Biden asks Congress to force rail agreement

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Glennfs
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Re: Biden asks Congress to force rail agreement

Post by Glennfs »

gounion wrote: Thu Dec 01, 2022 11:21 am Not now. You calling Six a liar?
I do not believe in the 70s that k mart employees received sick pay. Especially not part timers.
You had to work 5 years to get 2 weeks vacation.
So I believe he is mistaken.
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gounion
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Re: Biden asks Congress to force rail agreement

Post by gounion »

Glennfs wrote: Thu Dec 01, 2022 11:38 am I do not believe in the 70s that k mart employees received sick pay. Especially not part timers.
You had to work 5 years to get 2 weeks vacation.
So I believe he is mistaken.
I know Six; he's not the kind of guy to be mistaken on that kind of thing.

You didn't work there; he did.
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carmenjonze
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Re: Biden asks Congress to force rail agreement

Post by carmenjonze »

Glennfs wrote: Thu Dec 01, 2022 10:01 am That is odd I worked in many stores like Kmart and never heard of any with paid sick leave.

https://www.indeed.com/cmp/Kmart/faq/wh ... vj652ubar6

No paid sick leave for Kmart employees
Why are you against more than one day of sick leave?
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Glennfs
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Re: Biden asks Congress to force rail agreement

Post by Glennfs »

carmenjonze wrote: Thu Dec 01, 2022 11:57 am Why are you against more than one day of sick leave?
Not against sick leave as long as you are sick.
What will happen is this, say they get 6 days sick leave. Miraculously evert employee will get sick and miss 6 days a year.
The average pay package is around $160,000 including benefits. At that rate you should be able to save enough to cover your sick days.
6 days sick leave will probably cost the business $200 per day per employee if not more $1200 per year per employee.
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gounion
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Re: Biden asks Congress to force rail agreement

Post by gounion »

Glennfs wrote: Thu Dec 01, 2022 12:35 pm Not against sick leave as long as you are sick.
What will happen is this, say they get 6 days sick leave. Miraculously evert employee will get sick and miss 6 days a year.
The average pay package is around $160,000 including benefits. At that rate you should be able to save enough to cover your sick days.
6 days sick leave will probably cost the business $200 per day per employee if not more $1200 per year per employee.
Let's be fucking clear. I've worked my whole life with sick pay. And most workers DO NOT use every sick day. That's a fact. I know I never did.

But when I got sick and had to go into the hospital for surgery, then caught pneumonia there, and spent three months there, it was nice not to have to worry about how I was going to pay the bills. I only had to worry about getting better.

How about those who don't have sick leave and something happens? You good with them going bankrupt and losing everything?

And for the railroad workers, it's not about the money. It's about getting fired for getting sick and missing days.
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Number6
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Re: Biden asks Congress to force rail agreement

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Glennfs wrote: Thu Dec 01, 2022 10:01 am That is odd I worked in many stores like Kmart and never heard of any with paid sick leave.

https://www.indeed.com/cmp/Kmart/faq/wh ... vj652ubar6

No paid sick leave for Kmart employees
You worked in many stores like K-Mart meaning they weren't K-Mart. I worked for them for two years in the early 70s and, like I said, they had it
Last edited by Number6 on Thu Dec 01, 2022 1:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Number6
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Re: Biden asks Congress to force rail agreement

Post by Number6 »

Glennfs wrote: Thu Dec 01, 2022 11:38 am I do not believe in the 70s that k mart employees received sick pay. Especially not part timers.
What you believe and what is reality are two different things. I worked for K-Mart back then and you didn't so you're knowledge of K-Mart and their policies is zero. I don't recall what part-timers got because I was a full-time (48-week) employee.
You had to work 5 years to get 2 weeks vacation.
IIRC, back then K-Mart gave employees one week vacation after working twelve months and a couple of days after working six months. But vacation time is different from sick days.
So I believe he is mistaken.
Again, your belief and reality are in conflict and reality is winning.
When you vote left, you vote right.
JoeMemphis

Re: Biden asks Congress to force rail agreement

Post by JoeMemphis »

Number6 wrote: Thu Dec 01, 2022 1:31 pm What you believe and what is reality are two different things. I worked for K-Mart back then and you didn't so you're knowledge of K-Mart and their policies is zero. I don't recall what part-timers got because I was a full-time (48-week) employee.


IIRC, back then K-Mart gave employees one week vacation after working twelve months and a couple of days after working six months. But vacation time is different from sick days.


Again, your belief and reality are in conflict and reality is winning.
Based on the Glenn’s link if accurate the difference between the base of 110K and total package of 160K is 50K. That’s pretty hefty. Maybe it’s overvalued but who knows. I would be curious as to what makes up those benefits and how they value them. Many companies these days do not do sick days. They give their employees more personal/vacation days to use as they please. It’s a waste of time in many cases as many people treat them like personal days anyway. So just call them personal days.

That being said, a benefits package valued at roughly half your base isn’t being stingy or greedy. It sounds pretty generous. Of course that depends on what exactly is included and how it’s valued. The devil is always in the details.
gounion
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Re: Biden asks Congress to force rail agreement

Post by gounion »

JoeMemphis wrote: Thu Dec 01, 2022 2:26 pm Based on the Glenn’s link if accurate the difference between the base of 110K and total package of 160K is 50K. That’s pretty hefty. Maybe it’s overvalued but who knows. I would be curious as to what makes up those benefits and how they value them. Many companies these days do not do sick days. They give their employees more personal/vacation days to use as they please. It’s a waste of time in many cases as many people treat them like personal days anyway. So just call them personal days.

That being said, a benefits package valued at roughly half your base isn’t being stingy or greedy. It sounds pretty generous. Of course that depends on what exactly is included and how it’s valued. The devil is always in the details.
I wouldn't call it generous. Now, I'd call the CEO pay generous. But the worker pay? Not at all. They deserve good pay and benefits for what they do.

Why does that piss you guys off so damned much?
JoeMemphis

Re: Biden asks Congress to force rail agreement

Post by JoeMemphis »

gounion wrote: Thu Dec 01, 2022 2:33 pm I wouldn't call it generous. Now, I'd call the CEO pay generous. But the worker pay? Not at all. They deserve good pay and benefits for what they do.

Why does that piss you guys off so damned much?
I’m not pissed off. Just asking a question. Does that piss you off or are you just pissed off that I’m not pissed off? It doesn’t matter. You don’t answer or can’t questions for yourself anyway.
gounion
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Re: Biden asks Congress to force rail agreement

Post by gounion »

JoeMemphis wrote: Thu Dec 01, 2022 2:38 pm I’m not pissed off. Just asking a question. Does that piss you off or are you just pissed off that I’m not pissed off? It doesn’t matter. You don’t answer or can’t questions for yourself anyway.
Nice deflection.

So, what do YOU think these workers should be paid? What benefits do you think they deserve?

These railroads are highly profitable. The CEOs make scads of money.

Yet they'd rather see a ruinous strike than give workers a sick day.

BTW, most companies - but, admittedly not all - have specific rules on how to use vacation day. You can't just use one as a sick day. You have to schedule vacation ahead of time. At my old company, you had to schedule your vacation at the beginning of the year for the whole year. But, we did have a decent sick day policy and compensation.
JoeMemphis

Re: Biden asks Congress to force rail agreement

Post by JoeMemphis »

gounion wrote: Thu Dec 01, 2022 2:47 pm Nice deflection.

So, what do YOU think these workers should be paid? What benefits do you think they deserve?

These railroads are highly profitable. The CEOs make scads of money.

Yet they'd rather see a ruinous strike than give workers a sick day.

BTW, most companies - but, admittedly not all - have specific rules on how to use vacation day. You can't just use one as a sick day. You have to schedule vacation ahead of time. At my old company, you had to schedule your vacation at the beginning of the year for the whole year. But, we did have a decent sick day policy and compensation.
According to the numbers Number6 posted, the median for this type of work is approx 70K. So 110K base sounds more than reasonable. I have no idea what’s included in the benefits package, how it is valued. I assume it’s the basic health insurance and retirement package, vacation etc. I don’t have the details so I can’t speak to valuation. I will say that benefits that are 40 to 50 percent of base sounds pretty decent. I wouldn’t call it greedy or stingy.
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carmenjonze
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Re: Biden asks Congress to force rail agreement

Post by carmenjonze »

Glennfs wrote: Thu Dec 01, 2022 12:35 pm Not against sick leave as long as you are sick.
What will happen is this, say they get 6 days sick leave. Miraculously evert employee will get sick and miss 6 days a year.
The average pay package is around $160,000 including benefits. At that rate you should be able to save enough to cover your sick days.
:?

This is pure speculation based in paranoia.
6 days sick leave will probably cost the business $200 per day per employee if not more $1200 per year per employee.
Oh my goodness $1200 per year per employee! Lol so what if it did, in your ridiculous, paranoid scenario.

Do you really think multimillionaire CEO Lance M. fritz of Union Pacific shouldn’t get paid sick leave? LMAO.
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Libertas
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Re: Biden asks Congress to force rail agreement

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carmenjonze wrote: Thu Dec 01, 2022 3:04 pm :?

This is pure speculation based in paranoia.



Oh my goodness $1200 per year per employee! Lol so what if it did, in your ridiculous, paranoid scenario.

Do you really think multimillionaire CEO Lance M. fritz of Union Pacific shouldn’t get paid sick leave? LMAO.
The cost of sick leave is in the millions, the profits are in the billions.

Now count down for righty to show up with something that shows they dont really have much in profits, that the net is next to nothing. The way our tax system works very profitable companies can not show profits routinely.
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carmenjonze
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Re: Biden asks Congress to force rail agreement

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Libertas wrote: Thu Dec 01, 2022 3:11 pm The cost of sick leave is in the millions, the profits are in the billions.

Now count down for righty to show up with something that shows they dont really have much in profits, that the net is next to nothing. The way our tax system works very profitable companies can not show profits routinely.
What am I thinking.

These conservatives want as many people spreading around germs at work, as possible.

They’re fine with people having to come to work with sprains, broken bones, or the day after surgery.

Imagine what they think of railroad workers with sick children or taking care of sick parents.

JFC even a dirty WS antisemite like Henry Ford knew better than these conservative people today. :?
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carmenjonze
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Re: Biden asks Congress to force rail agreement

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JoeMemphis wrote: Thu Dec 01, 2022 2:38 pm I’m not pissed off. Just asking a question. Does that piss you off or are you just pissed off that I’m not pissed off? It doesn’t matter. You don’t answer or can’t questions for yourself anyway.
Why do you guys think multimillionaire CEOs deserve a week of paid sick leave but the people who do the actual work, don’t?
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gounion
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Re: Biden asks Congress to force rail agreement

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JoeMemphis wrote: Thu Dec 01, 2022 2:55 pm According to the numbers Number6 posted, the median for this type of work is approx 70K. So 110K base sounds more than reasonable. I have no idea what’s included in the benefits package, how it is valued. I assume it’s the basic health insurance and retirement package, vacation etc. I don’t have the details so I can’t speak to valuation. I will say that benefits that are 40 to 50 percent of base sounds pretty decent. I wouldn’t call it greedy or stingy.
I think that 110K is a good rate of pay. But then, all workers should be making MORE. I think anyone that works 40 hours a week should have a living wage, health care and some form of pension. If a company can't afford that, then it needs to go out of business, because another that is better managed can come in and do so.

I often use my aunt as an example. She was a janitor at a unionized company back in the sixties. Her husband had left before I remember, and I don't know much about him except that she had no assistance at all from him. It was all her. She had health insurance, made enough money that she owned a small house, her own (used but decent) car, and she was able to feed and clothe and put two boys through college. She was also able to retire comfortably, with a small union pension and Social Security.

I'm not asking someone like her to live like a CEO (it seems only CEOs deserve to live like CEOs), but to have some human dignity for the work they do.

But conservatives don't believe workers deserve any kind of dignity.

And let me say something about dignity. When I started at the plant, I worked second shift in production. One foreman (department boss) decided that people were spending longer in the bathroom than he thought was needed, so he had maintenance come and take the doors down from the stalls.

Now, that's what I'm talking about. Having to set and shit in front of others, wiping your ass in public. No thought at all for any kind of human dignity.

Good news is we had a union. That didn't last the night, and the doors were back up, and an apology was posted from management, and the foreman was transferred to the other side of town.

But that's the kind of human dignity workers deserve, and the right doesn't believe we deserve. They hold workers in contempt.
gounion
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Re: Biden asks Congress to force rail agreement

Post by gounion »

The Senate passed a rail agreement to be sent to the President. However, the GOP filibustered the paid leave amendment. Biden:
“I negotiated a contract no one else could negotiate – the only thing that was left out was whether or not there was a paid leave,” Biden told reporters in the White House East Room. “You know, I’ve been trying to get paid leave, not just rail workers, but for everybody.”

“Now, within this agreement, we’re gonna avoid the rail strike, keep the rails running, keep things moving, and we’re gonna go back and we’re gonna get paid leave – not just for rail workers, but for all workers,” he said.
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Libertas
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Re: Biden asks Congress to force rail agreement

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gounion wrote: Thu Dec 01, 2022 3:30 pm The Senate passed a rail agreement to be sent to the President. However, the GOP filibustered the paid leave amendment. Biden:
When this is final I look forward to your recap of what they got and how it compares to what they asked for PLUS how it compares to the rest of the world. My guess is if they got everything they wanted it will still be a fraction of what the rest of the world does.
I sigh in your general direction.
gounion
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Re: Biden asks Congress to force rail agreement

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Libertas wrote: Thu Dec 01, 2022 4:28 pm When this is final I look forward to your recap of what they got and how it compares to what they asked for PLUS how it compares to the rest of the world. My guess is if they got everything they wanted it will still be a fraction of what the rest of the world does.
Well, I dunno. You have to realize it’s a case of apples and oranges. In every other first-world country, the corporations don’t pay the health care, it’s paid from some sort of taxation. Whereas here, the corporation can pay several thousand dollars PER MONTH PER EMPLOYEE, so that skews it quite a bit. We had that issue with a company that had been bought by a Canadian company. Yes, their corporate taxes were somewhat higher than here, but their employee costs, even when taxes were taken into account, were FAR higher here, so, even with the higher wages they paid in Canada.

Plus, many other countries have a national pension plan, which pays far better than social security. So it’s difficult to compare.

Obviously countries like Germany, Japan and the like have better worker income, which makes for a stronger economy for everyone, as workers with larger incomes means they have more money to spend.

This is what I don’t understand with righties like Joe and Glenn. They should understand that well-paid workers makes for a better economy for EVERYONE. Do you want an economy with minimum-wage workers who can’t afford to buy a car that runs, vs an economy with union workers that can go buy a new car? Which is better?
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Libertas
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Re: Biden asks Congress to force rail agreement

Post by Libertas »

They oppose it because we support it.
I sigh in your general direction.
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Re: Biden asks Congress to force rail agreement

Post by Motor City »

gounion wrote: Thu Dec 01, 2022 3:30 pm The Senate passed a rail agreement to be sent to the President. However, the GOP filibustered the paid leave amendment. Biden:
The senate and president side with recklessly abusing, endangering workers and the environment, in a ruse about stopping a recession. The karma for this cant be good.
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Libertas
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Re: Biden asks Congress to force rail agreement

Post by Libertas »

Because of cons or the GOP there is no paid sick leave yet.

Alternative would have been to do great harm to the economy, though I am not totally against that I guess. The problem is to get cons to do the right thing you practically have to completely destroy the human race, let alone an economy. Amazing isnt it. :evil:
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JoeMemphis

Re: Biden asks Congress to force rail agreement

Post by JoeMemphis »

gounion wrote: Thu Dec 01, 2022 4:46 pm Well, I dunno. You have to realize it’s a case of apples and oranges. In every other first-world country, the corporations don’t pay the health care, it’s paid from some sort of taxation. Whereas here, the corporation can pay several thousand dollars PER MONTH PER EMPLOYEE, so that skews it quite a bit. We had that issue with a company that had been bought by a Canadian company. Yes, their corporate taxes were somewhat higher than here, but their employee costs, even when taxes were taken into account, were FAR higher here, so, even with the higher wages they paid in Canada.

Plus, many other countries have a national pension plan, which pays far better than social security. So it’s difficult to compare.

Obviously countries like Germany, Japan and the like have better worker income, which makes for a stronger economy for everyone, as workers with larger incomes means they have more money to spend.

This is what I don’t understand with righties like Joe and Glenn. They should understand that well-paid workers makes for a better economy for EVERYONE. Do you want an economy with minimum-wage workers who can’t afford to buy a car that runs, vs an economy with union workers that can go buy a new car? Which is better?
If you don’t understand people like Glenn and I then perhaps you should stick to what you do understand. Just saying.
gounion
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Re: Biden asks Congress to force rail agreement

Post by gounion »

JoeMemphis wrote: Thu Dec 01, 2022 8:40 pm If you don’t understand people like Glenn and I then perhaps you should stick to what you do understand. Just saying.
Translation: “I’ve got nothin’!” :lol: :lol: :lol:
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