The issue that will define the 2024 election

News and events of the day
Post Reply
User avatar
ZoWie
Posts: 5108
Joined: Sun Oct 24, 2021 4:39 pm
Location: The blue parts of the map

Re: The issue that will define the 2024 election

Post by ZoWie »

When you have a few million people who have been displaced by climate, or organized crime brought on by bad government, and there's no place to put them, you have a problem.

The border is a symptom.

The idea of open borders is ludicrous. Every border is essentially open to anyone who tries hard enough. Israel didn't keep a terrorist army out, and they have every advanced tool in the arsenal on a border with Gaza that is shorter than most state lines here.

The experience of other countries shows that desperate people will get in, one way or another. If tight little islands like England can't keep them out, a large country with thousands of miles of border including two oceans, a bunch of great lakes, and a large gulf doesn't stand a chance.

Best to treat the disease.
"We must remember that we cannot abandon the truth and remain a free nation." --Liz Cheney, Republican, 7/21/22
gounion
Posts: 17250
Joined: Sun Oct 24, 2021 4:59 pm

Re: The issue that will define the 2024 election

Post by gounion »

Glennfs wrote: Wed Dec 27, 2023 12:03 pm 2.5 million illegal aliens entered our country last year. .
So exactly what is the number of illegal aliens need to enter before you would figuratively say we have open borders.
You would tell the truth, not lie and say we had open borders. I see you refused to read the CATO article too - you don’t want facts clouding your talking points, do you?
JoeMemphis
Posts: 1496
Joined: Mon Oct 16, 2023 5:39 pm

Re: The issue that will define the 2024 election

Post by JoeMemphis »

ZoWie wrote: Wed Dec 27, 2023 12:06 pm When you have a few million people who have been displaced by climate, or organized crime brought on by bad government, and there's no place to put them, you have a problem.

The border is a symptom.

The idea of open borders is ludicrous. Every border is essentially open to anyone who tries hard enough. Israel didn't keep a terrorist army out, and they have every advanced tool in the arsenal on a border with Gaza that is shorter than most state lines here.

The experience of other countries shows that desperate people will get in, one way or another. If tight little islands like England can't keep them out, a large country with thousands of miles of border including two oceans, a bunch of great lakes, and a large gulf doesn't stand a chance.

Best to treat the disease.
Our border is a symptom of bad leadership and shitty border policy. I have no doubt the countries of origin have all sorts of problems. I don’t see that as an excuse for our own shitty border policy and the lack luster attitude towards enforcing our border and immigration laws. And that’s what we are hearing. Excuses. Not accountability. Just excuses.
gounion
Posts: 17250
Joined: Sun Oct 24, 2021 4:59 pm

Re: The issue that will define the 2024 election

Post by gounion »

JoeMemphis wrote: Wed Dec 27, 2023 1:03 pm Our border is a symptom of bad leadership and shitty border policy. I have no doubt the countries of origin have all sorts of problems. I don’t see that as an excuse for our own shitty border policy and the lack luster attitude towards enforcing our border and immigration laws. And that’s what we are hearing. Excuses. Not accountability. Just excuses.
In your case, just lies.
bradman
Posts: 2543
Joined: Mon Oct 25, 2021 10:03 am
Location: Home of the DFL

Re: The issue that will define the 2024 election

Post by bradman »

Best to treat the disease. Best idea yet, and yet, the conversation is ignored.

Band aids don't work. Neither do walls. Both are temporary fixes.

There's a rumor out there. Someone correct me if i'm wrong. There's a growing amount of people seeking refuge from other countries that are now joining the regular flow of South Americans.
I am not a member of any organized political party. I am a Democrat. [Will Rogers]
JoeMemphis
Posts: 1496
Joined: Mon Oct 16, 2023 5:39 pm

Re: The issue that will define the 2024 election

Post by JoeMemphis »

bradman wrote: Wed Dec 27, 2023 3:40 pm Best to treat the disease. Best idea yet, and yet, the conversation is ignored.

Band aids don't work. Neither do walls. Both are temporary fixes.

There's a rumor out there. Someone correct me if i'm wrong. There's a growing amount of people seeking refuge from other countries that are now joining the regular flow of South Americans.
What disease? Bad leadership disease? Bad border policy disease? Ignoring the law disease? Fixing things in other countries around the world disease? Which disease? What’s the prescription? How about we just stop the flow?? Or do you think we are incapable of controlling our own borders?
gounion
Posts: 17250
Joined: Sun Oct 24, 2021 4:59 pm

Re: The issue that will define the 2024 election

Post by gounion »

JoeMemphis wrote: Wed Dec 27, 2023 4:15 pm What disease? Bad leadership disease? Bad border policy disease? Ignoring the law disease? Fixing things in other countries around the world disease? Which disease? What’s the prescription? How about we just stop the flow?? Or do you think we are incapable of controlling our own borders?
Proof it’s not just me. You won’t read and comprehend Zowie’s posts, and you won’t read the CATO Institute link I posted.

Because you don’t want to let facts and logic interfere in your Trump-addled mind.
bradman
Posts: 2543
Joined: Mon Oct 25, 2021 10:03 am
Location: Home of the DFL

Re: The issue that will define the 2024 election

Post by bradman »

JoeMemphis wrote: Wed Dec 27, 2023 4:15 pm What disease? Bad leadership disease? Bad border policy disease? Ignoring the law disease? Fixing things in other countries around the world disease? Which disease? What’s the prescription? How about we just stop the flow?? Or do you think we are incapable of controlling our own borders?
Why are they coming?

Until that's better understood, and addressed, there will be no cure. They will keep coming. No walls will stop it.
I am not a member of any organized political party. I am a Democrat. [Will Rogers]
JoeMemphis
Posts: 1496
Joined: Mon Oct 16, 2023 5:39 pm

Re: The issue that will define the 2024 election

Post by JoeMemphis »

bradman wrote: Wed Dec 27, 2023 5:13 pm Why are they coming?

Until that's better understood, and addressed, there will be no cure. They will keep coming. No walls will stop it.
They are coming here because they want to work. I have no doubt they are fleeing some shitty economic conditions in their home countries and they think or believe their lives will be better here. So how do you cure that? Gonna cost a whole hellava lot of money to solve all the worlds problems.

So are you telling me that unless we go on a nation building campaign all over the world that we won’t be able to control our own border? That it’s impossible for us to secure our own borders? I don’t believe that. Not for a minute. Are you telling me that remain in Mexico wasn’t working. That it wasn’t a deterrent? Are you telling me that shit canning that program just because the current POTUS hates the prior POTUS was a good policy decision? Are you saying that doubling and tripling the number of illegal migrants since Biden took office had nothing at all to do with his leadership and his border policy?

The problem got a whole hellava lot worse when we told folks that if they came into this country and claimed asylum that they wouldn’t be deported and we allowed them to stay for years until their asylum claims were heard. Even then the chances they would be deported was slim to none. Thats the disease. Thats the problem. POTUS all but invited them. It’s a back door asylum. Back door amnesty. It’s in your face ignoring the law and his duty to the Constitution. So maybe we need to cure the corrupting disregard for our own laws. Maybe we should start with that disease?

We don’t have the means to solve all the world’s problems. Never have. Never will. We do have a duty to abide by the laws we have passed. It’s shitty that one or two people believe they can ignore their duty and oath to faithfully uphold those laws. Thats a disease we should be about treating as well.
Glennfs
Posts: 10306
Joined: Sun Oct 24, 2021 12:54 pm

Re: The issue that will define the 2024 election

Post by Glennfs »

gounion wrote: Wed Dec 27, 2023 12:14 pm You would tell the truth, not lie and say we had open borders. I see you refused to read the CATO article too - you don’t want facts clouding your talking points, do you?
I knew you wouldn’t answer
" I am a socialist " Bernie Sanders
bradman
Posts: 2543
Joined: Mon Oct 25, 2021 10:03 am
Location: Home of the DFL

Re: The issue that will define the 2024 election

Post by bradman »

JoeMemphis wrote: Wed Dec 27, 2023 6:15 pm They are coming here because they want to work. I have no doubt they are fleeing some shitty economic conditions in their home countries and they think or believe their lives will be better here. So how do you cure that? Gonna cost a whole hellava lot of money to solve all the worlds problems.

So are you telling me that unless we go on a nation building campaign all over the world that we won’t be able to control our own border? That it’s impossible for us to secure our own borders? I don’t believe that. Not for a minute. Are you telling me that remain in Mexico wasn’t working. That it wasn’t a deterrent? Are you telling me that shit canning that program just because the current POTUS hates the prior POTUS was a good policy decision? Are you saying that doubling and tripling the number of illegal migrants since Biden took office had nothing at all to do with his leadership and his border policy?

The problem got a whole hellava lot worse when we told folks that if they came into this country and claimed asylum that they wouldn’t be deported and we allowed them to stay for years until their asylum claims were heard. Even then the chances they would be deported was slim to none. Thats the disease. Thats the problem. POTUS all but invited them. It’s a back door asylum. Back door amnesty. It’s in your face ignoring the law and his duty to the Constitution. So maybe we need to cure the corrupting disregard for our own laws. Maybe we should start with that disease?

We don’t have the means to solve all the world’s problems. Never have. Never will. We do have a duty to abide by the laws we have passed. It’s shitty that one or two people believe they can ignore their duty and oath to faithfully uphold those laws. Thats a disease we should be about treating as well.
[bold] kinda ironic considering our past national building campaigns are the reason some of them are fleeing to better ground in the first place, eh?...

Another thing ya got me wondering about..
How about we just stop the flow??
i wonder what would happen if we did so?
I am not a member of any organized political party. I am a Democrat. [Will Rogers]
Glennfs
Posts: 10306
Joined: Sun Oct 24, 2021 12:54 pm

Re: The issue that will define the 2024 election

Post by Glennfs »

gounion wrote: Wed Dec 27, 2023 12:14 pm You would tell the truth, not lie and say we had open borders. I see you refused to read the CATO article too - you don’t want facts clouding your talking points, do you?
I read the article now here is an article that proves the other article is wrong.

Depending on which one you choose to believe.

https://www.heritage.org/immigration/co ... -guatemala

See how that works just because you stumbled upon an opinion piece you agreed with doesn't make it true.
" I am a socialist " Bernie Sanders
bradman
Posts: 2543
Joined: Mon Oct 25, 2021 10:03 am
Location: Home of the DFL

Re: The issue that will define the 2024 election

Post by bradman »

Glennfs wrote: Wed Dec 27, 2023 6:26 pm I read the article now here is an article that proves the other article is wrong.

Depending on which one you choose to believe.

https://www.heritage.org/immigration/co ... -guatemala

See how that works just because you stumbled upon an opinion piece you agreed with doesn't make it true.
The Heritage Foundation vs CATO.......... :lol:
I am not a member of any organized political party. I am a Democrat. [Will Rogers]
gounion
Posts: 17250
Joined: Sun Oct 24, 2021 4:59 pm

Re: The issue that will define the 2024 election

Post by gounion »

bradman wrote: Wed Dec 27, 2023 6:29 pm The Heritage Foundation vs CATO.......... :lol:
CATO is libertarian, and isn’t owned by Trump - The Heritage Foundation is.

just shows that Glenn searches for whatever upholds his lies.

And the Heritage Foundation ALWAYS lies.
bradman
Posts: 2543
Joined: Mon Oct 25, 2021 10:03 am
Location: Home of the DFL

Re: The issue that will define the 2024 election

Post by bradman »

Hmm..i suppose. Koch has thrown their support in another direction this time round.

Does that mean all is forgiven? :mrgreen:

CATO has always leaned a bit to far right for my taste.
I am not a member of any organized political party. I am a Democrat. [Will Rogers]
Glennfs
Posts: 10306
Joined: Sun Oct 24, 2021 12:54 pm

Re: The issue that will define the 2024 election

Post by Glennfs »

gounion wrote: Wed Dec 27, 2023 6:58 pm CATO is libertarian, and isn’t owned by Trump - The Heritage Foundation is.

just shows that Glenn searches for whatever upholds his lies.

And the Heritage Foundation ALWAYS lies.
No I was pointing out the ignorance of your proof that our incompetent president's policies hasn't lead to open borders and 2.5 million criminals entering our country last year.
" I am a socialist " Bernie Sanders
bradman
Posts: 2543
Joined: Mon Oct 25, 2021 10:03 am
Location: Home of the DFL

Re: The issue that will define the 2024 election

Post by bradman »

Glennfs wrote: Wed Dec 27, 2023 7:32 pm

No I was pointing out the ignorance of your proof that our incompetent president's policies hasn't lead to open borders and 2.5 million criminals entering our country last year.
For the sake of a conversation........

[bold] i'd find it hard to believe that any administration would cut loose 2.5 million "criminals" to roam the U.S..
I am not a member of any organized political party. I am a Democrat. [Will Rogers]
Glennfs
Posts: 10306
Joined: Sun Oct 24, 2021 12:54 pm

Re: The issue that will define the 2024 election

Post by Glennfs »

bradman wrote: Wed Dec 27, 2023 8:07 pm For the sake of a conversation........

[bold] i'd find it hard to believe that any administration would cut loose 2.5 million "criminals" to roam the U.S..
As soon as they illegally enter the United States they were guilty of committing a federal crime. Making them all criminals by definition.
" I am a socialist " Bernie Sanders
Glennfs
Posts: 10306
Joined: Sun Oct 24, 2021 12:54 pm

Re: The issue that will define the 2024 election

Post by Glennfs »

Glennfs wrote: Wed Dec 27, 2023 7:32 pm

No I was pointing out the ignorance of your proof that our incompetent president's policies hasn't lead to open borders and 2.5 million criminals entering our country last year.
I should have used the word insignificance instead of ignorance
" I am a socialist " Bernie Sanders
bradman
Posts: 2543
Joined: Mon Oct 25, 2021 10:03 am
Location: Home of the DFL

Re: The issue that will define the 2024 election

Post by bradman »

Glennfs wrote: Wed Dec 27, 2023 8:28 pm As soon as they illegally enter the United States they were guilty of committing a federal crime. Making them all criminals by definition.
So the 2.5 million "criminals" you're talking about didn't go through the system?

And, are we talking MS13 kind of criminals?
I am not a member of any organized political party. I am a Democrat. [Will Rogers]
JoeMemphis
Posts: 1496
Joined: Mon Oct 16, 2023 5:39 pm

Re: The issue that will define the 2024 election

Post by JoeMemphis »

bradman wrote: Wed Dec 27, 2023 6:26 pm [bold] kinda ironic considering our past national building campaigns are the reason some of them are fleeing to better ground in the first place, eh?...

Another thing ya got me wondering about..

i wonder what would happen if we did so?
I dunno. But I do know that POTUS granting 6 million plus people amnesty by fiat isn’t a good plan. It’s not a solution. The way that is supposed to work is that the legislature passes laws. That’s how the people get a say in things. Two thirds don’t approve of this strategy. And yet this POTUS won’t do shit. That’s the government we have. He has put his will over and above everyone else. The law and the Constitution be damned. So yeah. I hope he runs on his record. He should. This clusterfuck is his. He needs to own it.
gounion
Posts: 17250
Joined: Sun Oct 24, 2021 4:59 pm

Re: The issue that will define the 2024 election

Post by gounion »

JoeMemphis wrote: Wed Dec 27, 2023 9:27 pm I dunno. But I do know that POTUS granting 6 million plus people amnesty by fiat isn’t a good plan. It’s not a solution. The way that is supposed to work is that the legislature passes laws. That’s how the people get a say in things. Two thirds don’t approve of this strategy. And yet this POTUS won’t do shit. That’s the government we have. He has put his will over and above everyone else. The law and the Constitution be damned. So yeah. I hope he runs on his record. He should. This clusterfuck is his. He needs to own it.
Reagan provided amnesty as President.

But the legislature hasn't passed any laws. The GOP controls congress. Where's the bill?
User avatar
ZoWie
Posts: 5108
Joined: Sun Oct 24, 2021 4:39 pm
Location: The blue parts of the map

Re: The issue that will define the 2024 election

Post by ZoWie »

This argument falls apart because most people have done something illegal in their lives. As we know, for example, weed wasn't legal anywhere in the US until maybe 8-10 years ago.

Sneaking into a country without permission is a lot more serious than getting caught with a joint in your crotch, but you get the idea.

The idea that they come for work is valid, but given that Biden is actually not throwing open the border and letting in all comers, it's a dangerous journey. Boats sink, trucks burn, and of course hanging onto the landing gear of a jetliner is a bit of a breathing issue. Most people would not uproot and go halfway around the world trusting crooks and gangsters to get them there unless the alternative was starvation or violent death for them or their children.

I can't change the fact that Americans get a distorted view of world affairs, since most countries are similarly guilty of that. I can note that believing the Republican line on immigration right now is a sucker game, not unlike confusing Hamas with liberation or BiBi with good leadership.
"We must remember that we cannot abandon the truth and remain a free nation." --Liz Cheney, Republican, 7/21/22
JoeMemphis
Posts: 1496
Joined: Mon Oct 16, 2023 5:39 pm

Re: The issue that will define the 2024 election

Post by JoeMemphis »

ZoWie wrote: Thu Dec 28, 2023 11:39 am This argument falls apart because most people have done something illegal in their lives. As we know, for example, weed wasn't legal anywhere in the US until maybe 8-10 years ago.

Sneaking into a country without permission is a lot more serious than getting caught with a joint in your crotch, but you get the idea.

The idea that they come for work is valid, but given that Biden is actually not throwing open the border and letting in all comers, it's a dangerous journey. Boats sink, trucks burn, and of course hanging onto the landing gear of a jetliner is a bit of a breathing issue. Most people would not uproot and go halfway around the world trusting crooks and gangsters to get them there unless the alternative was starvation or violent death for them or their children.

I can't change the fact that Americans get a distorted view of world affairs, since most countries are similarly guilty of that. I can note that believing the Republican line on immigration right now is a sucker game, not unlike confusing Hamas with liberation or BiBi with good leadership.
Really? I can’t change the fact that Americans get a distorted view? Really? All you or anyone needs to do is look at the numbers pre Biden and post Biden. Just look at the numbers.

You have mayors in BLUE cities calling this a crisis. You have Obama’s Sec of Homeland Security calling it a crisis. Do they have a distorted view? We have allowed more people into this country than we had as soldiers in Europe at the end of WW2. What’s a “realistic” view? When does it stop being no big deal in your view?

If a President presented legislation to the Congress to allow 6 to 8 million people to stream across our borders, allow them to stay 4 to 5 years, provide benefits and social services knowing full well that they will not deported at the end of 5 years, all on the taxpayer’s dime, How much support do you think there would be in the Congress for that idea? I can tell you it would be dead on arrival. And yet that’s exactly what this POTUS has done via executive order. He is intentionally ignoring or refusing to enforce existing law.

So tell me what is distorted here Zowie. What did I miss?
User avatar
ZoWie
Posts: 5108
Joined: Sun Oct 24, 2021 4:39 pm
Location: The blue parts of the map

Re: The issue that will define the 2024 election

Post by ZoWie »

The problem has not increased in size since drumpf's brief unhappy reign. It has only increased in mass hysteria as carefully cultivated by the Republican Party because now it and its bought off Nooz talking heads have someone else to blame.

As long as putting your kids and/or yourself into the hands of human traffickers is preferable to staying home and being killed by gangs or starved by climate change, crop failures, and corrupt economics, people will continue to consider putting escaping to the developed world (not just the US, Europe has similar issues) an alternative to staying put and getting snuffed for sure. Life and death. So far I have seen nothing in this election campaign from either party which addresses the problem at its roots.
Last edited by ZoWie on Thu Dec 28, 2023 12:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"We must remember that we cannot abandon the truth and remain a free nation." --Liz Cheney, Republican, 7/21/22
Post Reply