The issue that will define the 2024 election

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JoeMemphis
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Re: The issue that will define the 2024 election

Post by JoeMemphis »

Number6 wrote: Tue Dec 26, 2023 1:55 pm The problem has a lot to do with climate change and corrupt/oppressive governments the immigrants are coming from. As you said, this is a worldwide problem.


Putting on a show at the border is what the republicans have done for years. When Bush 43 was in office we had this problem and we had it when TFG was in office and neither did anything meaningful to solve the problem. TFG said he'd build a "great wall" and have Mexico pay for it. Only a small portion of the wall was ever built and parts of it are crumbling, falling down, or easily scaled. And Mexico has no paid one penny or peso for the wall. Whenever the republicans want to turn unwanted attention on themselves they start screaming about how the border is unsecured and we are being invaded. :roll:
And then Biden took a problem and purposely turned it into a crisis. So if we are talking about the border and performance regarding that issue, Biden is fucking it up worse than any of his predecessors. He gets a solid F on border security.
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ZoWie
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Re: The issue that will define the 2024 election

Post by ZoWie »

drumpf's wall, like the rest of his "career," is made out of ticky-tacky and in-your-face hype. It never got finished, it's built like a piece of crap, and indeed it is falling down in spots. It never kept anybody out.

And no, Mexico never put in a single peso.

With climate change combining with wars, class struggle, and organized crime, indeed a non-trivial percentage of the world's population is being displaced, and we're not the only country with thousands of them sneaking in by any means necessary. C-SPAN shows a tape of the UK Prime Minister's Questions on C-SPAN every week, and it's amazing how many of them concern The Migrant Plague. It's as much a staple topic over there as is the National Health. And no, they can't keep them out either, even though the country is an island surrounded by a cold and treacherous ocean.

I have always found it quaint that some users here are so convinced that any POTUS can keep them out. I find it downright remarkable that such a perennial issue is apparently the only one getting real traction in this election campaign. Immigrants are the mother of all lost causes. They will come by any means necessary. They must be dealt with at the source, but we have better things to do with our money besides attempting to uplift the rest of the world so that the problem is eliminated where it starts instead of causing all manner of unpleasantness where it finishes.

Proactive solutions are SO out this year.
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gounion
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Re: The issue that will define the 2024 election

Post by gounion »

There really isn’t a border crisis. Like the “debt crisis” every time there’s a Democratic President, it’s just a way for the right to manufacture outrage.

What the right wants is to be able to set up machine guns and the border to shoot everyone that comes across, man, woman or child. They’d get their kicks out of that. The LAST thing they want is for the refugees to be treated like human beings.
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ZoWie
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Re: The issue that will define the 2024 election

Post by ZoWie »

I think the current crisis mentality is about 50% the result of shots on the Nooz of the camera frame full of migrants awaiting their turn at processing, and about 50% partisan hype about a perennial topic that dates to the early 1800s.

Both cameras and political parties distort reality by selecting small parts of a big world and making them look representative of something a lot bigger than they really are.
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Number6
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Re: The issue that will define the 2024 election

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JoeMemphis wrote: Tue Dec 26, 2023 2:08 pm And then Biden took a problem and purposely turned it into a crisis. So if we are talking about the border and performance regarding that issue, Biden is fucking it up worse than any of his predecessors. He gets a solid F on border security.
Please explain how " Biden took a problem and purposely turned it into a crisis" and "Biden is fucking it up worse than any of his predecessors."
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JoeMemphis
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Re: The issue that will define the 2024 election

Post by JoeMemphis »

Number6 wrote: Tue Dec 26, 2023 9:51 pm Please explain how " Biden took a problem and purposely turned it into a crisis" and "Biden is fucking it up worse than any of his predecessors."
We had a border policy that was working. Wasn’t perfect but was working. However because it was a Trump policy and Biden hates all things Trump, they trashed that policy and instead basically put in a policy that opened our borders. All anyone needs to do is to compare the numbers today with the prepandemic numbers. It was a purposeful policy decision. So he took something that was working to a degree and put in a policy that’s a clusterfuck. He should run on this policy decision. He should be held accountable to the voters.
gounion
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Re: The issue that will define the 2024 election

Post by gounion »

JoeMemphis wrote: Tue Dec 26, 2023 10:59 pm We had a border policy that was working. Wasn’t perfect but was working. However because it was a Trump policy and Biden hates all things Trump, they trashed that policy and instead basically put in a policy that opened our borders. All anyone needs to do is to compare the numbers today with the prepandemic numbers. It was a purposeful policy decision. So he took something that was working to a degree and put in a policy that’s a clusterfuck. He should run on this policy decision. He should be held accountable to the voters.
Bullshit. As always, you lionize Trump. First, it was all smoke and mirrors. "Build the wall and Mexico will pay for it". Then he came up with a policy that was just inhumane, to rip children from their parents and send them across the country without records so they can't be reunited with their parents. How much did it cost to take care of those children without parents? Who took care of them?

You didn't give a shit, did you? You wouldn't care if he had sent them to cremation centers, would you?

Let's be realistic - you don't want TRUMP to be accountable.

And you're just buying into the right's made-up numbers. Things aren't worse, but you can dream, can't you?
JoeMemphis
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Re: The issue that will define the 2024 election

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gounion wrote: Wed Dec 27, 2023 7:38 am Bullshit. As always, you lionize Trump. First, it was all smoke and mirrors. "Build the wall and Mexico will pay for it". Then he came up with a policy that was just inhumane, to rip children from their parents and send them across the country without records so they can't be reunited with their parents. How much did it cost to take care of those children without parents? Who took care of them?

You didn't give a shit, did you? You wouldn't care if he had sent them to cremation centers, would you?

Let's be realistic - you don't want TRUMP to be accountable.

And you're just buying into the right's made-up numbers. Things aren't worse, but you can dream, can't you?
Both men should run on their records.

As for made up numbers. Tell that to the Dems who say this is a crisis. Are they buying into made up numbers? The numbers which are in fact produced by government agencies. Those made up numbers? You are ignoring all the evidence including what you can plainly see with your own two eyes and instead are buying into the BS being pumped out of Biden’s equivalent of Baghdad Bob, and the Sec of DHS, and Biden himself.

I’m perfectly happy if someone want to take an objective look at the numbers historically, esp those pre pandemic, and compare them to Biden’s record on the border and explain how we are better off. How 6 to 8 million is better. I think Biden should run on that “success” story and let the voters decide. Personally I think he should retire and let someone else take the job. They cant fuck up the border any worse than team Biden.
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Re: The issue that will define the 2024 election

Post by gounion »

JoeMemphis wrote: Wed Dec 27, 2023 9:54 am Both men should run on their records.

As for made up numbers. Tell that to the Dems who say this is a crisis. Are they buying into made up numbers? The numbers which are in fact produced by government agencies. Those made up numbers? You are ignoring all the evidence including what you can plainly see with your own two eyes and instead are buying into the BS being pumped out of Biden’s equivalent of Baghdad Bob, and the Sec of DHS, and Biden himself.
Just like the debt, it's only a crisis when the GOP is out of power.
I’m perfectly happy if someone want to take an objective look at the numbers historically, esp those pre pandemic, and compare them to Biden’s record on the border and explain how we are better off. How 6 to 8 million is better. I think Biden should run on that “success” story and let the voters decide. Personally I think he should retire and let someone else take the job. They cant fuck up the border any worse than team Biden.
So you'd prefer Trump to Biden on this? Yes or no?
JoeMemphis
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Re: The issue that will define the 2024 election

Post by JoeMemphis »

gounion wrote: Wed Dec 27, 2023 10:10 am Just like the debt, it's only a crisis when the GOP is out of power.

So you'd prefer Trump to Biden on this? Yes or no?
I’d prefer a derivation of the Trump policy versus open borders. Yes. I think most voters prefer that as well based on polling on this specific topic. No question. Biden’s policy is a clusterfuck. Compared to his predecessors, he is in the basement as far as border security.
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Re: The issue that will define the 2024 election

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For 20 months Trump's Mexico border policy was a COVID policy. It was a way to skirt the law and was used to inflict pain and suffering on asylum seekers. What was it called again?
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Re: The issue that will define the 2024 election

Post by ZoWie »

drumpf made the border crisis worse, created essentially micro-Gazas along the border, and then Biden inherited an insoluble mess. The climate is changing, the center can't hold anywhere, everyone's going to war or into organized crime, and you can't fix the situation with glib generalities. It's too bad that the context changed, and the usual suspects made walls and mass roundups look cool again.

I'm sticking to my idea that Biden needs to put on a show at the border. It will waste our money and not stop anybody, but it will remove one hot-button Republican campaign tool. It might even slightly reduce the mess in places like El Paso just enough to get back the political high ground.

The Nooz has elected to make this election another exercise in dueling snake oil shows. I just use the tools they give us.
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gounion
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Re: The issue that will define the 2024 election

Post by gounion »

JoeMemphis wrote: Wed Dec 27, 2023 10:39 am I’d prefer a derivation of the Trump policy versus open borders. Yes. I think most voters prefer that as well based on polling on this specific topic. No question. Biden’s policy is a clusterfuck. Compared to his predecessors, he is in the basement as far as border security.
When you say “open borders” you’re fucking lying. But you don’t care do you?
JoeMemphis
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Re: The issue that will define the 2024 election

Post by JoeMemphis »

gounion wrote: Wed Dec 27, 2023 11:05 am When you say “open borders” you’re fucking lying. But you don’t care do you?
Yeah right. The southern border is closed and secure. :lol: :lol:
We are allowing folks in and releasing them into the country with little more than a hall pass or promise to appear in 4 or 5 years. That’s open borders. Not caring? Biden doesn’t care. Doesn’t give a shit. He won’t do anything about it other than lip service. So yeah. If you like the policy, write him and tell him how proud you are of the job he is doing and advise him to run on his “successful” border security policy. Let the voters decide. I’m good with that.
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Re: The issue that will define the 2024 election

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gounion wrote: Wed Dec 27, 2023 11:05 am When you say “open borders” you’re fucking lying. But you don’t care do you?
Open borders is a common expression about our borders. It has been around for decades and is especially relevant since Joe Biden has taken office.
The only person offended by it is you. Just like you were offended by the phrase the lseeor of two evils.
Because you either can't tell the difference between literally and figuratively. Or you are just pretending to be offended because you think it is an opening to be outraged at Memphis.
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JoeMemphis
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Re: The issue that will define the 2024 election

Post by JoeMemphis »

bradman wrote: Wed Dec 27, 2023 10:48 am For 20 months Trump's Mexico border policy was a COVID policy. It was a way to skirt the law and was used to inflict pain and suffering on asylum seekers. What was it called again?
So let’s send all these migrants to sanctuary cities and states and allow all the folks who support this “policy” to pay for it. How bout that?

Biden’s policy of ignoring his duty to follow immigration laws isn’t working. Not at all. So instead of making things better he made things worse. He should run on that.
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Re: The issue that will define the 2024 election

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JoeMemphis wrote: Wed Dec 27, 2023 11:17 am Yeah right. The southern border is closed and secure. :lol: :lol:
We are allowing folks in and releasing them into the country with little more than a hall pass or promise to appear in 4 or 5 years. That’s open borders. Not caring? Biden doesn’t care. Doesn’t give a shit. He won’t do anything about it other than lip service. So yeah. If you like the policy, write him and tell him how proud you are of the job he is doing and advise him to run on his “successful” border security policy. Let the voters decide. I’m good with that.
It is not open. To say so is a lie.

But the truth won’t do, so you must lie. That says it all. Even the far-right CATO Institute refutes your lie: https://www.cato.org/blog/bidens-border ... en-borders
Practically since his first week in office, President Joe Biden has faced repeated criticisms from Republicans and some Democrats that his border policy amounts to “open borders.” This criticism is not simply inaccurate: it is unhinged from reality in a way that distinguishes itself from normal political hyperbole. Indeed, U.S. immigration policy is effectively closed borders, and Biden’s immigration policies and goals are largely the same as those of President Donald Trump.

Under U.S. immigration law, it is illegal for anyone in the world to travel or immigrate to the United States unless they fall into very narrow exceptions. Like Alcohol Prohibition—which had exemptions for religious, medicinal, or industrial purposes—America’s immigration prohibition’s small exceptions are irrelevant for the vast majority of potential immigrants. Effectively, if they don’t qualify as a select few high skilled workers or family members of U.S. citizens, they can’t come legally.

President Biden has not suddenly ended America’s immigration prohibition and opened up U.S. borders to almost anyone who wants to come (as was largely America’s immigration policy from 1776 to 1924). Instead, he has far more vigorously enforced immigration prohibition than the law requires, narrowing the few exceptions to the universal ban on legal immigration.

But nothing will stop you from lying, will it?
gounion
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Re: The issue that will define the 2024 election

Post by gounion »

Glennfs wrote: Wed Dec 27, 2023 11:20 am Open borders is a common expression about our borders. It has been around for decades and is especially relevant since Joe Biden has taken office.
The only person offended by it is you. Just like you were offended by the phrase the lseeor of two evils.
Because you either can't tell the difference between literally and figuratively. Or you are just pretending to be offended because you think it is an opening to be outraged at Memphis.
Yes, it’s a common lie from the right. Very true.
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Re: The issue that will define the 2024 election

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> as was largely America’s immigration policy from 1776 to 1924

Except for the Chinese Exclusion Act of 1882, as signed by President Arthur to keep the Yellow Peril out. And a few other such political stunts.
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Re: The issue that will define the 2024 election

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JoeMemphis wrote: Wed Dec 27, 2023 11:22 am So let’s send all these migrants to sanctuary cities and states and allow all the folks who support this “policy” to pay for it. How bout that?

Biden’s policy of ignoring his duty to follow immigration laws isn’t working. Not at all. So instead of making things better he made things worse. He should run on that.
[bold] Keep in mind Biden also used title 42 for as long as he could. Once the Federal Courts ruled against it Biden let it sunset. Like it or not, he was following the law.

Which makes me wonder. What immigration laws aren't being followed?
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Number6
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Re: The issue that will define the 2024 election

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JoeMemphis wrote: Tue Dec 26, 2023 10:59 pm We had a border policy that was working. Wasn’t perfect but was working. However because it was a Trump policy and Biden hates all things Trump, they trashed that policy and instead basically put in a policy that opened our borders. All anyone needs to do is to compare the numbers today with the prepandemic numbers. It was a purposeful policy decision. So he took something that was working to a degree and put in a policy that’s a clusterfuck. He should run on this policy decision. He should be held accountable to the voters.
Under U.S. law, any person who presents themselves for entry into the U.S. may apply for asylum. Once they apply for asylum, a date, time, and place for an interview will be made for the applicant to provide evidence of why they are claiming asylum.

IMO, those coming for other than political, religious, or other forms of persecution will be denied asylum and be order to be returned to their own or another country.

As for TFG's border policy, it was based more on inflicting harm on people than enforcing the law.
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gounion
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Re: The issue that will define the 2024 election

Post by gounion »

The CATO article goes into detail about what Biden IS doing - but Joe and Glenn will NEVER read the article, because they don’t want to know the truth, they want to keep lying because of their ideology and hatred.
JoeMemphis
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Re: The issue that will define the 2024 election

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gounion wrote: Wed Dec 27, 2023 11:23 am It is not open. To say so is a lie.

But the truth won’t do, so you must lie. That says it all. Even the far-right CATO Institute refutes your lie: https://www.cato.org/blog/bidens-border ... en-borders




But nothing will stop you from lying, will it?
Well whether or not it’s open is subject to interpretation. When you allow 6 to 8 million people to cross the border without documents and then release the into the country and allow them to stay for a number of years, the border is open. Now you may call that “closed”. You may call that “secure”. You may call that “under control”. You can call it a “flying pig”. But that won’t get it off the ground.

The border isn’t closed. At least to illegal migrants. The folks who have followed our immigration laws and waited patiently. For them the border is closed. What a fucking system?
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Re: The issue that will define the 2024 election

Post by gounion »

JoeMemphis wrote: Wed Dec 27, 2023 11:58 am Well whether or not it’s open is subject to interpretation. When you allow 6 to 8 million people to cross the border without documents and then release the into the country and allow them to stay for a number of years, the border is open. Now you may call that “closed”. You may call that “secure”. You may call that “under control”. You can call it a “flying pig”. But that won’t get it off the ground.

The border isn’t closed. At least to illegal migrants. The folks who have followed our immigration laws and waited patiently. For them the border is closed. What a fucking system?
Yeah, I knew you wouldn’t read the right-wing article for the truth, and I knew you’d continue to lie.

You can’t deal in the truth on the issue, and this is all to deflect from the issue of the thread, which is your side’s death panels for pregnant women.
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Re: The issue that will define the 2024 election

Post by Glennfs »

gounion wrote: Wed Dec 27, 2023 12:00 pm Yeah, I knew you wouldn’t read the right-wing article for the truth, and I knew you’d continue to lie.

You can’t deal in the truth on the issue, and this is all to deflect from the issue of the thread, which is your side’s death panels for pregnant women.
2.5 million illegal aliens entered our country last year. .
So exactly what is the number of illegal aliens need to enter before you would figuratively say we have open borders.
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