care, schools and the military.

About 1.4 million U.S. adults identify as transgender, according to a 2016 estimate by the Williams Institute, a research center at UCLA Law School focused on sexual orientation and gender identity law and public policy.

The reported proposal comes little more than a week after New York City created a gender-neutral “X” option for birth certificates, joining California, Oregon, Washington state and New Jersey in offering a third gender category on the government-issued identity documents.

Medical experts said on Monday that defining gender based on genitalia at birth is scientifically inaccurate and may harm patients’ health.

Dr. Joshua Safer, executive director of Mount Sinai Hospital’s Center for Transgender Medicine and Surgery, said the Trump administration’s definition is “not consistent with current western medicine or science in terms of how we actually operate or define sex of individuals.”

“Sex of individuals is not correlated always with their genitals at birth, or with their chromosomes,” said Safer, who also serves as president of the United States Professional Association for Transgender Health.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 23, 2018 12:40 pm 
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Quote:
U.S. President Donald Trump said on Monday that transgender issues were in flux and he aims to protect the country after a report that his administration was considering defining gender as male or female based on genitalia at birth drew widespread condemnation.

“We have a lot of different concepts right now. They have a lot of different things happening with respect to transgender right now,” Trump said amid a protest outside the White House and outpouring of criticism on social media about the proposal.

More divisiveness from the Trump admin. Based on the above, I suspect there is no firm proposal at this point and that, in fact, even if there is, Trump knows little, if anything about it. It was likely a leak from inside the Admin. And this, like most of his other stupid thoughts/comments are designed to bring out more extremists to support Republicans. (T)He(y) certainly is expert at using hate to still up an electorate.


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 23, 2018 1:16 pm 
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More divisiveness from the Trump admin. Based on the above, I suspect there is no firm proposal at this point and that, in fact, even if there is, Trump knows little, if anything about it. It was likely a leak from inside the Admin. And this, like most of his other stupid thoughts/comments are designed to bring out more extremists to support Republicans. (T)He(y) certainly is expert at using hate to still up an electorate.


TBH, I think it's more than election-time red meat for the redhats. I would consider all the freakouts about "the caravan" and Middle Easterners in "the caravan" to be that.

The floating of this policy idea is in keeping with other federal-level anti-trans policies in not just HHS but also the Department of Education and the military. The effort here is to remove the citizenship rights of an already-reviled social and numerical minority, while also treating said minority as a threat that the country must be protected from. Sound familiar?

The main difference between the trans persons who are targets of these policies and "the caravan" or little migrant kids we currently have holed up in concentration camps is that LGBTQ citizens are citizens, and transgender Americans are citizens. Neither of us even have full citizenship rights, yet, because you can get fired simply for being LGBTQ in several states, for instance.

And the country does have a bad history of stripping American citizens of citizenship rights and making entire swathes of vulnerable populations "illegitimate". Anyone in doubt can look at our eugenics laws, eugenics laws as applied to immigration, and Asian-American civil rights history. I think this is way deeper than midterm elections rabblerousing.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 23, 2018 2:31 pm 
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carmenjonze wrote:
And the country does have a bad history of stripping American citizens of citizenship rights and making entire swathes of vulnerable populations "illegitimate". Anyone in doubt can look at our eugenics laws, eugenics laws as applied to immigration, and Asian-American civil rights history.
It certainly does...especially over just about any short run...and there are many more examples.

Without being pollyannish however, over the long run, this is not the trend in the US. And this idiot and his minions too will fail and, hopefully, be recognized among the same group of shameful events.


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 23, 2018 4:58 pm 
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Question is: protect it ... from what?

I have the same question when he says he will protect us from "the Caravan".

What threat or danger does a caravan of refugee migrants from Honduras pose?

(Once we know the claim of mysteriously manifesting hidden Middle Eastern terrorists in its ranks was utter bullshit).

BTW, I can think of some answers, but they might not want to be the ones Trump wants to say aloud. Like "to supremacy".

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 23, 2018 5:01 pm 
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Question is: protect it ... from what?

I have the same question when he says he will protect us from "the Caravan".

What threat or danger does a caravan of refugee migrants from Honduras pose?

(Once we know the claim of mysteriously manifesting hidden Middle Eastern terrorists in its ranks was utter bullshit).

BTW, I can think of some answers, but they might not want to be the ones Trump wants to say aloud. Like "to supremacy".

Rump isnt really sure the difference between trans and cross dressing.

He doesnt care much either way about them but if KILLING them made his base happy then he would absolutely do that.

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