The issue that will define the 2024 election
Re: The issue that will define the 2024 election
When you have a few million people who have been displaced by climate, or organized crime brought on by bad government, and there's no place to put them, you have a problem.
The border is a symptom.
The idea of open borders is ludicrous. Every border is essentially open to anyone who tries hard enough. Israel didn't keep a terrorist army out, and they have every advanced tool in the arsenal on a border with Gaza that is shorter than most state lines here.
The experience of other countries shows that desperate people will get in, one way or another. If tight little islands like England can't keep them out, a large country with thousands of miles of border including two oceans, a bunch of great lakes, and a large gulf doesn't stand a chance.
Best to treat the disease.
The border is a symptom.
The idea of open borders is ludicrous. Every border is essentially open to anyone who tries hard enough. Israel didn't keep a terrorist army out, and they have every advanced tool in the arsenal on a border with Gaza that is shorter than most state lines here.
The experience of other countries shows that desperate people will get in, one way or another. If tight little islands like England can't keep them out, a large country with thousands of miles of border including two oceans, a bunch of great lakes, and a large gulf doesn't stand a chance.
Best to treat the disease.
"We must remember that we cannot abandon the truth and remain a free nation." --Liz Cheney, Republican, 7/21/22
Re: The issue that will define the 2024 election
You would tell the truth, not lie and say we had open borders. I see you refused to read the CATO article too - you don’t want facts clouding your talking points, do you?
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Re: The issue that will define the 2024 election
Our border is a symptom of bad leadership and shitty border policy. I have no doubt the countries of origin have all sorts of problems. I don’t see that as an excuse for our own shitty border policy and the lack luster attitude towards enforcing our border and immigration laws. And that’s what we are hearing. Excuses. Not accountability. Just excuses.ZoWie wrote: ↑Wed Dec 27, 2023 12:06 pm When you have a few million people who have been displaced by climate, or organized crime brought on by bad government, and there's no place to put them, you have a problem.
The border is a symptom.
The idea of open borders is ludicrous. Every border is essentially open to anyone who tries hard enough. Israel didn't keep a terrorist army out, and they have every advanced tool in the arsenal on a border with Gaza that is shorter than most state lines here.
The experience of other countries shows that desperate people will get in, one way or another. If tight little islands like England can't keep them out, a large country with thousands of miles of border including two oceans, a bunch of great lakes, and a large gulf doesn't stand a chance.
Best to treat the disease.
Re: The issue that will define the 2024 election
In your case, just lies.JoeMemphis wrote: ↑Wed Dec 27, 2023 1:03 pm Our border is a symptom of bad leadership and shitty border policy. I have no doubt the countries of origin have all sorts of problems. I don’t see that as an excuse for our own shitty border policy and the lack luster attitude towards enforcing our border and immigration laws. And that’s what we are hearing. Excuses. Not accountability. Just excuses.
Re: The issue that will define the 2024 election
Best to treat the disease. Best idea yet, and yet, the conversation is ignored.
Band aids don't work. Neither do walls. Both are temporary fixes.
There's a rumor out there. Someone correct me if i'm wrong. There's a growing amount of people seeking refuge from other countries that are now joining the regular flow of South Americans.
Band aids don't work. Neither do walls. Both are temporary fixes.
There's a rumor out there. Someone correct me if i'm wrong. There's a growing amount of people seeking refuge from other countries that are now joining the regular flow of South Americans.
I am not a member of any organized political party. I am a Democrat. [Will Rogers]
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Re: The issue that will define the 2024 election
What disease? Bad leadership disease? Bad border policy disease? Ignoring the law disease? Fixing things in other countries around the world disease? Which disease? What’s the prescription? How about we just stop the flow?? Or do you think we are incapable of controlling our own borders?bradman wrote: ↑Wed Dec 27, 2023 3:40 pm Best to treat the disease. Best idea yet, and yet, the conversation is ignored.
Band aids don't work. Neither do walls. Both are temporary fixes.
There's a rumor out there. Someone correct me if i'm wrong. There's a growing amount of people seeking refuge from other countries that are now joining the regular flow of South Americans.
Re: The issue that will define the 2024 election
Proof it’s not just me. You won’t read and comprehend Zowie’s posts, and you won’t read the CATO Institute link I posted.JoeMemphis wrote: ↑Wed Dec 27, 2023 4:15 pm What disease? Bad leadership disease? Bad border policy disease? Ignoring the law disease? Fixing things in other countries around the world disease? Which disease? What’s the prescription? How about we just stop the flow?? Or do you think we are incapable of controlling our own borders?
Because you don’t want to let facts and logic interfere in your Trump-addled mind.
Re: The issue that will define the 2024 election
Why are they coming?JoeMemphis wrote: ↑Wed Dec 27, 2023 4:15 pm What disease? Bad leadership disease? Bad border policy disease? Ignoring the law disease? Fixing things in other countries around the world disease? Which disease? What’s the prescription? How about we just stop the flow?? Or do you think we are incapable of controlling our own borders?
Until that's better understood, and addressed, there will be no cure. They will keep coming. No walls will stop it.
I am not a member of any organized political party. I am a Democrat. [Will Rogers]
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Re: The issue that will define the 2024 election
They are coming here because they want to work. I have no doubt they are fleeing some shitty economic conditions in their home countries and they think or believe their lives will be better here. So how do you cure that? Gonna cost a whole hellava lot of money to solve all the worlds problems.
So are you telling me that unless we go on a nation building campaign all over the world that we won’t be able to control our own border? That it’s impossible for us to secure our own borders? I don’t believe that. Not for a minute. Are you telling me that remain in Mexico wasn’t working. That it wasn’t a deterrent? Are you telling me that shit canning that program just because the current POTUS hates the prior POTUS was a good policy decision? Are you saying that doubling and tripling the number of illegal migrants since Biden took office had nothing at all to do with his leadership and his border policy?
The problem got a whole hellava lot worse when we told folks that if they came into this country and claimed asylum that they wouldn’t be deported and we allowed them to stay for years until their asylum claims were heard. Even then the chances they would be deported was slim to none. Thats the disease. Thats the problem. POTUS all but invited them. It’s a back door asylum. Back door amnesty. It’s in your face ignoring the law and his duty to the Constitution. So maybe we need to cure the corrupting disregard for our own laws. Maybe we should start with that disease?
We don’t have the means to solve all the world’s problems. Never have. Never will. We do have a duty to abide by the laws we have passed. It’s shitty that one or two people believe they can ignore their duty and oath to faithfully uphold those laws. Thats a disease we should be about treating as well.
Re: The issue that will define the 2024 election
I knew you wouldn’t answer
" I am a socialist " Bernie Sanders
Re: The issue that will define the 2024 election
[bold] kinda ironic considering our past national building campaigns are the reason some of them are fleeing to better ground in the first place, eh?...JoeMemphis wrote: ↑Wed Dec 27, 2023 6:15 pm They are coming here because they want to work. I have no doubt they are fleeing some shitty economic conditions in their home countries and they think or believe their lives will be better here. So how do you cure that? Gonna cost a whole hellava lot of money to solve all the worlds problems.
So are you telling me that unless we go on a nation building campaign all over the world that we won’t be able to control our own border? That it’s impossible for us to secure our own borders? I don’t believe that. Not for a minute. Are you telling me that remain in Mexico wasn’t working. That it wasn’t a deterrent? Are you telling me that shit canning that program just because the current POTUS hates the prior POTUS was a good policy decision? Are you saying that doubling and tripling the number of illegal migrants since Biden took office had nothing at all to do with his leadership and his border policy?
The problem got a whole hellava lot worse when we told folks that if they came into this country and claimed asylum that they wouldn’t be deported and we allowed them to stay for years until their asylum claims were heard. Even then the chances they would be deported was slim to none. Thats the disease. Thats the problem. POTUS all but invited them. It’s a back door asylum. Back door amnesty. It’s in your face ignoring the law and his duty to the Constitution. So maybe we need to cure the corrupting disregard for our own laws. Maybe we should start with that disease?
We don’t have the means to solve all the world’s problems. Never have. Never will. We do have a duty to abide by the laws we have passed. It’s shitty that one or two people believe they can ignore their duty and oath to faithfully uphold those laws. Thats a disease we should be about treating as well.
Another thing ya got me wondering about..
i wonder what would happen if we did so?How about we just stop the flow??
I am not a member of any organized political party. I am a Democrat. [Will Rogers]
Re: The issue that will define the 2024 election
I read the article now here is an article that proves the other article is wrong.
Depending on which one you choose to believe.
https://www.heritage.org/immigration/co ... -guatemala
See how that works just because you stumbled upon an opinion piece you agreed with doesn't make it true.
" I am a socialist " Bernie Sanders
Re: The issue that will define the 2024 election
The Heritage Foundation vs CATO..........Glennfs wrote: ↑Wed Dec 27, 2023 6:26 pm I read the article now here is an article that proves the other article is wrong.
Depending on which one you choose to believe.
https://www.heritage.org/immigration/co ... -guatemala
See how that works just because you stumbled upon an opinion piece you agreed with doesn't make it true.
I am not a member of any organized political party. I am a Democrat. [Will Rogers]
Re: The issue that will define the 2024 election
Hmm..i suppose. Koch has thrown their support in another direction this time round.
Does that mean all is forgiven?
CATO has always leaned a bit to far right for my taste.
Does that mean all is forgiven?
CATO has always leaned a bit to far right for my taste.
I am not a member of any organized political party. I am a Democrat. [Will Rogers]
Re: The issue that will define the 2024 election
⁸
No I was pointing out the ignorance of your proof that our incompetent president's policies hasn't lead to open borders and 2.5 million criminals entering our country last year.
" I am a socialist " Bernie Sanders
Re: The issue that will define the 2024 election
For the sake of a conversation........
[bold] i'd find it hard to believe that any administration would cut loose 2.5 million "criminals" to roam the U.S..
I am not a member of any organized political party. I am a Democrat. [Will Rogers]
Re: The issue that will define the 2024 election
As soon as they illegally enter the United States they were guilty of committing a federal crime. Making them all criminals by definition.
" I am a socialist " Bernie Sanders
Re: The issue that will define the 2024 election
I should have used the word insignificance instead of ignorance
" I am a socialist " Bernie Sanders
Re: The issue that will define the 2024 election
So the 2.5 million "criminals" you're talking about didn't go through the system?
And, are we talking MS13 kind of criminals?
I am not a member of any organized political party. I am a Democrat. [Will Rogers]
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Re: The issue that will define the 2024 election
I dunno. But I do know that POTUS granting 6 million plus people amnesty by fiat isn’t a good plan. It’s not a solution. The way that is supposed to work is that the legislature passes laws. That’s how the people get a say in things. Two thirds don’t approve of this strategy. And yet this POTUS won’t do shit. That’s the government we have. He has put his will over and above everyone else. The law and the Constitution be damned. So yeah. I hope he runs on his record. He should. This clusterfuck is his. He needs to own it.
Re: The issue that will define the 2024 election
Reagan provided amnesty as President.JoeMemphis wrote: ↑Wed Dec 27, 2023 9:27 pm I dunno. But I do know that POTUS granting 6 million plus people amnesty by fiat isn’t a good plan. It’s not a solution. The way that is supposed to work is that the legislature passes laws. That’s how the people get a say in things. Two thirds don’t approve of this strategy. And yet this POTUS won’t do shit. That’s the government we have. He has put his will over and above everyone else. The law and the Constitution be damned. So yeah. I hope he runs on his record. He should. This clusterfuck is his. He needs to own it.
But the legislature hasn't passed any laws. The GOP controls congress. Where's the bill?
Re: The issue that will define the 2024 election
This argument falls apart because most people have done something illegal in their lives. As we know, for example, weed wasn't legal anywhere in the US until maybe 8-10 years ago.
Sneaking into a country without permission is a lot more serious than getting caught with a joint in your crotch, but you get the idea.
The idea that they come for work is valid, but given that Biden is actually not throwing open the border and letting in all comers, it's a dangerous journey. Boats sink, trucks burn, and of course hanging onto the landing gear of a jetliner is a bit of a breathing issue. Most people would not uproot and go halfway around the world trusting crooks and gangsters to get them there unless the alternative was starvation or violent death for them or their children.
I can't change the fact that Americans get a distorted view of world affairs, since most countries are similarly guilty of that. I can note that believing the Republican line on immigration right now is a sucker game, not unlike confusing Hamas with liberation or BiBi with good leadership.
Sneaking into a country without permission is a lot more serious than getting caught with a joint in your crotch, but you get the idea.
The idea that they come for work is valid, but given that Biden is actually not throwing open the border and letting in all comers, it's a dangerous journey. Boats sink, trucks burn, and of course hanging onto the landing gear of a jetliner is a bit of a breathing issue. Most people would not uproot and go halfway around the world trusting crooks and gangsters to get them there unless the alternative was starvation or violent death for them or their children.
I can't change the fact that Americans get a distorted view of world affairs, since most countries are similarly guilty of that. I can note that believing the Republican line on immigration right now is a sucker game, not unlike confusing Hamas with liberation or BiBi with good leadership.
"We must remember that we cannot abandon the truth and remain a free nation." --Liz Cheney, Republican, 7/21/22
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Re: The issue that will define the 2024 election
Really? I can’t change the fact that Americans get a distorted view? Really? All you or anyone needs to do is look at the numbers pre Biden and post Biden. Just look at the numbers.ZoWie wrote: ↑Thu Dec 28, 2023 11:39 am This argument falls apart because most people have done something illegal in their lives. As we know, for example, weed wasn't legal anywhere in the US until maybe 8-10 years ago.
Sneaking into a country without permission is a lot more serious than getting caught with a joint in your crotch, but you get the idea.
The idea that they come for work is valid, but given that Biden is actually not throwing open the border and letting in all comers, it's a dangerous journey. Boats sink, trucks burn, and of course hanging onto the landing gear of a jetliner is a bit of a breathing issue. Most people would not uproot and go halfway around the world trusting crooks and gangsters to get them there unless the alternative was starvation or violent death for them or their children.
I can't change the fact that Americans get a distorted view of world affairs, since most countries are similarly guilty of that. I can note that believing the Republican line on immigration right now is a sucker game, not unlike confusing Hamas with liberation or BiBi with good leadership.
You have mayors in BLUE cities calling this a crisis. You have Obama’s Sec of Homeland Security calling it a crisis. Do they have a distorted view? We have allowed more people into this country than we had as soldiers in Europe at the end of WW2. What’s a “realistic” view? When does it stop being no big deal in your view?
If a President presented legislation to the Congress to allow 6 to 8 million people to stream across our borders, allow them to stay 4 to 5 years, provide benefits and social services knowing full well that they will not deported at the end of 5 years, all on the taxpayer’s dime, How much support do you think there would be in the Congress for that idea? I can tell you it would be dead on arrival. And yet that’s exactly what this POTUS has done via executive order. He is intentionally ignoring or refusing to enforce existing law.
So tell me what is distorted here Zowie. What did I miss?
Re: The issue that will define the 2024 election
The problem has not increased in size since drumpf's brief unhappy reign. It has only increased in mass hysteria as carefully cultivated by the Republican Party because now it and its bought off Nooz talking heads have someone else to blame.
As long as putting your kids and/or yourself into the hands of human traffickers is preferable to staying home and being killed by gangs or starved by climate change, crop failures, and corrupt economics, people will continue to consider putting escaping to the developed world (not just the US, Europe has similar issues) an alternative to staying put and getting snuffed for sure. Life and death. So far I have seen nothing in this election campaign from either party which addresses the problem at its roots.
As long as putting your kids and/or yourself into the hands of human traffickers is preferable to staying home and being killed by gangs or starved by climate change, crop failures, and corrupt economics, people will continue to consider putting escaping to the developed world (not just the US, Europe has similar issues) an alternative to staying put and getting snuffed for sure. Life and death. So far I have seen nothing in this election campaign from either party which addresses the problem at its roots.
Last edited by ZoWie on Thu Dec 28, 2023 12:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"We must remember that we cannot abandon the truth and remain a free nation." --Liz Cheney, Republican, 7/21/22