Senate Border Plan

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Toonces
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Re: Senate Border Plan

Post by Toonces »

If someone is against support for Ukraine, I can only assume they're pro-Russia or haven't been paying attention.

Russia has made no secret of Ukraine just being their first step, of not being the only country they are targeting. Stopping them in Ukraine is key to ensuring that it doesn't become a much larger conflict. Putin has had this design since well before he took office. If Donald had been in office, would he have committed the USA to supporting Ukraine? I think a case could be made for 'no'. Putin wouldn't have changed his mind about invading Ukraine, it still would have happened. Biden has prevented Russian aggression from becoming a much higher cost, well beyond just monetary.

The same cannot be said for Israel. They would be perfectly fine without US help in their war with Hamas. They may have been a bit more judicial in their use of force. That may have/had benefited civilians. I've never quite understood blaming everything entirely on Hamas, saying that they knew Israel would do this as if Israel was obligated or had no choice. Israel did and does have a choice. I believe that ridding the world of Hamas could occur without so much destruction of life and land though I understand it's all extremely complex.
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ZoWie
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Re: Senate Border Plan

Post by ZoWie »

Gaza is actually rather simple. Things went badly, so a leader who had become ever more out of touch with reality thought it was fine to just leave it to fester. The tunnels were general knowledge and Hamas was a known threat, but everything made the situation worse.

The lesson learned is an old one.... don't do that.

Now, Putin. It's hard to separate rhetoric from reality, but his rhetoric should at least suggest that he does have fantasies about going all the way to Berlin.
Last edited by ZoWie on Wed Feb 07, 2024 11:30 am, edited 1 time in total.
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bradman
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Re: Senate Border Plan

Post by bradman »

Toonces wrote: Wed Feb 07, 2024 11:18 am If someone is against support for Ukraine, I can only assume they're pro-Russia or haven't been paying attention.

Russia has made no secret of Ukraine just being their first step, of not being the only country they are targeting. Stopping them in Ukraine is key to ensuring that it doesn't become a much larger conflict. Putin has had this design since well before he took office. If Donald had been in office, would he have committed the USA to supporting Ukraine? I think a case could be made for 'no'. Putin wouldn't have changed his mind about invading Ukraine, it still would have happened. Biden has prevented Russian aggression from becoming a much higher cost, well beyond just monetary.

The same cannot be said for Israel. They would be perfectly fine without US help in their war with Hamas. They may have been a bit more judicial in their use of force. That may have/had benefited civilians. I've never quite understood blaming everything entirely on Hamas, saying that they knew Israel would do this as if Israel was obligated or had no choice. Israel did and does have a choice. I believe that ridding the world of Hamas could occur without so much destruction of life and land though I understand it's all extremely complex.
[bold]Agreed. That and previous agreements is why half our naval forces are patrolling the Red Sea and not the Black Sea.
I am not a member of any organized political party. I am a Democrat. [Will Rogers]
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ZoWie
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Re: Senate Border Plan

Post by ZoWie »

Actually a rather small force by US military standards is in the Red Sea, but the region has the potential to create the biggest mess since WWII. This is due largely to the world being too dependent on Middle East oil and its highly vulnerable shipping lanes and pipelines.

The Black Sea has had wars since time immemorial. Crimea is a perfect navy base for controlling it, so that wretched little peninsula or whatever it is has a very bloody history. It's one of those European strategic things.
"We must remember that we cannot abandon the truth and remain a free nation." --Liz Cheney, Republican, 7/21/22
JoeMemphis
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Re: Senate Border Plan

Post by JoeMemphis »

Toonces wrote: Wed Feb 07, 2024 11:18 am If someone is against support for Ukraine, I can only assume they're pro-Russia or haven't been paying attention.

Russia has made no secret of Ukraine just being their first step, of not being the only country they are targeting. Stopping them in Ukraine is key to ensuring that it doesn't become a much larger conflict. Putin has had this design since well before he took office. If Donald had been in office, would he have committed the USA to supporting Ukraine? I think a case could be made for 'no'. Putin wouldn't have changed his mind about invading Ukraine, it still would have happened. Biden has prevented Russian aggression from becoming a much higher cost, well beyond just monetary.

The same cannot be said for Israel. They would be perfectly fine without US help in their war with Hamas. They may have been a bit more judicial in their use of force. That may have/had benefited civilians. I've never quite understood blaming everything entirely on Hamas, saying that they knew Israel would do this as if Israel was obligated or had no choice. Israel did and does have a choice. I believe that ridding the world of Hamas could occur without so much destruction of life and land though I understand it's all extremely complex.
What was Israel’s “choice”. That’s kinds like saying we had a “choice” after Pearl Harbor. The Japanese attacked us. Hamas attacked the Israeli’s. I don’t see where the Israelis had much choice. Accepting the attack without reacting signals weakness and invited further violence.
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Re: Senate Border Plan

Post by bradman »

JoeMemphis wrote: Wed Feb 07, 2024 11:39 am What was Israel’s “choice”. That’s kinds like saying we had a “choice” after Pearl Harbor. The Japanese attacked us. Hamas attacked the Israeli’s. I don’t see where the Israelis had much choice. Accepting the attack without reacting signals weakness and invited further violence.
And the same can't be said for Ukraine?
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JoeMemphis
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Re: Senate Border Plan

Post by JoeMemphis »

bradman wrote: Wed Feb 07, 2024 11:44 am And the same can't be said for Ukraine?
I don’t disagree.
gounion
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Re: Senate Border Plan

Post by gounion »

JoeMemphis wrote: Wed Feb 07, 2024 11:51 am I don’t disagree.
Then why do you support lawmakers that support Valdimir Putin, rather than the Unkraine people?

I mean, we fought for years in Vietnam and other places based upon the "Domino Theory" to keep communism from spreading - now we want to hand over the Ukraine to a KGB thug?
JoeMemphis
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Re: Senate Border Plan

Post by JoeMemphis »

gounion wrote: Wed Feb 07, 2024 12:22 pm Then why do you support lawmakers that support Valdimir Putin, rather than the Unkraine people?

I mean, we fought for years in Vietnam and other places based upon the "Domino Theory" to keep communism from spreading - now we want to hand over the Ukraine to a KGB thug?
Stupid question. Lawmakers that support Putin. You demonize those with whom you disagree. Go away.
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Re: Senate Border Plan

Post by gounion »

JoeMemphis wrote: Wed Feb 07, 2024 12:46 pm Stupid question. Lawmakers that support Putin. You demonize those with whom you disagree. Go away.
Do you think Republicans should support Vladimir Putin? Yes or no?
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Re: Senate Border Plan

Post by JoeMemphis »

gounion wrote: Wed Feb 07, 2024 12:49 pm Do you think Republicans should support Vladimir Putin? Yes or no?
You demonize everyone who doesn’t agree with you. Go away.
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Re: Senate Border Plan

Post by gounion »

JoeMemphis wrote: Wed Feb 07, 2024 12:54 pm You demonize everyone who doesn’t agree with you. Go away.
No one is better at demonizing people than your Dear Leader.

Do you consider Vladimir Putin a friend of America? Yes or no?
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Re: Senate Border Plan

Post by bradman »

JoeMemphis wrote: Wed Feb 07, 2024 11:51 am I don’t disagree.
Plan B is already unfolding. Sounds like it will pass the senate and once again be DOA in the house. Greene will again try to impeach Mayorkas and Johnson is once again being threatened with removal. Somethings gotta give.
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JoeMemphis
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Re: Senate Border Plan

Post by JoeMemphis »

gounion wrote: Wed Feb 07, 2024 2:26 pm No one is better at demonizing people than your Dear Leader.

Do you consider Vladimir Putin a friend of America? Yes or no?
And you beat Trump in that regard. Why do you mimic that which you hate?

You just prove my point. You know I neither associate myself with the Republican Party and you know I’m not a Trump supporter. Yet you ignore that. You also go out of your way to imply that Glenn and I follow along after him like North Koreans. So you demonize anyone and everyone who doesn’t agree with you regardless of whether they are members of this board or not. So when you ask stupid ass questions you can’t be taken seriously. You misrepresent and demonize everyone that disagrees with you. You are incapable of rational discussion. So you go to personal attacks. Just like Trump. Just as bad as Trump. Two sizes of the same rotten, corrupt dishonest coin.
JoeMemphis
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Re: Senate Border Plan

Post by JoeMemphis »

bradman wrote: Wed Feb 07, 2024 2:36 pm Plan B is already unfolding. Sounds like it will pass the senate and once again be DOA in the house. Greene will again try to impeach Mayorkas and Johnson is once again being threatened with removal. Somethings gotta give.
I guess we will see what happens. Seems to me regular order is the answer but nobody likes regular order anymore. We tend to wait until it’s a crisis.
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Toonces
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Re: Senate Border Plan

Post by Toonces »

JoeMemphis wrote: Wed Feb 07, 2024 11:39 am What was Israel’s “choice”. That’s kinds like saying we had a “choice” after Pearl Harbor. The Japanese attacked us. Hamas attacked the Israeli’s. I don’t see where the Israelis had much choice. Accepting the attack without reacting signals weakness and invited further violence.
The choice was a measured response or "shock and awe".

It's not just A or B. All or none.
JoeMemphis
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Re: Senate Border Plan

Post by JoeMemphis »

Toonces wrote: Wed Feb 07, 2024 2:54 pm The choice was a measured response or "shock and awe".

It's not just A or B. All or none.
I’m not sure what measured response would be appropriate when the aggressor launches a surprise assault murdering 1200 innocent men women and children and kidnapping 120 plus others. What’s a measured response to that?

I dunno Toonces. I don’t see how you aborb that kind of aggression and accept anything but unconditional surrender of your enemy. Maybe I’m missing something. Just an opinion.
gounion
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Re: Senate Border Plan

Post by gounion »

JoeMemphis wrote: Wed Feb 07, 2024 2:45 pm And you beat Trump in that regard. Why do you mimic that which you hate?

You just prove my point. You know I neither associate myself with the Republican Party and you know I’m not a Trump supporter. Yet you ignore that. You also go out of your way to imply that Glenn and I follow along after him like North Koreans. So you demonize anyone and everyone who doesn’t agree with you regardless of whether they are members of this board or not. So when you ask stupid ass questions you can’t be taken seriously. You misrepresent and demonize everyone that disagrees with you. You are incapable of rational discussion. So you go to personal attacks. Just like Trump. Just as bad as Trump. Two sizes of the same rotten, corrupt dishonest coin.
I note you won’t answer the question, just a personal attack.

Do you think Vladimir Putin is a friend of our nation? Yes or no?
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Re: Senate Border Plan

Post by gounion »

JoeMemphis wrote: Wed Feb 07, 2024 3:02 pm I’m not sure what measured response would be appropriate when the aggressor launches a surprise assault murdering 1200 innocent men women and children and kidnapping 120 plus others. What’s a measured response to that?

I dunno Toonces. I don’t see how you aborb that kind of aggression and accept anything but unconditional surrender of your enemy. Maybe I’m missing something. Just an opinion.
I dunno, but “you murder our children, we’re going to murder yours” seems to be an eye for an eye for another eye, until everyone is blind.
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Re: Senate Border Plan

Post by bradman »

JoeMemphis wrote: Wed Feb 07, 2024 2:47 pm I guess we will see what happens. Seems to me regular order is the answer but nobody likes regular order anymore. We tend to wait until it’s a crisis.
Is this "regular order" thing trending? A quick search gave me Thune......

https://www.google.com/search?q=john+th ... s-wiz-serp

Difficult to do when ya have nuts like Greene controlling the Republican party.
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gounion
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Re: Senate Border Plan

Post by gounion »

Now let’s be clear: Glenn says it wasn’t REALLY a bipartisan bill. But Oklahoma Senator James Lankford is a die-hard right-wing, border hawk Republican Senator, endorsed by Donald Trump. He was the one negotiating this bill, and if he liked it, I’d say there was a lot in it for the GOP. But here’s the reality of today’s GOP, straight from Lankford himself: https://www.businessinsider.com/james-l ... eal-2024-2
Sen. James Lankford of Oklahoma spoke on Wednesday about the political challenges he's encountered while serving as the top GOP negotiator on a bipartisan border security deal.

In a speech shortly before the expected failure of the deal, Lankford bemoaned the fact that some fellow Republicans were objecting to the bill for purely political reasons.

"Some of them have been very clear with me," Lankford said of his GOP colleagues, "they have political differences with the bill. They say it's the wrong time to solve the problem. We'll let the presidential election solve this problem."

Lankford went on to say that a "popular commentator" — without naming any names — threatened to "destroy" him if he negotiated the deal during a presidential election year, regardless of what was in it.

"I will do whatever I can to destroy you, because I do not want you to solve this during the presidential election," Lankford recounted the commentator saying.

"By the way, they have been faithful to their promise, and have done everything they can to destroy me," he added.


Ahead of the release of the text of the deal — which was negotiated following GOP demands to attach border security provisions to a bill to provide billions in aid to Ukraine and Israel — right-wing media outlets like Fox News promoted false claims about the deal, claiming it would amount to "amnesty."

And some Republicans admitted that politics was a key factor for them.

"I cannot vote for this bill," said Sen. John Barrasso of Wyoming, the third-highest ranking GOP senator, in his statement on the deal. "Americans will turn to the upcoming election to end the border crisis."

Following the expected failed vote, the Senate is expected to take up a bill to send billions in aid to Ukraine and Israel, but without any border security provisions.
So, Glenn, don’t fucking tell me that you and Joe want the problem solved, you just want an issue to campaign on. Neither of you give a fuck about the border or immigration.
JoeMemphis
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Re: Senate Border Plan

Post by JoeMemphis »

gounion wrote: Wed Feb 07, 2024 3:03 pm I note you won’t answer the question, just a personal attack.

Do you think Vladimir Putin is a friend of our nation? Yes or no?
Stupid question. No Vlad is not our friend.
JoeMemphis
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Re: Senate Border Plan

Post by JoeMemphis »

bradman wrote: Wed Feb 07, 2024 3:20 pm Is this "regular order" thing trending? A quick search gave me Thune......

https://www.google.com/search?q=john+th ... s-wiz-serp

Difficult to do when ya have nuts like Greene controlling the Republican party.
You guys crack me up. When you have a razor thin margin it’s hard to get anything difficult done. Common sense tells you that it’s like herding cats to get 215 people to agree 100 percent of the time. Nobody is controlling the GOP. Any member can basically throw a wrench into any vote. Thats how McCarthy lost his speakership. So contrary to what you may think, nobody is really in total control. That’s simply an unrealistic expectation. The speaker isn’t in total control.
gounion
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Re: Senate Border Plan

Post by gounion »

JoeMemphis wrote: Wed Feb 07, 2024 4:21 pm You guys crack me up. When you have a razor thin margin it’s hard to get anything difficult done. Common sense tells you that it’s like herding cats to get 215 people to agree 100 percent of the time. Nobody is controlling the GOP. Any member can basically throw a wrench into any vote. Thats how McCarthy lost his speakership. So contrary to what you may think, nobody is really in total control. That’s simply an unrealistic expectation. The speaker isn’t in total control.
Donald Trump controls the GOP. He controls the Speaker of the House. If you deny it, you are lying. Trump wanted Biden impeached, and they did it, even though they don’t have the voted. Trump wanted Secretary Mayorkas impeached, and they took it to a vote, and it failed yesterday.

Speaker Johnson is a Trump man, and played a key role in the attempt to overturn the 2020 election. https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/congre ... rcna122081

That’s why he’s Speaker, because Trump backed him. https://thehill.com/homenews/campaign/4 ... house-gop/

You pretending that Trump isn’t running things in the GOP is hilarious.

Now he’s saying his acolyte, Ronna McDaniel, has to resign from being the chair of the GOP, and she will resign.
bradman
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Re: Senate Border Plan

Post by bradman »

JoeMemphis wrote: Wed Feb 07, 2024 4:21 pm You guys crack me up. When you have a razor thin margin it’s hard to get anything difficult done. Common sense tells you that it’s like herding cats to get 215 people to agree 100 percent of the time. Nobody is controlling the GOP. Any member can basically throw a wrench into any vote. Thats how McCarthy lost his speakership. So contrary to what you may think, nobody is really in total control. That’s simply an unrealistic expectation. The speaker isn’t in total control.
[chuckle] That's it? Ohhhhhh..K.

Lots a rumors floating around that the GOP has its head up it's ass. Perhaps, the recent humiliating events written off as... "Democracy is messy" .....(Johnson's excuse today)....will fly. Who knows.
I am not a member of any organized political party. I am a Democrat. [Will Rogers]
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