Alice Miller on Primal Therapy

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Re: Alice Miller on Primal Therapy

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bradman » Wed Jan 15, 2020 6:24 pm wrote: Ike has never twisted my words.
OK. Do you think I have? I accept honest feedback - from anybody. Always have.

If you're speaking about somebody else, I don't control other people. We can get to the blind spot issue, if you want. How much control do you want me to exert over someone else's behavior, I am not a moderator.

As for what bothers me and what doesn't bother me, well, now we get into matters of psychology. I think. But yes, I will only complain about stuff that bothers me. As others will complain about the stuff that bothers them.
And right or wrong, i like his brutal honesty.
I think honesty doesn't have to be brutal. I try and be honest without being brutal. Brutally putting things is not the only way to communicate them. I know I am not the only person on the planet with a mother who is or has died from cancer. I don't mind being told that, but normal people, all the other normal people on the board, showed some empathy. I think I got a very odd abnormal response sans empathy from him. Do you disagree?

Is this "brutal honesty"? We have one (openly identified) gay male on this board, I know he's dealing with MH issues, hasn't posted lately, do you think he would enjoy reading this?
Ike wrote: Sucking one cock after another in the balcony of the Adonis is neurotic in spades
It might be Ike's honest view, it could be said a bit less brutally and with more tact, and don't you think it might upset some gay men here? If any are still reading him, that is. Yes?

It's weird, people accuse me of being condescending, but I have never felt most people are stupid. My pedagogical experience is that most are not. I don't enjoy seeing people being put down, never have.

I don't disrespect people without academic degrees. I like Randi Rhodes although I believe she didn't even finish high school before going into the military. I think she has 'natural smarts'. I believe she is very good at dissecting a news story and laying out the importance of certain things in it, although yes she is not a journalist and never went to college. I don't believe only people with PhDs have smart stuff to say. Never have.

I don't think you need a university education to understand why evaluating the credibility and reliability of sources is important. If I tell people why they should do it, I don't think I am disrespecting them, I also am telling them this is for their own benefit. It's something you should do even when not on a MB.

There are places where I could talk only to other academics. Plenty of them. That is not why I am here. They are not the only people I am interested in talking to, or even listening to.

On one final point, the interesting thing is for me, the Holocaust is not just an academic subject. I lost family members, a great grandmother and others. I know they died in Auschwitz. The horrors of it for me are not something I just learned in a class. They are part of my personal reality. I saw what happened to my father in Yad Vashem. He broke down sobbing, crying, I've never seen him like that, over his grandmother not even having a grave.
Last edited by ProfessorX on Wed Jan 15, 2020 7:23 pm, edited 10 times in total.
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Re: Alice Miller on Primal Therapy

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If you think I just did so now, I accept honest feedback. I do not think I just did so.

BTW, Ike or anyone else can choose to believe I started this thread just to get back at Ike. That's not the case. I'm warning people about PT because I believe there is a duty to warn. Once I started looking into it ... I had only heard this or that about "the primal scream" and honestly never knew much until recently ... until I started looking deeper. Then I started looking at what other people were saying about it, and this is key, was there a basis to what they were saying, and I saw ... yes.

It's not about him, me, you, or anyone else. I'm doing it to warn other people.
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Re: Alice Miller on Primal Therapy

Post by Doremus Jessup »

You’re not warning anybody about primal therapy. It’s passé and no body pretty cares or knows about it anymore. You’re on a mission to twist.

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Re: Alice Miller on Primal Therapy

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Doremus Jessup » Wed Jan 15, 2020 4:38 pm wrote:You’re not warning anybody about primal therapy. It’s passé and no body pretty cares or knows about it anymore. You’re on a mission to twist.
srsly.

repetitious too.

not sure what the 'classroom' time is but x is on this board a whole way lotta time.
Who are these..flag-sucking halfwits fleeced fooled by stupid little rich kids, They speak
for all that is cruel stupid, They are racists hate mongers I piss down the throats of
these Nazis Im too old to worry whether they like it, Fuck them.
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Re: Alice Miller on Primal Therapy

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Doremus Jessup » Wed Jan 15, 2020 7:38 pm wrote:You’re not warning anybody about primal therapy. It’s passé and no body pretty cares or knows about it anymore.
They don't? Yes, I know Art Janov died in 2017. I agree it's not widespread, but ...

Can you explain why you earlier posted these words of Franklin Wenham?

You posted these words from the same Vice article we both posted from, but you chose to emphasize this:
Vice wrote: Wenham now offers primal as part of a range of treatments. But it's a strict process: Patients who want to undertake it have to undergo significant assessment to guarantee they are mentally fit to deal with the intensity of the treatment. Wenham insists that primal is only appropriate for those who have "enough feet in reality"—those who would instead be spending years on a psychoanalyst's couch, not those who need urgent psychological help.

"It works very well with 'functioning neurotics'—that's another Janov phrase, I think," he says. "People who are able to cope with what life throws at them, but are pretty unhappy and keep making the same old mistakes... and basically have a life script that is self-defeating. Those kinds of people often do very well in primal therapy."
If it's passe and nobody knows or cares about it, why is Wenham still DOING it in Brighton, England?

More interesting: if you don't care about it, why were you so sure to make sure I acknowledged his statement that there are "parameters" of people who can benefit from it?

Final thing: I have warned about other allegedly therapeutic techniques that use so-called regressive therapy, to supposedly recall repressed memories of patients, and also pointed out their dangers. Those other "techniques" are, unfortunately, also, still being practiced today.
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Re: Alice Miller on Primal Therapy

Post by carmenjonze »

bradman » Wed Jan 15, 2020 3:24 pm wrote:
Well Ike, why would i express my feelings to some here that would so twist what i was trying to say into something so far from what i was originally trying to get at? It's just not worth the effort and as far as i can tell they only do it because i'm not in full agreement with their sjw line of thinking. i believe their "woke" culture is doing more harm than good.
There is no "woke culture" here, except in conservative mentality, repeating terms fed to you by others. You do damage to yourselves and, typically, wish to blame others for your own self-induced miseries.
Ya see, as i've mentioned before, this old boy had to take an extra summer school class just to get his diploma. ...
So none of this hokey story about your educational experience has anything to do with Ike Bana speaking for a grown man.

He's 74, you're 61. And you call him "dad"? Okaayyyy....

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Re: Alice Miller on Primal Therapy

Post by carmenjonze »

Doremus Jessup » Wed Jan 15, 2020 4:38 pm wrote:It’s passé and no body pretty cares or knows about it anymore.
Then it doesn't matter one way or the other if we criticize it and those like Ike Bana who in 2020 are still defensive of it.

Just ignore the thread, then, if it's passé and irrelevant.
Last edited by carmenjonze on Wed Jan 15, 2020 9:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Alice Miller on Primal Therapy

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carmenjonze » Wed Jan 15, 2020 5:38 pm wrote:
Then it doesn't matter one way or the other if we criticize it and those who are defensive of it.

Just ignore the thread, if it's passé and irrelevant.

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Re: Alice Miller on Primal Therapy

Post by carmenjonze »

rainwater » Wed Jan 15, 2020 5:03 pm wrote: srsly.

repetitious too.

not sure what the 'classroom' time is but x is on this board a whole way lotta time.
Have you done primal therapy, yourself?

What exactly has ProfX "twisted"?

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Re: Alice Miller on Primal Therapy

Post by carmenjonze »

Strong and wrong is conservative behavior and mentality.
bradman » Wed Jan 15, 2020 3:24 pm wrote:And right or wrong, i like his brutal honesty.
So this "brutal honesty" you talk about...this is the same guy who tells the board I "sought counsel" from him in PM and when asked to produce said PM...suddenly he goes silent.

Actually stops addressing me directly, at all. I have no problems believing Ike Bana might strive to be a brutal person, at least at RFL -- anybody who has endured DV recognizes the MO. But these are acts of cowardice and dishonesty.

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Re: Alice Miller on Primal Therapy

Post by Doremus Jessup »

ProfessorX » Wed Jan 15, 2020 8:18 pm wrote:
They don't? Yes, I know Art Janov died in 2017. I agree it's not widespread, but ...

Can you explain why you earlier posted these words of Franklin Wenham?

You posted these words from the same Vice article we both posted from, but you chose to emphasize this:


If it's passe and nobody knows or cares about it, why is Wenham still DOING it in Brighton, England?

More interesting: if you don't care about it, why were you so sure to make sure I acknowledged his statement that there are "parameters" of people who can benefit from it?

Final thing: I have warned about other allegedly therapeutic techniques that use so-called regressive therapy, to supposedly recall repressed memories of patients, and also pointed out their dangers. Those other "techniques" are, unfortunately, also, still being practiced today.

Unfortunately you lack the capacity to grok simple.

I read the article. Thought it interesting that a single therapist using somewhat narrow guidelines saw circumstances where elements of primal therapy might help. No big program or big institute.

Simple. He sees possible application in some circumstances.

Simple. You couldn't find or understand the parameters so I pointed them out to you.

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Re: Alice Miller on Primal Therapy

Post by ProfessorX »

Ah Ok DJ. It's passe and nobody cares about it anymore, except for this one dude, but you wanted me to make sure I understood that dude's parameters. Totally all makes sense now. :D

Say, did you hear this from some passing alien aircraft from other dimensions? Just wondering.
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Re: Alice Miller on Primal Therapy

Post by Doremus Jessup »

You’re the one who asked what the parameters were. I just reminded you they were in the Vice article.

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Re: Alice Miller on Primal Therapy

Post by carmenjonze »

Doremus Jessup » Wed Jan 15, 2020 9:10 pm wrote:You’re the one who asked what the parameters were. I just reminded you they were in the Vice article.
Have you been in primal therapy? It seems really important to a lot of you guys to try and take down ProfX by poking at his intelligence. And in the case of Ike Bana, on the basis of his intelligence and masculinity. Wonder why that is.

What makes it so interesting is that he does not do that to you. And just as I have been saying since the minute Ike Bana went into his screamer cult act with me once it became clear to him his attitude adjustment attempts were failing, I am not the first, and I won't be the last. ProfX won't be the last, either.

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Re: Alice Miller on Primal Therapy

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Doremus Jessup » Thu Jan 16, 2020 12:10 am wrote:You’re the one who asked what the parameters were. I just reminded you they were in the Vice article.
In the section you posted, I do remember.

If it's passe and no one cares about it anymore ... then there is no point in describing the parameters of people it could be useful for today. Right?

And again, my point was, yes, Msr. Wenham described "parameters" but they were kind of vague and promotional, not the kind of objective answer independent sources might give.

"Well, it works best for people aged 20-30, with no history of chocolate addiction, and who have no family history of flatulence," etc., etc. That wasn't the answer he gave. He basically said, "It's for people only if they really, really want it and are willing to work for it." :mrgreen: So, no, it's not for everybody ... just the best people. ;)
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Re: Alice Miller on Primal Therapy

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ProfessorX » Wed Jan 15, 2020 10:57 pm wrote:Ah Ok DJ. It's passe and nobody cares about it anymore, except for this one dude, but you wanted me to make sure I understood that dude's parameters.
Is that right? Ya mean the one dude who actually initiated this discussion about Primal Therapy, with another of his innocent statement questions.
ProfessorX » Sun Jan 05, 2020 2:30 pm wrote: Ike, how long did you work with Art Janov? I think you said he was a mentor.
And suddenly armed with pages and pages of wiki's and reports from disgruntled idiot former staff members about Primal Therapy.

Feh... "this one dude" who still cares about Primal Therapy is you, perfesser. You dragged it up out of nowhere.

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Re: Alice Miller on Primal Therapy

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I wasn't the one who said being in PT and working with "Art" was as close to being "holy" as they've ever experienced. YOU told me it saved your life from drug addiction (BTW, I'm not denying that ... just asked you earlier if other things might have worked too.) Call someone a mentor ... that implies ... well, something. But you've already told me you went through group therapy with him and then some training in the technique. Right?

I admit - until recently, I had heard of the so-called primal scream, knew next to nothing about it. So I saw that statement and yes, started with Wikipedia, then went further.

Yes, once I started realizing that it was widely considered a pseudoscience, and more importantly, dangerous ... AND still practiced today ... Duty to Warn.

Now I will admit: lots of folks in psychology and psychiatry dismiss Jungian therapy as woo, too ... it's just there aren't all kinds of scandalous stories about Jungian therapists abusing or damaging their patients.

Have a nice day.
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Re: Alice Miller on Primal Therapy

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ProfessorX » Thu Jan 16, 2020 9:34 am wrote:I wasn't the one who said being in PT and working with "Art" was as close to being "holy" as they've ever experienced. YOU told me it saved your life from drug addiction (BTW, I'm not denying that ... just asked you earlier if other things might have worked too.) Call someone a mentor ... that implies ... well, something. But you've already told me you went through group therapy with him and then some training in the technique. Right?
So here's what I've learned this morning. When the perfesser gets caught out he's just a coward and a liar.

Your January 5 post above generated this conversation, not me. Anything I've said about Primal or Art that you specifically note above came after you dragged up the subject on Jan 5. And now you're trying to say that "some dude" is the only one who doesnt think it's passe.

That dude is you.

Where did I say I received any formal training from Art? Go find where I said that, and put it up here. Produce a post of mine where I said I got formal clinical training at the Primal Institute. Produce the posts where I said the therapy "saved my life" or where I said it felt like the "closest thing to a holy place" prior to your Jan 5 post. Go ahead then.

And like this is the first time you've tried to get away with shit like this. Ther perfesser permanently leaves his integrity and his credibility in his other pants. Or maybe it's just early onset dementia and you forgot, eh?

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Re: Alice Miller on Primal Therapy

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Ike Bana » Thu Jan 16, 2020 10:50 am wrote: Produce the posts where I said the therapy "saved my life" or where I said it felt like the "closest thing to a holy place" prior to your Jan 5 post. Go ahead then.
Ask and you shall receive. In case you want to check, again I'm not good at the internal links thing, but you said this on January 10th (in relation to your experience of PT):

I'm making sure to use your EXACT words - no paraphrase; I have copied and pasted.
Ike wrote: It was the closest thing to a holy place where I've ever been in my life.
This is your post from January 5th:
Ike wrote: The only thing I will add is that prior to doing the therapy I had spent the previous nine years stoned every day. It save my life.
You put "save" instead of "saved" but those are your words - "saved my life" (referring to PT).

I asked you if "Art" was your mentor - a statement you made earlier - you replied, also on January 5th:
Its none of your fucking business who I see as a mentor. I learned a fucking carload more about human nature than I learned from Ghandi or Dr. King. He's a mentor.
That is a yes answer on my planet, and a yes answer in the way that most people use the word mentor, means they trained you as a student. I guess you may be using the word differently. I know you have to be with HL Mencken, it's impossible he "trained" you in anything.

Now the next question is whether you trained with Dr. Briere, the other person you identified as a "mentor". I know, if I ask this again, what response I will get. It's an interrogation!
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Re: Alice Miller on Primal Therapy

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All after your Jan 5th post dredging up the subject. Produce the posts I made referencing the "saving of my life" or my reflection on the "holy place" prior to your Jan 5th post. Go ahead and do it, or just shut the fuck up. You started this shit, not me. Last time I checked, Jan 10th comes after Jan 5th.

A mentor is a guide. One who may have provided guidance to me in person or who may have died before I was born and provided guidance through their published works, interviews or quotes. Formal trainers may or may not qualify as mentors. Now tou want to debate the quality of my definition of mentor?

The fuck we are.

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Re: Alice Miller on Primal Therapy

Post by carmenjonze »

Ike Bana » Thu Jan 16, 2020 10:28 am wrote:All after your Jan 5th post dredging up the subject. Produce the posts I made referencing the "saving of my life" or my reflection on the "holy place" prior to your Jan 5th post. Go ahead and do it, or just shut the fuck up. You started this shit, not me. Last time I checked, Jan 10th comes after Jan 5th.
:?

TF does "Jan 5th" have to do with anything, as if that date somehow negates what you said beforehand.
A mentor is a guide. One who may have provided guidance to me in person or who may have died before I was born and provided guidance through their published works, interviews or quotes. Formal trainers may or may not qualify as mentors. Now tou want to debate the quality of my definition of mentor?

The fuck we are.
Your dishonest namedropping of various people as so-called mentors has already been discuseed.

Now where are those PMs where I sought "counsel" and "guidance" and whatever from you.

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Re: Alice Miller on Primal Therapy

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We'll go to Merriam Webster.

Definition of mentor (Entry 1 of 3)

2a : a trusted counselor or guide
a mentor who, because he is detached and disinterested, can hold up a mirror to us
— P. W. Keve
b : TUTOR, COACH
The student sought a mentor in chemistry.

Synonyms:
adviser
coach
guide
instructor
teacher
trainer
tutor
counsellor

Generally, the word means, in its usual English usage, "this person trained me," not, "I read them and found them inspirational". It generally implies a "f2f" teacher-pupil sustained relationship.

You have mentioned Alice Miller many many times on this board. It's pure coincidence she's recommended top reading for every "Primal" web site on the planet - right?

Only some get around to discussing her later recriminations against PT ... why I started this thread. BTW, not all of them concerned Stettbacher.
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Re: Alice Miller on Primal Therapy

Post by Ike Bana »

The primary problem the perfesser is having regarding memory is that he can't seem to understand and/or accept that there is such a thing as a non-declarative memory that lacks cognitive reference.
Last edited by Ike Bana on Thu Jan 16, 2020 5:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Alice Miller on Primal Therapy

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Ike, would you be willing to accept that, whatever was wrong with your childhood, people who say they had an idyllic childhood (I would not be one of them) are not lying? Would you really claim all of them have your so-called "IP" syndrome or disorder? Doesn't that position seem ... zealous?

One last question: you once posted - in big bold caps - that Alice Miller was definitely right that the cause of all violence in this world is from the way people are parented.

Do you still stand by that second statement? BTW, I'm not saying there aren't plenty of bad parents and damaging parenting (abusive or otherwise) ... producing screwed up kids ... but ... that statement just seems to me to be kind of ... dogmatic.

I believe there is such a thing as declarative or implicit memory, here's what a good source says about it:

http://www.child-encyclopedia.com/brain ... evelopment" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Non-declarative memories are inaccessible to conscious awareness and include skill learning (e.g., knowing how to ride a bike) and priming (i.e., facilitated processing of a stimulus as a function of prior experience with it). Non-declarative memory is apparent virtually from birth. For example, infants show more robust processing of faces they have seen before relative to novel faces. However, when most people think of memory or “remembering” they think of declarative memories.

[snip][end]

You don't have to think about riding a bike. You just DO it. Once you learn how. You don't have to think about the fact you recognize somebody's face the next time you see it. You just do. Those are kinds of non-declarative memory. Without any conscious cognition.

Yes, infants appear capable of it. Learning how to walk is not something that requires conscious focus and effort. You just ... do it. (With some trial and error, of course.)

I don't think about shaving. I "just do it". "How to shave" is stored in my implicit, non-declarative memory. I don't think consciously through the steps. A good example.

There's plenty of sources on how implicit, non-declarative memory works. But, again, ... you seem to be talking about something else.
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Re: Alice Miller on Primal Therapy

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The other problem with the nature of memory is one I discussed earlier. The human brain does NOT store information like a computer on a hard drive. When we recall memories, it's almost like we are re-constructing them.

Eyewitness testimony is extremely unreliable and inaccurate. For this reason: people will say they remember being somewhere and something happening to them or near them, when in fact they only saw it on TV.

https://www.scientificamerican.com/arti ... s-have-it/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

When you ask people to recall significant events, they often get the details wrong.

What I'm dubious on is this idea that we carry around secret hidden memories that the therapist can "unlock" ... through any method. I believe therapists DEFINITELY need people to deal with past trauma ... I just don't think such events are usually "repressed" or hidden away. Also, much of that pain is from adulthood and later than childhood, though I'm not disagreeing how formative childhood experiences can be.
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