Labor/Economics

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JoeMemphis

Re: Labor/Economics

Post by JoeMemphis »

bradman wrote: Fri Mar 10, 2023 9:47 am Come on man. The overhyped anti-woke messaging is a mandate.
You know Brad, there is all kinds of “messaging” going on these days. Personally, I’m a little tired of “wokeness” on both sides. A little common sense goes a long way. So if you are asking me if I favor parents weighing in on books and curriculum in public schools. I most certainly am. That isnt book banning or book burning. You can still find those books.

We currently lag behind other industrialized countries in math, science and other core subjects. Instead of worrying about things that should be left to the family, maybe our time and resources would be better spent teaching our students how to read and do math. I’m quite sure they will need those skills to compete in the marketplace of the future. It won’t matter how woke they are if they can’t make a decent living.
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Re: Labor/Economics

Post by bradman »

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mandate_(politics)
In representative democracies, a mandate is the authority granted by a constituency to act as its representative.[1] Elections, especially ones with a large margin of victory, are often said to give the newly elected government or elected official an implicit mandate to put into effect certain policies.[2] When a government seeks re-election they may introduce new policies as part of the campaign and are hoping for approval from the voters, and say they are seeking a "new mandate". Governments and elected officials may use language of a "mandate" to lend legitimacy to actions that they take in office.[3]
messaging
2.
the ideas or messages conveyed either explicitly or implicitly by a politician, advertising campaign, etc., or the way in which this is done.
"the debate is as much about political messaging as it is about policy"
The messaging is nothing less than an assault on a small group of minorities liberties.
I am not a member of any organized political party. I am a Democrat. [Will Rogers]
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Re: Labor/Economics

Post by bradman »

JoeMemphis wrote: Fri Mar 10, 2023 10:01 am You know Brad, there is all kinds of “messaging” going on these days. Personally, I’m a little tired of “wokeness” on both sides. A little common sense goes a long way. So if you are asking me if I favor parents weighing in on books and curriculum in public schools. I most certainly am. That isnt book banning or book burning. You can still find those books.

We currently lag behind other industrialized countries in math, science and other core subjects. Instead of worrying about things that should be left to the family, maybe our time and resources would be better spent teaching our students how to read and do math. I’m quite sure they will need those skills to compete in the marketplace of the future. It won’t matter how woke they are if they can’t make a decent living.
[bold] ya, i feel that.
I am not a member of any organized political party. I am a Democrat. [Will Rogers]
gounion
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Re: Labor/Economics

Post by gounion »

JoeMemphis wrote: Fri Mar 10, 2023 10:01 am You know Brad, there is all kinds of “messaging” going on these days. Personally, I’m a little tired of “wokeness” on both sides. A little common sense goes a long way. So if you are asking me if I favor parents weighing in on books and curriculum in public schools. I most certainly am. That isnt book banning or book burning. You can still find those books.

We currently lag behind other industrialized countries in math, science and other core subjects. Instead of worrying about things that should be left to the family, maybe our time and resources would be better spent teaching our students how to read and do math. I’m quite sure they will need those skills to compete in the marketplace of the future. It won’t matter how woke they are if they can’t make a decent living.
So empty the libraries. That's Florida's way to do things. Also stop teaching history, especially the parts of our nation's history they don't want black kids to know - oh, and also because it would make white kids feel bad.

That's what YOUR governor is doing, and YOU SUPPORT HIM DOING SO.

And science? You mean teaching the Bible as science, and refusing to teach REAL science, you know, biology?

You guys are so fucked up. What you want to teach is religion. Not science. Not math. Not history. RELIGION.
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Drak
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Re: Labor/Economics

Post by Drak »

I know there’s another current tropic going on, just thought I’d slip this in.

Ritchie Torres @RitchieTorres
HUGE: The US economy added a robust 311,000 jobs in February, again outperforming expectations.

Fun Fact: Tomorrow marks two years since President Biden signed the "American Rescue Plan Act" into law.
"Some of those that work forces,
Are the same that burn crosses"

- Rage Against the Machine
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Drak
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Re: Labor/Economics

Post by Drak »

gounion wrote: Fri Mar 10, 2023 10:12 am So empty the libraries. That's Florida's way to do things. Also stop teaching history, especially the parts of our nation's history they don't want black kids to know - oh, and also because it would make white kids feel bad.

That's what YOUR governor is doing, and YOU SUPPORT HIM DOING SO.

And science? You mean teaching the Bible as science, and refusing to teach REAL science, you know, biology?

You guys are so fucked up. What you want to teach is religion. Not science. Not math. Not history. RELIGION.
The “government overreach” whiner guy supports a government that bans books on top of everything else. I’ve never seen a bigger dumbass hypocrite.
"Some of those that work forces,
Are the same that burn crosses"

- Rage Against the Machine
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Re: Labor/Economics

Post by gounion »

Drak wrote: Fri Mar 10, 2023 10:32 am The “government overreach” whiner guy supports a government that bans books on top of everything else. I’ve never seen a bigger dumbass hypocrite.
Basically what Joe is saying is that those books are still available for sale - so that families with money have no problem at all. It's the kids that don't have the ability to log onto Amazon and get whatever they want that will never see the books, and guess what.

Joe don't give a shit.
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ProfX
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Re: Labor/Economics

Post by ProfX »

JoeMemphis wrote: Fri Mar 10, 2023 7:35 am No one should pass laws that circumvent parental knowledge or consent when it comes to their children.
As you might know, I can't agree to that without exceptions. If the child is gay or considers themselves trans and they feel telling their parents will result in them being harmed or killed ... there should be caution. I think the rule that takes precedence over that is "do no harm".

On other subjects, I agree parents should decide what their children can't read or watch, I just don't agree they get to make that decision for other peoples' children. Forbid your kids from reading Toni Morrison or about Roberto Clemente Jr. if you want - just don't stop mine.

BTW, if we weren't teaching our students how to read, I don't think we'd have to worry about what they're reading. :lol: I don't know what "wokeness" is but besides basic skills, we also lag other countries often in knowledge of geography, other peoples' cultures, and foreign affairs. Making a living in a globalized world requires understanding groups & cultures besides your own. I don't think this can be corrected by shielding them from books or things outside the familiar. :D
"Don't believe every quote attributed to people on the Internet" -- Abraham Lincoln :D
JoeMemphis

Re: Labor/Economics

Post by JoeMemphis »

ProfX wrote: Fri Mar 10, 2023 1:48 pm As you might know, I can't agree to that without exceptions. If the child is gay or considers themselves trans and they feel telling their parents will result in them being harmed or killed ... there should be caution. I think the rule that takes precedence over that is "do no harm".

On other subjects, I agree parents should decide what their children can't read or watch, I just don't agree they get to make that decision for other peoples' children. Forbid your kids from reading Toni Morrison or about Roberto Clemente Jr. if you want - just don't stop mine.

BTW, if we weren't teaching our students how to read, I don't think we'd have to worry about what they're reading. :lol: I don't know what "wokeness" is but besides basic skills, we also lag other countries often in knowledge of geography, other peoples' cultures, and foreign affairs. Making a living in a globalized world requires understanding groups & cultures besides your own. I don't think this can be corrected by shielding them from books or things outside the familiar. :D
Yeah well I don’t know about your local school library but I suspect that it doesn’t contain every book known to man. Someone has to decide what books get into that library. Besides Prof, if you want your kids to read a book not in the school library, there are other libraries. Nobody is saying you or your kid can’t read whatever book you deem appropriate.

As far as basic skills, there are core skills that every child should know. How to read and write. How to add and subtract. Basic science. Understanding groups and cultures is important but it wont make a difference if you can’t make a living. To do that you need those basic skills.
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ProfX
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Re: Labor/Economics

Post by ProfX »

Yes, and in all educational systems I know of, including the one in the U.S., we start with basic subjects and skills, then move on to more advanced ones. You may not take Social Studies until around 7th or 8th grade, but I hope you have learned how to read and do basic math by that point. I have no idea why you keep posting this as either/or, all educators I know of in K-12 think you master the basics, then do more advanced subjects. You learn addition and subtraction before fractions, algebra, or calculus. As it should be. I would agree the U.S. sometimes underperforms compared to other comparable developed countries on K-12 subjects, and yet, foreign students are coming from all over the world to attend our universities. "Wokeness" has nothing to do with it.

I also think that in many types of work, understanding other cultures and societies in a globalized world is necessary to make a living. Increasingly in all the types of work students today are doing. As many of my students have told me, by the way. Much of this you will get from a university, but there are good reasons to begin teaching the foundations of it in K-12.

Cheers.
"Don't believe every quote attributed to people on the Internet" -- Abraham Lincoln :D
JoeMemphis

Re: Labor/Economics

Post by JoeMemphis »

ProfX wrote: Fri Mar 10, 2023 2:21 pm Yes, and in all educational systems I know of, including the one in the U.S., we start with basic subjects and skills, then move on to more advanced ones. You may not take Social Studies until around 7th or 8th grade, but I hope you have learned how to read and do basic math by that point. I have no idea why you keep posting this as either/or, all educators I know of in K-12 think you master the basics, then do more advanced subjects. You learn addition and subtraction before fractions, algebra, or calculus. As it should be. I would agree the U.S. sometimes underperforms compared to other comparable developed countries on K-12 subjects, and yet, foreign students are coming from all over the world to attend our universities. "Wokeness" has nothing to do with it.

I also think that in many types of work, understanding other cultures and societies in a globalized world is necessary to make a living. Increasingly in all the types of work students today are doing. As many of my students have told me, by the way. Much of this you will get from a university, but there are good reasons to begin teaching the foundations of it in K-12.

Cheers.
We aren’t talking about universities. I keep posting it because we are failing to teach the basics in K-12. So we aren’t “mastering” the basics.
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ProfX
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Re: Labor/Economics

Post by ProfX »

Maybe we need to reconsider how we teach math. BTW, even if we score 31st, at least we're not at the bottom.

US Students Lag Other Countries in Math. The Reason Probably Lies in How Schools Teach It
https://uwm.edu/education/us-students-l ... -teach-it/

The latest results of an international exam given to teenagers ranked the USA ninth in reading and 31st in math literacy out of 79 countries and economies. America has a smaller-than-average share of top-performing math students, and scores have essentially been flat for two decades.

One likely reason: U.S. high schools teach math differently than other countries.

Classes here often focus on formulas and procedures rather than teaching students to think creatively about solving complex problems involving all sorts of mathematics, experts said. That makes it harder for students to compete globally, be it on an international exam or in colleges and careers that value sophisticated thinking and data science.

[snip][end]

"Wokeness" of education isn't the problem. How we teach math is. ... and maybe knowing how other countries teach math and are scoring better could help. ;)
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Re: Labor/Economics

Post by gounion »

So Joe wants parents to know everything about their kids and to control them completely. I wonder if Joe had any secrets from his parents before he turned 18.
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Re: Labor/Economics

Post by Glennfs »

gounion wrote: Fri Mar 10, 2023 3:02 pm So Joe wants parents to know everything about their kids and to control them completely. I wonder if Joe had any secrets from his parents before he turned 18.
Another exaggeration as well as parenting advice from a man with no children.
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Number6
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Re: Labor/Economics

Post by Number6 »

Under Arkansas HB1410, TO REVISE THE CHILD LABOR LAWS; AND TO CREATE THE "YOUTH HIRING ACT OF 2023" the changes to the law are:
(b) The purpose of this act is to:
(1) Dispense with the state's requirement that children under sixteen (16) years of age have to obtain permission from the Division of Labor in order to be employed;
(2) Restore decision-making to parents concerning their children; and
(3) Streamline the hiring process for children under sixteen (16) years of age.
(c) The General Assembly finds that:
(1) Children under sixteen (16) years of age should not be required to obtain an employment certificate as a condition of employment; and
(2) The division should not require that a child under sixteen (16) years of age verify proof of their age through an employment certificate
https://www.arkleg.state.ar.us/Bills/De ... 23%2F2023R
The problem I have with the above is it opens up children to exploitation with the state's blessings. The decision of whether a child can work has always been a parent's decision. However, any dangerous work and/or work that would affect their health, safety, and well-being the state rightfully has a duty to protect the child. A certificate as a condition of employment needs to be on file with local and/or state government defining what the job requirements, duties, and what the responsibilities the child will perform are.

I have a neighbor whose son in around 15 years old and works in a local hardware store. The work isn't dangerous and it's more like any retail job in which he stocks shelves, helps customers, and works the cash register so, IMO, that's an acceptable job for a teenager. An unacceptable job would be working in a meat processing factory using sharp knives and machinery designed for cutting. There are hundreds of jobs teenagers can perform but the protection of the child must come first and therefore it is reasonable for the state to require certain condition of employment on the child as well as the employer.
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gounion
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Re: Labor/Economics

Post by gounion »

Glennfs wrote: Fri Mar 10, 2023 3:05 pm Another exaggeration as well as parenting advice from a man with no children.
Oh? I don't think one has to have children to advocate for them. I was a child once.

Children aren't chattel. I bet YOU did things that your parents didn't condone when YOU were a kid. I bet YOU were sexually active before you were 18. But here you are advocating for parents - and governments - total control over kid's lives.
JoeMemphis

Re: Labor/Economics

Post by JoeMemphis »

ProfX wrote: Fri Mar 10, 2023 2:47 pm Maybe we need to reconsider how we teach math. BTW, even if we score 31st, at least we're not at the bottom.

US Students Lag Other Countries in Math. The Reason Probably Lies in How Schools Teach It
https://uwm.edu/education/us-students-l ... -teach-it/

The latest results of an international exam given to teenagers ranked the USA ninth in reading and 31st in math literacy out of 79 countries and economies. America has a smaller-than-average share of top-performing math students, and scores have essentially been flat for two decades.

One likely reason: U.S. high schools teach math differently than other countries.

Classes here often focus on formulas and procedures rather than teaching students to think creatively about solving complex problems involving all sorts of mathematics, experts said. That makes it harder for students to compete globally, be it on an international exam or in colleges and careers that value sophisticated thinking and data science.

[snip][end]

"Wokeness" of education isn't the problem. How we teach math is. ... and maybe knowing how other countries teach math and are scoring better could help. ;)
I don’t think a goal on not being last is worthy of discussion. Since when do we strive for not being dead last? Maybe THAT’S the problem. If your goal is anything above an “F”, you are gonna see a whole hellava lot of D’s.

I agree with you on math. They should teach every student basic logic in the 8th or 9th grade. If you understand logical thinking, math and science become much easier.

Let’s worry about that.
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Re: Labor/Economics

Post by gounion »

Number6 wrote: Fri Mar 10, 2023 3:08 pm Under Arkansas HB1410, TO REVISE THE CHILD LABOR LAWS; AND TO CREATE THE "YOUTH HIRING ACT OF 2023" the changes to the law are:


The problem I have with the above is it opens up children to exploitation with the state's blessings. The decision of whether a child can work has always been a parent's decision. However, any dangerous work and/or work that would affect their health, safety, and well-being the state rightfully has a duty to protect the child. A certificate as a condition of employment needs to be on file with local and/or state government defining what the job requirements, duties, and what the responsibilities the child will perform are.

I have a neighbor whose son in around 15 years old and works in a local hardware store. The work isn't dangerous and it's more like any retail job in which he stocks shelves, helps customers, and works the cash register so, IMO, that's an acceptable job for a teenager. An unacceptable job would be working in a meat processing factory using sharp knives and machinery designed for cutting. There are hundreds of jobs teenagers can perform but the protection of the child must come first and therefore it is reasonable for the state to require certain condition of employment on the child as well as the employer.
Well, if SC passes such a law, maybe Glenn can get his grade-school-age grandson a job at that rim plant up the road from him.

Notice how the right wants to abolish every law passed since 1930?
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Re: Labor/Economics

Post by gounion »

JoeMemphis wrote: Fri Mar 10, 2023 3:10 pm I don’t think a goal on not being last is worthy of discussion. Since when do we strive for not being dead last? Maybe THAT’S the problem. If your goal is anything above an “F”, you are gonna see a whole hellava lot of D’s.

I agree with you on math. They should teach every student basic logic in the 8th or 9th grade. If you understand logical thinking, math and science become much easier.

Let’s worry about that.
They didn't teach YOU the difference between a fact and an opinion. Nor did they teach you basic logic, like what are logical fallacies.

Or maybe they did and you simply didn't learn.
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Re: Labor/Economics

Post by gounion »

Great op/ed that shows the total lack of logic or empathy from the right. https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions ... ri-satire/
I care a great deal about the children. That is why I am proud to announce that we are rolling back child labor laws. We cannot sit by and let people who would squander our most precious resource, our children, by forcing them to waste time sitting in libraries and enjoying story hours, when they could be operating heavy machinery for low pay.

We must protect the children from the greatest threat they face: gun violence idleness. For too long, they have been coddled, giving nothing to society other than colds, items that are sticky for unclear reasons, and bad, nonrepresentative drawings that suggest their parents are the same height as their homes. No longer. Now, they will be given an opportunity long denied them: the opportunity to work hard, long, unregulated hours! As I have always said, we must stop trapping children in failing schools. Take them out of those schools and make them work for wages!

If there is one thing I know about children, it is that they love to operate machinery, and they would operate more if we did not keep stopping them. Yet, instead of harnessing their natural inclination toward electrical outlets, power tools and sharp objects generally, we waste all that potential — child-proofing our homes, covering the outlets and hiding the electric drills. What a loss for society! What a senseless waste of natural ability!
Image without a caption

Give a child a model backhoe and she will clap her plump hands together with delight and cry, “Dada! Dada!” Well, how much more would the child enjoy operating an actual backhoe? THIS MUCH. (Imagine that I am holding my hands out very big.) Think of all the time children waste in fake kitchens, preparing plastic meals in nonfunctional ovens, when they could be working on actual production lines, packaging real meat and processing real dairy! I am glad to see that some lucky newcomers already are! But we cannot stop with them. We must not rest until every child has the same opportunities.

Every child sitting in a library — or having a book read to them by anyone, in drag or not — is a societal failure. I feel the same way about it as I feel when I see a book generally: enraged, and confused.

I care about the children, just as I care about our old-growth forests: They are a valuable resource that should be harvested for money. I am glad to see burgeoning bipartisan agreement on this point. Children have been spoiled for too long. It is time they worked — like everyone else.

This is why it so upsets me to see a child reading the Upton Sinclair classic, “The Jungle.” One: a child is reading a book (dangerous, bad, why is child not working?) and two, the “Jungle” negatively portrays children working in meat production.

How dare these children, with their small, nimble fingers, fritter away even a moment that they could be spending sweeping a chimney or, perhaps, working in a coal mine? If minors weren’t supposed to be mining, why is it right there in the name? There are only so many hours in the day, and every hour children spend in a library being exposed to ideas, or playing (even if they are playing at farming, a noble trade), or singing a little song to themselves just for fun, or making friends, or laughing because someone is wearing a silly hat, is an hour they will not be able to receive extremely low wages for doing a dangerous task. How sad. Our children are a valuable resource. We must protect them, at all costs.

What good is a nation that cannot protect its children?
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Re: Labor/Economics

Post by gounion »

What gets me is how the right wants to “protect children” (except against being shot), and make sure they don’t hear anything about cross-dressing, or homosexuality, or even sex, before they’re eighteen, because BY GOD they OWN their children, want to make sure they aren’t exposed to ANYTHING sexual at all. Of course, that’s not the life THEY lived. Joe may not have even gotten a kiss before he was eighteen - judging from Joe on this board, he probably wasn’t very popular - but we see again today about the hypocrisy of the right. Congresswoman Lauren Boebert, at the head of the censorship line, demanding how other people live, was an unmarried mother at 17, and today she announced her unmarried 17-year-old son has fathered a child out of wedlock too.

To all you hypocritical assholes - you can’t even run your own lives, I’ll be DAMNED if you’ll run mine!
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Re: Labor/Economics

Post by bradman »

JoeMemphis wrote: Fri Mar 10, 2023 2:13 pm Yeah well I don’t know about your local school library but I suspect that it doesn’t contain every book known to man. Someone has to decide what books get into that library. Besides Prof, if you want your kids to read a book not in the school library, there are other libraries. Nobody is saying you or your kid can’t read whatever book you deem appropriate.

As far as basic skills, there are core skills that every child should know. How to read and write. How to add and subtract. Basic science. Understanding groups and cultures is important but it wont make a difference if you can’t make a living. To do that you need those basic skills.
[bold] One group enjoys reading their books in a school library, the other group has to seek out a safe place to read theirs. Kinda sounds like separate but equal.
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Re: Labor/Economics

Post by ProfX »

Both public libraries and school libraries have been challenged by parents. If they're doing it at every library in a small town, where does your kid go exactly? I understand "but it's on Amazon" is the reflexive response, but it kind of forgets the mission for which libraries were created.

If you don't want your kid to read Toni Morrison, tell them not to read it (I might not agree with you, but I do agree it's not my call), don't take it out of the library so other kids can't read it. You as a parent can make sure (I guess you even should) your kid doesn't watch R-rated movies, but you don't stop them from being shown in town.

DePutin keeps crying about a "hoax" in Florida but here's what's not the hoax. Any book - ANY book - challenged by parents needs to now be reviewed by state staff prior to being put on shelves. With a shortage of such staff, it can take a long time for these texts to be approved, and they are not on shelves until this process is complete (IF they receive approval). That is no hoax.

Just because there is a parent in Florida who thinks the Teletubbies are turning his kid gay, doesn't mean we need to take it off the air. So no, I think this is a ridiculous process. Not all parental challenges are reasonable nor should every challenged text be removed from the shelves before it's reviewed.
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Re: Labor/Economics

Post by Number6 »

ProfX wrote: Sat Mar 11, 2023 2:15 pm Both public libraries and school libraries have been challenged by parents. If they're doing it at every library in a small town, where does your kid go exactly? I understand "but it's on Amazon" is the reflexive response, but it kind of forgets the mission for which libraries were created.

If you don't want your kid to read Toni Morrison, tell them not to read it (I might not agree with you, but I do agree it's not my call), don't take it out of the library so other kids can't read it. You as a parent can make sure (I guess you even should) your kid doesn't watch R-rated movies, but you don't stop them from being shown in town.
Conservatives keep saying they want smaller government, government out of their lives, local control, and control of what their children learn in school. Yet, they can't define how big or small "smaller government" should be. They want government out of their lives but they definitely want to put their government into everyone else's life. They talk about local control but they mean they want state and federal money but not with the strings that come with it. They want to prohibit books/subjects their children can taught instead of exercising control over their children by telling them not to read those books.

Talk about a con job!
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Re: Labor/Economics

Post by JoeMemphis »

bradman wrote: Sat Mar 11, 2023 12:39 pm [bold] One group enjoys reading their books in a school library, the other group has to seek out a safe place to read theirs. Kinda sounds like separate but equal.
I don’t see it Brad. I don’t think anyone is saying a child cannot read whatever the parent allows them to read. All that is being said is that some materials will not be in the school library. Not every book gets in your local school library. Somebody decides what gets it and what doesn’t.
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