Seeking Power in Jesus’ Name. The Patriot Church

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JoeMemphis

Re: Seeking Power in Jesus’ Name. The Patriot Church

Post by JoeMemphis »

Drak wrote: Tue Oct 26, 2021 8:22 pm There are no values put upon Christians whereby they can't live as they see fit or believe, as long as they're not harming others. They don't have the right to push their religion into governance though, and force everyone else to live by their religious laws.
Religious laws are unconstitutional aren’t they? Separation of Church and State.

What we have are values. Your values are informed by your belief system and their values are informed by theirs. As long as it doesn’t violate the constitution and it’s passed thru our system, it’s the law. I don’t agree with all laws. But I do think we have an obligation to abide by them. That’s the system we have. We all have a right to live as we choose as long as we don’t harm others.
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Re: Seeking Power in Jesus’ Name. The Patriot Church

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Some of them feel like they are being forced to live by someone else’s value system.
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Re: Seeking Power in Jesus’ Name. The Patriot Church

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JoeMemphis wrote: Tue Oct 26, 2021 9:01 pm Religious laws are unconstitutional aren’t they? Separation of Church and State.

What we have are values. Your values are informed by your belief system and their values are informed by theirs. As long as it doesn’t violate the constitution and it’s passed thru our system, it’s the law. I don’t agree with all laws. But I do think we have an obligation to abide by them. That’s the system we have. We all have a right to live as we choose as long as we don’t harm others.
Conservative Christian whites have inflicted incalculable harm on others through more than 350 years of repressive, authoritarian, punitive, and genocidal laws. Including other whites, and often starting with them.

Based on your belief systems.
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carmenjonze
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Re: Seeking Power in Jesus’ Name. The Patriot Church

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Glennfs calls the Bible a book of truth. What truth is the Tamar story supposed to convey, I wonder.

Genesis 38 (KJV)
And it came to pass at that time, that Judah went down from his brethren, and turned in to a certain Adullamite, whose name was Hirah.

2 And Judah saw there a daughter of a certain Canaanite, whose name was Shuah; and he took her, and went in unto her.

3 And she conceived, and bare a son; and he called his name Er.

4 And she conceived again, and bare a son; and she called his name Onan.

5 And she yet again conceived, and bare a son; and called his name Shelah: and he was at Chezib, when she bare him.

6 And Judah took a wife for Er his firstborn, whose name was Tamar.

7 And Er, Judah's firstborn, was wicked in the sight of the Lord; and the Lord slew him.

8 And Judah said unto Onan, Go in unto thy brother's wife, and marry her, and raise up seed to thy brother.

9 And Onan knew that the seed should not be his; and it came to pass, when he went in unto his brother's wife, that he spilled it on the ground, lest that he should give seed to his brother.

10 And the thing which he did displeased the Lord: wherefore he slew him also.

11 Then said Judah to Tamar his daughter in law, Remain a widow at thy father's house, till Shelah my son be grown: for he said, Lest peradventure he die also, as his brethren did. And Tamar went and dwelt in her father's house.

12 And in process of time the daughter of Shuah Judah's wife died; and Judah was comforted, and went up unto his sheepshearers to Timnath, he and his friend Hirah the Adullamite.

13 And it was told Tamar, saying, Behold thy father in law goeth up to Timnath to shear his sheep.

14 And she put her widow's garments off from her, and covered her with a vail, and wrapped herself, and sat in an open place, which is by the way to Timnath; for she saw that Shelah was grown, and she was not given unto him to wife.

15 When Judah saw her, he thought her to be an harlot; because she had covered her face.

6 And he turned unto her by the way, and said, Go to, I pray thee, let me come in unto thee; (for he knew not that she was his daughter in law.) And she said, What wilt thou give me, that thou mayest come in unto me?

17 And he said, I will send thee a kid from the flock. And she said, Wilt thou give me a pledge, till thou send it?

18 And he said, What pledge shall I give thee? And she said, Thy signet, and thy bracelets, and thy staff that is in thine hand. And he gave it her, and came in unto her, and she conceived by him.

19 And she arose, and went away, and laid by her vail from her, and put on the garments of her widowhood.

20 And Judah sent the kid by the hand of his friend the Adullamite, to receive his pledge from the woman's hand: but he found her not.

21 Then he asked the men of that place, saying, Where is the harlot, that was openly by the way side? And they said, There was no harlot in this place.

22 And he returned to Judah, and said, I cannot find her; and also the men of the place said, that there was no harlot in this place.

23 And Judah said, Let her take it to her, lest we be shamed: behold, I sent this kid, and thou hast not found her.

24 And it came to pass about three months after, that it was told Judah, saying, Tamar thy daughter in law hath played the harlot; and also, behold, she is with child by whoredom. And Judah said, Bring her forth, and let her be burnt.

25 When she was brought forth, she sent to her father in law, saying, By the man, whose these are, am I with child: and she said, Discern, I pray thee, whose are these, the signet, and bracelets, and staff.

26 And Judah acknowledged them, and said, She hath been more righteous than I; because that I gave her not to Shelah my son. And he knew her again no more.

27 And it came to pass in the time of her travail, that, behold, twins were in her womb.

28 And it came to pass, when she travailed, that the one put out his hand: and the midwife took and bound upon his hand a scarlet thread, saying, This came out first.

29 And it came to pass, as he drew back his hand, that, behold, his brother came out: and she said, How hast thou broken forth? this breach be upon thee: therefore his name was called Pharez.

30 And afterward came out his brother, that had the scarlet thread upon his hand: and his name was called Zarah.
The women of the Bible endured really sh#tty treatment even under the nicest circumstances. No wonder conservative Christians are so shot through with vicious misogyny.
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Drak
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Re: Seeking Power in Jesus’ Name. The Patriot Church

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JoeMemphis wrote: Tue Oct 26, 2021 9:01 pm Religious laws are unconstitutional aren’t they? Separation of Church and State.

What we have are values. Your values are informed by your belief system and their values are informed by theirs. As long as it doesn’t violate the constitution and it’s passed thru our system, it’s the law. I don’t agree with all laws. But I do think we have an obligation to abide by them. That’s the system we have. We all have a right to live as we choose as long as we don’t harm others.

Again, religious people, Christians, can live by the standard they want as long as it's not causing others harm. They cannot impose their religious beliefs into laws though, that infringe on others. Conservatives are attempting to do so. Separation of Church and State.

Sorry, but Christians have no business telling a woman what she can and can't do with her body with a law. They have no business telling LGBT that they cannot marry, by law. They have no business making it a law, or bylaw, to have Christian prayer before school, or make people go to Church, or to close shop on Sundays, etc.

As far as moral code into law, that can be common ground with secular ideals.
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Re: Seeking Power in Jesus’ Name. The Patriot Church

Post by carmenjonze »

By the way, one of the euphemisms for masturbation and coitus interruptus is "onanism," which is still considered a sin by conservative Christians spanning the range of Christianity, including Catholic, Protestant, and Orthodox conservative Christians.

It comes from the Tamar story, in which she was raped by her half brother, and their father -- the famous David -- did nothing about it.

Here's the Jewish Virtual Library take on onanism.

Onanism
ONANISM, term derived from the biblical narrative of Onan, son of Judah (Gen. 38, 7–10), who "spilled" his seed "on the ground." Onanism refers to the thwarting of the sexual process in one of several ways. In Hebrew, it is called more fully ma'aseh Er ve-Onan ("the act of Er and Onan") and is taken by the Midrash (Gen. R. 85:5; and by Rashi to the Pentateuch) to mean coitus interruptus and by the Talmud (Yev. 34b) to refer either to unnatural intercourse or (cf. Nid. 13a) to masturbation. The Zohar (Va-Yeshev, p. 188a; Va-Yeḥi, p. 219b) expatiates on the evil of onanism in the last sense, which condemnation then entered the Shulhan Arukh (EH, 23:2) to underscore the gravity of the sin of hashḥatat zera ("improper emission of seed"). Halakhically, there is a question whether the prohibition against onanism, in any sense, is a prohibition of biblical or of rabbinic force.
More in link.

The Bible is a book of truths. Some people say.
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The way to right wrongs is to
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~ Ida B. Wells
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JoeMemphis

Re: Seeking Power in Jesus’ Name. The Patriot Church

Post by JoeMemphis »

Drak wrote: Tue Oct 26, 2021 10:07 pm Again, religious people, Christians, can live by the standard they want as long as it's not causing others harm. They cannot impose their religious beliefs into laws though, that infringe on others. Conservatives are attempting to do so. Separation of Church and State.

Sorry, but Christians have no business telling a woman what she can and can't do with her body with a law. They have no business telling LGBT that they cannot marry, by law. They have no business making it a law, or bylaw, to have Christian prayer before school, or make people go to Church, or to close shop on Sundays, etc.

As far as moral code into law, that can be common ground with secular ideals.
So if a group of atheists opposed abortion that wouldn’t be a religious law? Abortion is a value judgement. I know people who aren’t especially religious that don’t favor abortion. Whose to say where the values come from? There are values shared by religious people that are also shared by secular folks. Are they religious laws or secular laws?

Religious people have the same right to promote and support their value system as anyone else as long as said values and said laws do not otherwise violate the constitution. You don’t get to suppress the right of people to be heard on issues and values just because you don’t agree with what informs their value system.
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Re: Seeking Power in Jesus’ Name. The Patriot Church

Post by carmenjonze »

JoeMemphis wrote: Tue Oct 26, 2021 10:30 pm So if a group of atheists opposed abortion that wouldn’t be a religious law?
:? atheists by self-definition are without religion.
Abortion is a value judgement.
Abortion is not a "value judgment." That is conservative-Christian reframing and ideology.

Abortion is personal autonomy in reproduction, and the right to be free from government coersion in pregnancy and childbearing. Even prochoice Republicans are bright enough to understand this.
I know people who aren’t especially religious that don’t favor abortion. Whose to say where the values come from? There are values shared by religious people that are also shared by secular folks. Are they religious laws or secular laws?
Religious conservatives are the driving force behind your precious anti-abortion politics.
Religious people have the same right to promote and support their value system as anyone else as long as said values and said laws do not otherwise violate the constitution. You don’t get to suppress the right of people to be heard on issues and values just because you don’t agree with what informs their value system.
Supremacist canard.

Absolutely no one is suppressing the right of conservative religious fascists "to be heard." The fact that you think that pushing back against these repressive laws is silencing conservative Christians is very instructive for how and why segregation lasted so long as the law of the land here.

Conservative religious fascists, on the other hand, are definitely seeking to inflict harm on, criminalize, and use the government to punish people who live our own lives outside of the dictates of these so-called values.
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The way to right wrongs is to
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~ Ida B. Wells
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Tao Jones Sr.
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Re: Seeking Power in Jesus’ Name. The Patriot Church

Post by Tao Jones Sr. »

I know people who aren’t especially religious that don’t favor abortion.
So?
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Re: Seeking Power in Jesus’ Name. The Patriot Church

Post by marindem01 »

Tao Jones Sr. wrote: Wed Oct 27, 2021 12:03 amSo?
Apparently only "Religious People" can be Pro-Life (Read as Anti-Woman).
Love of Country is not Blind Patriotism. It is not devotion to one person or one party. It is knowing fighting for your country is single most important thing you can do. Do not accept the notion violence is the answer.
JoeMemphis

Re: Seeking Power in Jesus’ Name. The Patriot Church

Post by JoeMemphis »

Tao Jones Sr. wrote: Wed Oct 27, 2021 12:03 amSo?
So abortion isn’t exclusively a religious issue as has been suggested.
Regulations and laws pertaining to abortion are not “religious laws” in my view. That’s not to say that many religious people vocally and loudly oppose abortion. They do. But there are other people who also do not favor unregulated abortion and not all these folks are religious. To them it’s a question of when life begins and when that life has rights. That discussion has been had on this board many times. It’s a tough issue and a tough question.
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Drak
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Re: Seeking Power in Jesus’ Name. The Patriot Church

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JoeMemphis wrote: Tue Oct 26, 2021 10:30 pm So if a group of atheists opposed abortion that wouldn’t be a religious law? Abortion is a value judgement. I know people who aren’t especially religious that don’t favor abortion. Whose to say where the values come from? There are values shared by religious people that are also shared by secular folks. Are they religious laws or secular laws?

Religious people have the same right to promote and support their value system as anyone else as long as said values and said laws do not otherwise violate the constitution. You don’t get to suppress the right of people to be heard on issues and values just because you don’t agree with what informs their value system.
I made my points already. and Atheism isn’t a religion. Your post doesn’t make sense about the right to be heard etc, But I’m going to direct you to Carmen’s response because she addressed it well and there’s no point in repeating.

I wonder how Conservatives would feel if elected Muslims started pushing their religion into laws.
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Are the same that burn crosses"

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JoeMemphis

Re: Seeking Power in Jesus’ Name. The Patriot Church

Post by JoeMemphis »

Drak wrote: Wed Oct 27, 2021 8:58 am I made my points already. and Atheism isn’t a religion. Your post doesn’t make sense about the right to be heard etc, But I’m going to direct you to Carmen’s response because she addressed it well and there’s no point in repeating.

I wonder how Conservatives would feel if elected Muslims started pushing their religion into laws.
Religious laws are unconstitutional. I have no problem with Muslims being part of the political process.
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Drak
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Re: Seeking Power in Jesus’ Name. The Patriot Church

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JoeMemphis wrote: Wed Oct 27, 2021 9:17 am Religious laws are unconstitutional. I have no problem with Muslims being part of the political process.
Huh?
"Some of those that work forces,
Are the same that burn crosses"

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Re: Seeking Power in Jesus’ Name. The Patriot Church

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JoeMemphis wrote: Wed Oct 27, 2021 8:25 amSo abortion isn’t exclusively a religious issue
Religious Belief has nothing to do with Abortion. In Numbers, the Magic Sky Man tells wives how to get of an unwanted child. Religion is a cop out for simply want to exercise control over a Woman's Reproductive Rights.

Abortion is about Men controlling a Woman's Body. Men hate the idea that Women have the right to decide what medical procedures and prescription drugs a Woman take.

The idea that banning Abortion will end it is beyond the of any sane belief. Rich, White Women will still be able to go to some out of state "Spa" for their "Treatments".

Religion is used as a weapon against Women. Nothing more and nothingless.
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Drak
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Re: Seeking Power in Jesus’ Name. The Patriot Church

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BTW, no one has the "Right to be heard."

You have the right to believe and say what you believe, but you don't have the right to make others listen to it or believe it.
"Some of those that work forces,
Are the same that burn crosses"

- Rage Against the Machine
JoeMemphis

Re: Seeking Power in Jesus’ Name. The Patriot Church

Post by JoeMemphis »

Drak wrote: Wed Oct 27, 2021 9:21 amHuh?
You asked a question. I answered it. The constitution provides for separation of church and state. I don’t think that purely religious laws from a Muslim perspective would pass constitutional muster anymore than Christian, Jewish, or Hindu laws. As far as participating in democracy Muslims citizens have as much right to participate as any other citizen.

You asked how a conservative would feel. So I answered as a conservative. Hope that clarification helped.
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Re: Seeking Power in Jesus’ Name. The Patriot Church

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JoeMemphis wrote: Tue Oct 26, 2021 10:30 pm So if a group of atheists opposed abortion that wouldn’t be a religious law? Abortion is a value judgement. I know people who aren’t especially religious that don’t favor abortion. Whose to say where the values come from? There are values shared by religious people that are also shared by secular folks. Are they religious laws or secular laws?

Religious people have the same right to promote and support their value system as anyone else as long as said values and said laws do not otherwise violate the constitution. You don’t get to suppress the right of people to be heard on issues and values just because you don’t agree with what informs their value system.
NO! Atheism isn't a religion. It's the complete lack of religion!

How stupid can you be?
JoeMemphis

Re: Seeking Power in Jesus’ Name. The Patriot Church

Post by JoeMemphis »

Drak wrote: Wed Oct 27, 2021 9:32 am BTW, no one has the "Right to be heard."

You have the right to believe and say what you believe, but you don't have the right to make others listen to it or believe it.
I don’t think I ever claimed that anyone has a right to force their beliefs on others. I will gladly rephrase and say that we all have a right to free speech.
JoeMemphis

Re: Seeking Power in Jesus’ Name. The Patriot Church

Post by JoeMemphis »

gounion wrote: Wed Oct 27, 2021 9:36 am NO! Atheism isn't a religion. It's the complete lack of religion!

How stupid can you be?
Call it what you want. It is a belief system. If you don’t believe in a deity then that’s part of your belief system. You may lack religion but you still have a belief system. Religious people have a different belief system. Their values are informed by their belief system just like your values are formed by yours. Many of the values are shared.

So my point is that purely religious laws are unconstitutional. However, that doesn’t mean that religious citizens aren’t allowed to bring their value system to the table or into the voting booth. And it doesn’t mean that all of those values are strictly religious.
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Re: Seeking Power in Jesus’ Name. The Patriot Church

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JoeMemphis wrote: Wed Oct 27, 2021 9:46 am Call it what you want. It is a belief system. If you don’t believe is a deity then that’s part of your belief system. You may lack religion fit you still have a belief system. Religious people have a different belief system. Their values are informed by their belief system just like your values are formed by yours. Many of the values are shared.
No, it's not. That's simply false. It's a LACK of belief in a deity. That's not a belief system. Not in any way, shape or form.

My values are based upon things like the Enlightenment, and reason.

It is NOT the equivilant of a religion.
So my point is that purely religious laws are unconstitutional. However, that doesn’t mean that religious citizens aren’t allowed to bring their value system to the table or into the voting booth. And it doesn’t mean that some of those values are strictly religious.
THAT depends upon who is deciding what is Constitutional, now, doesn't it? And it's obvious that several of the judges are deciding what is Consitutional based upon what their religious beliefs are. That's why they will knock down Roe v Wade. That's why several of them voted AGAINST gay marriage.

Let's remember about gay marriage - the horrors put upon gays in our history is caused by laws based upon religion. Nothing else.

So, it's easy for you to act like none of this is happening, because you AGREE with what they're doing. That's why you vote for them.
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Drak
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Re: Seeking Power in Jesus’ Name. The Patriot Church

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JoeMemphis wrote: Wed Oct 27, 2021 9:46 am Call it what you want. It is a belief system.

No, it's not. It's the lack of belief.
"Some of those that work forces,
Are the same that burn crosses"

- Rage Against the Machine
JoeMemphis

Re: Seeking Power in Jesus’ Name. The Patriot Church

Post by JoeMemphis »

gounion wrote: Wed Oct 27, 2021 10:00 am No, it's not. That's simply false. It's a LACK of belief in a deity. That's not a belief system. Not in any way, shape or form.

My values are based upon things like the Enlightenment, and reason.

It is NOT the equivilant of a religion.

THAT depends upon who is deciding what is Constitutional, now, doesn't it? And it's obvious that several of the judges are deciding what is Consitutional based upon what their religious beliefs are. That's why they will knock down Roe v Wade. That's why several of them voted AGAINST gay marriage.

Let's remember about gay marriage - the horrors put upon gays in our history is caused by laws based upon religion. Nothing else.

So, it's easy for you to act like none of this is happening, because you AGREE with what they're doing. That's why you vote for them.
We don’t agree or have to agree on what is or is not a belief system.

As far as the courts, judges are people just like us. However, their business requires them to set aside their personal beliefs in favor of the law. I think most of them are pretty good at it. I don’t agree with every ruling or the viewpoint of every judge however I don’t question that most of them try to be objective and try to get it right. We don’t have to agree on this either.

As an aside, I supported gay marriage. Equal protection under the law. Ask JDogg.
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Re: Seeking Power in Jesus’ Name. The Patriot Church

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JoeMemphis wrote: Wed Oct 27, 2021 9:46 amCall it what you want.
An Atheist does not believe god, being an Atheist means you do not believe in god. Atheism NOT a religion. Atheism in 180 Degrees opposite of having a religious belief.

The U.S. Constitution mentions Religion or Religious Practice two times and two time only. There can be no state sponsored religion and no person can be denied a job based upon the religious belief or lack there of.

Atheism is NOT a religion.

Your Right to Freedom of Religion is as equal to my Right To Freedom From Religion. I do want to believe in a Monotheistic Mystical Mythical Magical Non-Existent Sky Man.

IF YOU, as a private want to engage in your own religious practice, go for it. But do not pretend that you have a right to lecture others who do not want such a religious practice. Keep your version of your god to yourself
Love of Country is not Blind Patriotism. It is not devotion to one person or one party. It is knowing fighting for your country is single most important thing you can do. Do not accept the notion violence is the answer.
JoeMemphis

Re: Seeking Power in Jesus’ Name. The Patriot Church

Post by JoeMemphis »

marindem01 wrote: Wed Oct 27, 2021 10:16 am An Atheist does not believe god, being an Atheist means you do not believe in god. Atheism NOT a religion. Atheism in 180 Degrees opposite of having a religious belief.

The U.S. Constitution mentions Religion or Religious Practice two times and two time only. There can be no state sponsored religion and no person can be denied a job based upon the religious belief or lack there of.

Atheism is NOT a religion.

Your Right to Freedom of Religion is as equal to my Right To Freedom From Religion. I do want to believe in a Monotheistic Mystical Mythical Magical Non-Existent Sky Man.

IF YOU, as a private want to engage in your own religious practice, go for it. But do not pretend that you have a right to lecture others who do not want such a religious practice. Keep your version of your god to yourself
And you should do the same. After all wouldn’t want to force your beliefs on others.
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