War and Peace

[gounion]

Oh look who is losing another argument so they resort to swearing and personal attacks.

https://ago.mo.gov/attorney-general-bai ... -policies/

18 states AGs disagree with your opinion of Biden's border policies.
Are they also lying sacks of shit?

Show me any proof that Biden has completely opened up the southern border. You can't.

It's you and Joe that are lying sacks of shit.

But hey, Trump told you so, so it's true, right?

[ProfX]

Biden may not be doing what some people want at the Southern border, (i.e. building as much wall as they want, or placing military troops there, or putting razor wire in our bodies of water) ... I simply disagree he is refusing to enforce the law. He has not disbanded the Border Patrol, nor told them not to enforce the law. Sanctuary cities are a different matter, but Biden has never said he supports them. (But maybe at least unlike Trump he isn't threatening their Mayors.)

As for prosecutorial and judicial discretion, it's part of the law. Should someone who loots a store for food and medicine after a major disaster when their children are starving be prosecuted and given the same sentence as a guy who shoplifted a whole bunch of TVs? I did not say both people should not be prosecuted at all. But I don't have a problem with a judge deciding the sentence might be different given the two situations/circumstances. I believe judicial discretion is part of the job and why we have judges. Justice needs to be tempered with mercy.

If there is no human consideration of circumstances in the process, we might as well have it all done by AI.

[gounion]

Here's a live view of the San Ysidro border crossing. https://alltrafficcams.com/live/border- ... o-tijuana/

Proof both Joe and Glenn are lying - the border isn't "opened up" and free traffic allowed.

They LIKE to lie, don't they?

[Drak]

During the last administration, Republicans also cried about open borders and then blamed the Dems, when THEY CONTROLLED ALL BRANCHES OF GOVERNMENT. It was non stop caravans and “we’re being invaded!” coverage. The conservatives here, like all MAGA, are very easy to manipulate.

[JoeMemphis]

Biden may not be doing what some people want at the Southern border, (i.e. building as much wall as they want, or placing military troops there, or putting razor wire in our bodies of water) ... I simply disagree he is refusing to enforce the law. He has not disbanded the Border Patrol, nor told them not to enforce the law. Sanctuary cities are a different matter, but Biden has never said he supports them. (But maybe at least unlike Trump he isn't threatening their Mayors.)

As for prosecutorial and judicial discretion, it's part of the law. Should someone who loots a store for food and medicine after a major disaster when their children are starving be prosecuted and given the same sentence as a guy who shoplifted a whole bunch of TVs? I did not say both people should not be prosecuted at all. But I don't have a problem with a judge deciding the sentence might be different given the two situations/circumstances. I believe judicial discretion is part of the job and why we have judges. Justice needs to be tempered with mercy.

If there is no human consideration of circumstances in the process, we might as well have it all done by AI.

As far as the border is concerned, all anyone needs to do is look at the numbers pre Biden and the numbers now. So we went from something that wasn’t perfect but was working reasonably well to something that isn’t working at all and is placing a strain on our infrastructure. Not to mention an administration that is doing little to nothing to deal with the problem. Suffice to say, this administrations policy or lack thereof has made the problem much worse and the poll numbers on the border reflect public opinion.

The same can be said for the use of prosecutorial discretion. These aren’t people stealing to feed their children. This is DA’s deciding based on social factors whom they will prosecute. Thats not how the law is supposed to work. Justice is supposed to be blind in that regard. Instead we now have a justice system that isn’t blind, it just looks the other way. It’s now impotent when it comes to making us safer and dealing with crime. Nobody is safer as a result. The law means nothing. We are just conditioning and enabling more crime.

[gounion]

As far as the border is concerned, all anyone needs to do is look at the numbers pre Biden and the numbers now. So we went from something that wasn’t perfect but was working reasonably well to something that isn’t working at all and is placing a strain on our infrastructure. Not to mention an administration that is doing little to nothing to deal with the problem. Suffice to say, this administrations policy or lack thereof has made the problem much worse and the poll numbers on the border reflect public opinion.

Just the usual lies. Yeah, the border's fine when Republicans are in charge, it's completely open when Dems are in charge. What a bunch of bullshit.

Still waiting for the links proving the border is completely open, or a retraction and apology. You have no ethics, so you'll never do it. Trump taught you to never admit to error or lying, and you're his rapt student.

The same can be said for the use of prosecutorial discretion. These aren’t people stealing to feed their children. This is DA’s deciding based on social factors whom they will prosecute. Thats not how the law is supposed to work. Justice is supposed to be blind in that regard. Instead we now have a justice system that isn’t blind, it just looks the other way. It’s now impotent when it comes to making us safer and dealing with crime. Nobody is safer as a result. The law means nothing. We are just conditioning and enabling more crime.

Wow, you just keep lying. That's NOT how the law is supposed to work. Ignorance is your superpower, isn't it?

[Drak]

Just the usual lies. Yeah, the border's fine when Republicans are in charge, it's completely open when Dems are in charge. What a bunch of bullshit.

Still waiting for the links proving the border is completely open, or a retraction and apology. You have no ethics, so you'll never do it. Trump taught you to never admit to error or lying, and you're his rapt student.

Wow, you just keep lying. That's NOT how the law is supposed to work. Ignorance is your superpower, isn't it?

When has Joememphis ever posted a link to anything he claims? I’ve never seen it. Just as he’ll never say who he voted for.

[ProfX]

So we went from something that wasn’t perfect

Yeah, I disagree. The Trump policy (particularly of forcible child separation) was more than imperfect. It also probably was illegal and violated the Constitution and international law.

What Trump is proposing he will do if he returns to power (mass deportations without hearings) is also illegal, but a different subject.

The same can be said for the use of prosecutorial discretion. These aren’t people stealing to feed their children. This is DA’s deciding based on social factors whom they will prosecute. Thats not how the law is supposed to work. Justice is supposed to be blind in that regard. Instead we now have a justice system that isn’t blind, it just looks the other way. It’s now impotent when it comes to making us safer and dealing with crime. Nobody is safer as a result. The law means nothing. We are just conditioning and enabling more crime.

I believe a Black defendant and a white defendant should be treated the same. Justice should be blind to race, to ethnicity, to religion, and other factors of that nature. If that is what you mean by "social factors".

It should also be mostly blind even to social class, but our justice system doesn't work that way, rich folks get advantages (namely the best lawyers) the poor do not. I am not saying poor defendants should always be treated more leniently. But we have to make sure they get public defenders, and again, I would pay attention to circumstances.

Alternative sentencing, for example, for juveniles, is also a thing, and sometimes juvenile first offenders should be offered alternatives to prison. Depends on the crime (not murder, of course). I support that, also.

[JoeMemphis]

Yeah, I disagree. The Trump policy (particularly of forcible child separation) was more than imperfect. It also probably was illegal and violated the Constitution and international law.

What Trump is proposing he will do if he returns to power (mass deportations without hearings) is also illegal, but a different subject.



I believe a Black defendant and a white defendant should be treated the same. Justice should be blind to race, to ethnicity, to religion, and other factors of that nature. If that is what you mean by "social factors".

It should also be mostly blind even to social class, but our justice system doesn't work that way, rich folks get advantages (namely the best lawyers) the poor do not. I am not saying poor defendants should always be treated more leniently. But we have to make sure they get public defenders, and again, I would pay attention to circumstances.

Alternative sentencing, for example, for juveniles, is also a thing, and sometimes juvenile first offenders should be offered alternatives to prison. Depends on the crime (not murder, of course). I support that, also.

I said it wasn’t perfect. Mistakes were made. However, that doesn’t justify in the least what is happening on the border. Remain in Mexico did work. Catch and release doesn’t work. And to believe that all of these folks qualify for asylum is BS and to believe they are going to show up in three to four years for a hearing is fantasy. Further there is no plan what to do with all these folks. It is straining the infrastructure of our social programs and educational programs across the country. And what does the administration do? Not much. I saw today the NYC is cutting first responders and other social services in order to fund the migrant problem. They are a sanctuary city so I guess they are getting what they voted for. But the rest of the country didn’t sign onto that. There is simply no excuse for this dereliction of duty. None what so ever.

As for crime and the law, I agree justice should be blind. We know and have known for decades that 80% of crime is committed by the 20% habitual criminals. So why then are these DA’s releasing these folks back into the streets to reoffend? And don’t fool yourself, they aren’t stealing food and clothing. This is a losing strategy. Nobody is safer. If these folks aren’t going to enforce the law and protect the public, they need to find another profession. They are violating their oath of office. They aren’t in law enforcement. They are enabling criminal bad behavior.

[gounion]

I said it wasn’t perfect. Mistakes were made. However, that doesn’t justify in the least what is happening on the border. Remain in Mexico did work. Catch and release doesn’t work. And to believe that all of these folks qualify for asylum is BS and to believe they are going to show up in three to four years for a hearing is fantasy. Further there is no plan what to do with all these folks. It is straining the infrastructure of our social programs and educational programs across the country. And what does the administration do? Not much. I saw today the NYC is cutting first responders and other social services in order to fund the migrant problem. They are a sanctuary city so I guess they are getting what they voted for. But the rest of the country didn’t sign onto that. There is simply no excuse for this dereliction of duty. None what so ever.

As for crime and the law, I agree justice should be blind. We know and have known for decades that 80% of crime is committed by the 20% habitual criminals. So why then are these DA’s releasing these folks back into the streets to reoffend? And don’t fool yourself, they aren’t stealing food and clothing. This is a losing strategy. Nobody is safer. If these folks aren’t going to enforce the law and protect the public, they need to find another profession. They are violating their oath of office. They aren’t in law enforcement. They are enabling criminal bad behavior.

Wow, you continue to just make shit up out of whole cloth - or what Trump tells you to say.

If you look at historical numbers, crime is DOWN. But you don’t care about facts, do you?

And it’s funny you talk about crime, but don’t say a word about the criminality in YOUR party. You don’t mind the attack on our Capitol. But you’re sooo damned concerned about Black Lives Matter, aren’t you? You don’t give a fuck for police crime.

Go ahead, show us links to prove your points. You can’t. You just keep making shit up.

[ProfX]

I said it wasn’t perfect. Mistakes were made.

That's a nice, passive-voice way of neutralizing what happened.

Personally, I don't think illegal actions, such as the ones they undertook, create respect for the law.

So why then are these DA’s releasing these folks back into the streets to reoffend?

Until I know who you're speaking of, I have no answer for your question. I can only deal with problems that actually exist.

If what you are saying is true, show me some evidence that it is true. I don't know of any DAs that are committed to allowing habitual offenders to reoffend.

[gounion]

That's a nice, passive-voice way of neutralizing what happened.

Personally, I don't think illegal actions, such as the ones they undertook, create respect for the law.

Until I know who you're speaking of, I have no answer for your question. I can only deal with problems that actually exist.

If what you are saying is true, show me some evidence that it is true. I don't know of any DAs that are committed to allowing habitual offenders to reoffend.

Joe’s dishonesty really shows in his post. Oh, everything on the border is BIDEN’S fault, but during the Trump administration? Oh, it’s the old “mistakes were made” in Joe’s best passive/aggressive bullshit. But nooooo, he doesn’t support Trump AT ALL, but it sure seems every time that he runs quickly to cover for him, doesn’t he? Everything is just GOP talking points, and nowhere near anything resembling facts.

[JoeMemphis]

That's a nice, passive-voice way of neutralizing what happened.

Personally, I don't think illegal actions, such as the ones they undertook, create respect for the law.



Until I know who you're speaking of, I have no answer for your question. I can only deal with problems that actually exist.

If what you are saying is true, show me some evidence that it is true. I don't know of any DAs that are committed to allowing habitual offenders to reoffend.

I didn’t neutralize anything. I also think turning your head when tens of thousands of unaccompanied minors are turned over to adults whom we know little to nothing about and have no way to track or follow up creates any respect for the law.

Further just because you choose to look the other way and ignore what is happening doesn’t mean it isn’t happening. But if you think these DA’s are doing a fine job controlling crime and protecting the public, that’s up to you. Keep voting for them or for the people who support them. Personally, I like living in an environment where the public feels safe to walk the streets and you don’t have to lock toothpaste up behind glass in the Walgreens. But that’s me. If you look the other way and pretend it isn’t happening, that’s up to you.

[gounion]

I didn’t neutralize anything. I also think turning your head when tens of thousands of unaccompanied minors are turned over to adults whom we know little to nothing about and have no way to track or follow up creates any respect for the law.

Further just because you choose to look the other way and ignore what is happening doesn’t mean it isn’t happening. But if you think these DA’s are doing a fine job controlling crime and protecting the public, that’s up to you. Keep voting for them or for the people who support them. Personally, I like living in an environment where the public feels safe to walk the streets and you don’t have to lock toothpaste up behind glass in the Walgreens. But that’s me. If you look the other way and pretend it isn’t happening, that’s up to you.

And just because you SAY something is happening, doesn’t mean it’s happening. You say Biden completely “Opened our borders”.

And that makes YOU a lying sack of shit.

[ProfX]

I didn’t neutralize anything. I also think turning your head when tens of thousands of unaccompanied minors are turned over to adults whom we know little to nothing about and have no way to track or follow up creates any respect for the law.

Again, policy is to turn those children over to the closest living relatives. Like when Elian Gonzalez was here, his great uncle and cousin took custody of him. (Only problem is his father was still alive, but in Cuba but I digress). I don't believe they don't check the relatives' relationship, status, criminal history, etc. If they are close kin and have a clean record, I don't see the problem.

Better than turning them over to strangers with weird "readopting" agencies like the DeVos', I think.

Further just because you choose to look the other way and ignore what is happening doesn’t mean it isn’t happening. But if you think these DA’s are doing a fine job controlling crime and protecting the public, that’s up to you. Keep voting for them or for the people who support them. Personally, I like living in an environment where the public feels safe to walk the streets and you don’t have to lock toothpaste up behind glass in the Walgreens. But that’s me. If you look the other way and pretend it isn’t happening, that’s up to you.

Again, look what other way? Our local South Florida DA does not release or refuse to prosecute habitual offenders. If you're talking about somebody else, tell me who you are talking about. It's not something I would support.

[JoeMemphis]

Again, policy is to turn those children over to the closest living relatives. Like when Elian Gonzalez was here, his great uncle and cousin took custody of him. (Only problem is his father was still alive, but in Cuba but I digress). I don't believe they don't check the relatives' relationship, status, criminal history, etc. If they are close kin and have a clean record, I don't see the problem.

Better than turning them over to strangers with weird "readopting" agencies like the DeVos', I think.



Again, look what other way? Our local South Florida DA does not release or refuse to prosecute habitual offenders. If you're talking about somebody else, tell me who you are talking about. It's not something I would support.

As I recall the policy prior to the pandemic and prior to Trump was that you could not house minors with adults and thus they were separated. I don’t believe separating those kids was someone’s idea of fun and games.

As far as crime, you are right. It’s not a problem. Ignore it.

[gounion]

As I recall the policy prior to the pandemic and prior to Trump was that you could not house minors with adults and thus they were separated. I don’t believe separating those kids was someone’s idea of fun and games.

As far as crime, you are right. It’s not a problem. Ignore it.

You recall wrong. The policy was on purpose. But then, you always work for Trump, don't you? https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/immigr ... s-n1245171

[bradman]

Lots of things bother me Brad. Government officials ignoring laws that bother them is one of them. If you don’t like how laws are tailored, change the law. But if you aren’t going to enforce the laws as written without fear or favor, don’t take the job and don’t swear an oath to protect and defend the law. We have prosecutors who ignore laws and call it prosecutorial discretion. That’s just bullshit. We have a President that has completely opened our southern border and chooses to enforce our immigration laws. So if he can and those DA’s can just ignore the law, what does the rule of law mean? Thats what bothers me Brad. Does it bother you?

A lot of things bother me. Misinformation being the biggest bother of all.

[gounion]

A lot of things bother me. Misinformation being the biggest bother of all.

Would that be because NOTHING in Joe’s post was factual?

It’s something how they ignore reality and say Dear Leader would never do such a thing?

[bradman]

Would that be because NOTHING in Joe’s post was factual?

It’s something how they ignore reality and say Dear Leader would never do such a thing?

Truth is in the eye of the beholder.


https://medium.com/@moran.dominic/truth ... 1bdcdfe1db
Truth Is in the Eye of the Beholder in the Mis-Information Age

Stay curious in this time of crisis!
When I was a young boy, following altercations with one of my seven brothers, one or the other would run to my parents crying. As with most parents, the priority was to establish the facts to attribute blame and punishment. I would always give a detailed account of every comment and action that led up to the incident. And my recounting had more information than my parents had the patience to bear. “And then he said, and then I said” became the running joke.

Despite the story being my version of the truth — likely biased towards my innocence or justification for any wrongdoing, my parents just stopped listening, inflicting the same punishment on both of us. I was trying to give my parents the complete picture, which should include all details connected to the outcome (although the length of my story often correlated with the level of guilt!). Now I am older, I’ve come to learn that the truth has many faces, and the contrarian in me can often be found switching arguments depending on the audience. On occasion, motivated by mischievousness, but more often by my desire to examine a topic from all angles.

[JoeMemphis]

A lot of things bother me. Misinformation being the biggest bother of all.

Ya mean like “the border is closed”?

These days when people hear things they don’t like it’s classed as misinformation.

So I tell you what. If folks don’t agree it’s a problem. That’s okay with me. Ignore it. In the end voters will decide on their own who and what they believe. I’m okay with that.

[gounion]

Ya mean like “the border is closed”?

These days when people hear things they don’t like it’s classed as misinformation.

So I tell you what. If folks don’t agree it’s a problem. That’s okay with me. Ignore it. In the end voters will decide on their own who and what they believe. I’m okay with that.

You said Biden had the border “completely open”. You lied, of course. Now you’re pretending, like an idiot, that if the border isn’t completely open, then it’s completely closed.

Are you such an idiot that that the only two options?

You are a fucking liar. But then, we ALL know that.

[gounion]

Truth is in the eye of the beholder.


https://medium.com/@moran.dominic/truth ... 1bdcdfe1db
Truth Is in the Eye of the Beholder in the Mis-Information Age

No. There are REAL truths, dude. Saying that Biden “completely opened” the border is objectively false. I realize this is what Trump does - it’s called GASLIGHTING.

Saying that Biden “completely opened” the border is just plain false. If Joe’s too fucking stupid to not understand that, it’s on him.

[ProfX]

As I recall the policy prior to the pandemic and prior to Trump was that you could not house minors with adults and thus they were separated. I don’t believe separating those kids was someone’s idea of fun and games.

No, it wasn't fun and games. I imagine a six year old being taken from their parents and not told if and when they will ever see them again would not be much fun. It would be terrifying. But then, that was the point.

Trump separated children from parents. It was deliberate. Not from distant relatives, cousins, great uncles, or strangers. Family separation was instituted because they felt it would be a deterrent. The issue of unaccompanied minors and locating family in the U.S. was a different problem. But not why they instituted family separation. You only have to read the memos: the cruelty was the point.

As far as crime, you are right. It’s not a problem. Ignore it.

I'm not ignoring it. Heck, I've been the victim of it.

I have friends who lost close family members to gun violence. For me, it isn't just an abstract issue.

I'm just asking what DAs have a policy of releasing repeat and habitual offenders, since you say this is such a problem. I DO agree with you a lot of crime is carried out by habitual offenders. DAs know that, too. But I don't know any who have a policy of letting those folks go.

I'm not saying there haven't been cases where I felt they were too lenient in prosecuting and charging. That happens. Also, of course, sometimes they are more harsh than they should be, too.

[JoeMemphis]

No, it wasn't fun and games. I imagine a six year old being taken from their parents and not told if and when they will ever see them again would not be much fun. It would be terrifying. But then, that was the point.

Trump separated children from parents. It was deliberate. Not from distant relatives, cousins, great uncles, or strangers. Family separation was instituted because they felt it would be a deterrent. The issue of unaccompanied minors and locating family in the U.S. was a different problem. But not why they instituted family separation. You only have to read the memos: the cruelty was the point.



I'm not ignoring it. Heck, I've been the victim of it.



I have friends who lost close family members to gun violence. For me, it isn't just an abstract issue.

I'm just asking what DAs have a policy of releasing repeat and habitual offenders, since you say this is such a problem. I DO agree with you a lot of crime is carried out by habitual offenders. DAs know that, too. But I don't know any who have a policy of letting thoe folks go.

Was it the point?? And how would you know? As far as encouraging thousands upon thousands upon thousands to leave their homes and head into this country with no plan on what to do with the or how to assimilate them or how to pay for all this, well we will just have to disagree with whether that’s smart policy and better than what what we had before. I will point out that there are tons of thousands of unaccompanied minor being turned over to adults in this country. Like the other migrants, we have no plan for them, no way to track them or check their welfare. So you don’t know if there were victims of abuse before during or after their trip across the border. Didn’t then and still don’t now. So again, we can disagree or whether that’s smart policy. Seems to me a policy which separates children from their parents and turns them over to adults we know shit about and then losing track of them isn’t anymore humane than Biden’s predecessor. You can pretend it’s better if you choose. Up to you.

As far as crime, we all are victims of it. If not directly but indirectly. When you don’t feel safe walking the neighborhood, you are a victim. When stores close due to shoplifting, you are a victim, when you have to get a clerk to unlock the toothpaste or laundry detergent, you are a victim. When someone with multiple arrest is released back into society due to no cash bail, you are a victim. When what were formerly felonies are now procedures as misdemeanors if prosecuted at all, you and we are all victims. When police departments, law enforcement are demonized as a group, defunded and not supported by the very city and state leaders that manage them, you and we are all victims.

These things are and have been reported repeatedly. All anyone has to do is turn on the TV and look at what is going on in LA, Portland, SF, Chicago, NY, Atlanta and others. You can ignore those things and tell yourself it isn’t happening or isn’t that bad because it fits your ideology. But then you are only fooling yourself. You can ignore the tens of thousands of migrants streaming across the border, many of which are unaccompanied and tell yourself, the border is closed simply because Biden and Mayorkus tell you it’s closed. But again, you are just fooling you. The voter isn’t fooled.

Will all this make a difference next Nov? Who knows. If the current polls hold, we will be running with another set of really shitty choices. If Biden and Trump are the best we can do I guess we deserve what we get.