So is this why Trump buried Ivana at his golf course?

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carmenjonze
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Re: So is this why Trump buried Ivana at his golf course?

Post by carmenjonze »

JoeMemphis wrote: Mon Aug 15, 2022 6:04 pm I’m perfectly happy to ask Glenn to stop using such rhetoric. How about you do the same to the board members here who use the same type of rhetoric towards conservative board members.
Shut up you whiny, entitled crybaby.

You’re lucky anyone speaks to you or allows your ignorant, confederate asses to even be members, at all.

The reverse would NEVER be allowed on conservative sites.
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carmenjonze
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Re: So is this why Trump buried Ivana at his golf course?

Post by carmenjonze »

I could really GAS if these conservatives are butthurt by the way they’re regarded around here.

I could also really GAS if labels like “ Nazi” hurts their gossamer feelings.

Their party has literal neonazis in it, and they excuse and prop up the behavior, again, of literal neonazis.

F. these entitled snowflakes.
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Libertas
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Re: So is this why Trump buried Ivana at his golf course?

Post by Libertas »

carmenjonze wrote: Mon Aug 15, 2022 7:23 pm I could really GAS if these conservatives are butthurt by the way they’re regarded around here.

I could also really GAS if labels like “ Nazi” hurts their gossamer feelings.

Their party has literal neonazis in it, and they excuse and prop up the behavior, again, of literal neonazis.

F. these entitled snowflakes.
That was my initial thought, but as you can see, I thought it was time they were shown what the world thinks of them.

Looks like in Wyoming, America no longer matters, Cheney will lose.
I sigh in your general direction.
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Re: So is this why Trump buried Ivana at his golf course?

Post by carmenjonze »

Libertas wrote: Mon Aug 15, 2022 7:31 pm That was my initial thought, but as you can see, I thought it was time they were shown what the world thinks of them.

Looks like in Wyoming, America no longer matters, Cheney will lose.
I’m not seeing whee I ought to care about these people’s feelings when the only thing that prompts any feelings out of them is munny and oppressing others.

They sure af don’t care about anyone here.

F. them. F. her, too, that whole dirty party belongs in the city dump.
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JoeMemphis

Re: So is this why Trump buried Ivana at his golf course?

Post by JoeMemphis »

ProfX wrote: Mon Aug 15, 2022 6:25 pm People, stop saying all conservatives are Nazis.

(BTW, you haven't told me who does this. But there you go. :D )

Oh and BTW2: I call Viktor Orban and Donald Trump right-populist authoritarians. I stick by that. Some call that "fascist lite". I wouldn't resist the implication, but I stick by my wording. :mrgreen:

Also, incidentally, I would also apply that to Erdogan, Putin, Mohammed Bin Salman, and both the past and present dictators of the Philippines. :D

Marine Le Pen is a fascist. No qualifications.

This is Steve Bannon, who helped her campaign.

Image

Those who think Bannon only wanted to reshape the U.S. were not paying attention. Like all extreme and totalizing ideologues, he will only be satisfied with deconstructing the entire world.
My point here is simple so you might have missed it. The country is highly polarized and the political leadership is also highly polarized and therefore incapable of working together. Whether you want to admit it or not politics is a team sport. Half of the team is at war with the other half. It’s no wonder things don’t get done. If this were any other endeavor it would flame out. I don’t see it changing until someone new comes along. I don’t see anyone in current leadership who can pull this off. Until then, I guess we will continue to stumble along the way things are.

No wonder people who identify as independent continues to grow.
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Re: So is this why Trump buried Ivana at his golf course?

Post by ProfX »

JoeMemphis wrote: Tue Aug 16, 2022 10:37 am The country is highly polarized and the political leadership is also highly polarized and therefore incapable of working together.
Disagree.

Congress passes bipartisan legislation to reduce violence 
https://www.aha.org/news/headline/2022- ... e-violence

Ultimately, the PACT Act did pass with bipartisan support in both chambers.

I certainly wouldn't dispute those moments are rare.

I personally see a lot of things that should get bipartisan support, but don't. At the moment, it seems like a lot of the other team might agree with the legislation, but doesn't want the coach of the blue team getting a win. (CHIPS act, for example.) I definitely agree that is a problem.

Both parties should be supporting voting rights, upholding of democratic norms, a free and unfettered press ... just as examples. Kind of sad they don't. But I know which side, which team, seems to be doing worse on that score.
Whether you want to admit it or not politics is a team sport.
Only the way we play it in America. In Europe, where there often are five or more parties in the chamber, often jockeying for ascendancy, and usually only forming parliamentary majorities through coalitions, it's a lot of shifting alliances.

Maybe not the best analogy, but it's a bit more like Game of Thrones. There are not just two teams. :D
I don’t see it changing until someone new comes along.
Who is that new person and what about their newness would make anything different?

I personally would argue causes of political polarization in America are a lot of things:
a) the media and social media landscape ... of course.
b) economic inequality, social inequality, and other structural factors.
c) an increasing abandonment of democratic norms

Just changing out the faces doesn't seem like it really does anything about any of that.

Seems to me you should be supporting the Forward Party, Joe. Are you?
Last edited by ProfX on Tue Aug 16, 2022 10:54 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: So is this why Trump buried Ivana at his golf course?

Post by carmenjonze »

JoeMemphis wrote: Tue Aug 16, 2022 10:37 am My point here is simple
Simple point from the town simpleton.
Whether you want to admit it or not politics is a team sport. Half of the team is at war with the other half.
Ridiculous, stupid string of unfounded assertions.

“Politics” is not a binary, zero-sum game.

Nor is it a “war,” what an insult to people who have actually been through wars.

Leave it to conservative males to come up with these stupid “war” metaphors, to begin with: war on terror, war on drugs, war criminals n crime, culture wars…the quickest, dirtiest metaphors you guys are capable of coming up with always involve killing, destruction, and mass violence. problem:
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gounion
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Re: So is this why Trump buried Ivana at his golf course?

Post by gounion »

JoeMemphis wrote: Tue Aug 16, 2022 10:37 am My point here is simple so you might have missed it. The country is highly polarized and the political leadership is also highly polarized and therefore incapable of working together. Whether you want to admit it or not politics is a team sport. Half of the team is at war with the other half. It’s no wonder things don’t get done. If this were any other endeavor it would flame out. I don’t see it changing until someone new comes along. I don’t see anyone in current leadership who can pull this off. Until then, I guess we will continue to stumble along the way things are.

No wonder people who identify as independent continues to grow.
President Obama tried working with the GOP their only comment was to make Obama a one term President. Biden also tried to work with them. It takes two sides to work together only one not to. You vote for the ones that refuse. So that’s obviously what you want.
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Re: So is this why Trump buried Ivana at his golf course?

Post by Bludogdem »

JoeMemphis wrote: Tue Aug 16, 2022 10:37 am My point here is simple so you might have missed it. The country is highly polarized and the political leadership is also highly polarized and therefore incapable of working together. Whether you want to admit it or not politics is a team sport. Half of the team is at war with the other half. It’s no wonder things don’t get done. If this were any other endeavor it would flame out. I don’t see it changing until someone new comes along. I don’t see anyone in current leadership who can pull this off. Until then, I guess we will continue to stumble along the way things are.

No wonder people who identify as independent continues to grow.

As of July 2022 41% are independent.

https://news.gallup.com/poll/15370/part ... ation.aspx

I’d say that currently favors the Democratic Party in Senate races and clearly in the Presidency if trump runs.

I know a number of folks who vote forRob Portman that have declared their vote for Tim Ryan.
JoeMemphis

Re: So is this why Trump buried Ivana at his golf course?

Post by JoeMemphis »

ProfX wrote: Tue Aug 16, 2022 10:50 am Disagree.

Congress passes bipartisan legislation to reduce violence 
https://www.aha.org/news/headline/2022- ... e-violence

Ultimately, the PACT Act did pass with bipartisan support in both chambers.

I certainly wouldn't dispute those moments are rare.

I personally see a lot of things that should get bipartisan support, but don't. At the moment, it seems like a lot of the other team might agree with the legislation, but doesn't want the coach of the blue team getting a win. (CHIPS act, for example.) I definitely agree that is a problem.



Only the way we play it in America. In Europe, where there often are five or more parties in the chamber, often jockeying for ascendancy, and usually only forming parliamentary majorities through coalitions, it's a lot of shifting alliances.

Maybe not the best analogy, but it's a bit more like Game of Thrones. There are not just two teams. :D



Who is that new person and what about their newness would make anything different?

I personally would argue causes of political polarization in America are a lot of things:
a) the media and social media landscape ... of course.
b) economic inequality, social inequality, and other structural factors.
c) an increasing abandonment of democratic norms

Just changing out the faces doesn't seem like it really does anything about any of that.

Seems to me you should be supporting the Forward Party, Joe. Are you?
Bipartisanship is indeed rare. Hyper partisanship has been a problem for a number of years. It gets worse with every administration. We are stuck for the moment with two highly partisan parties and a growing number of independents who lean one way or the other. This isn’t Europe nor do I think it will become Europe.

As far as new faces, it will take someone capable of working effectively with both parties. We haven’t seen that in a while nor do I think the current crop is capable of pulling off that feat. So someone will have to rise to the occasion. Passing major legislation thru reconciliation on narrow party line votes is no way to run a country IMO and speaks volumes about the dysfunction in government.

As far as party affiliation, I wouldn’t want to be know as a member of either party at this time. I am tired of voting for the lesser of two evils.
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Re: So is this why Trump buried Ivana at his golf course?

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JoeMemphis wrote: Tue Aug 16, 2022 11:07 am Bipartisanship is indeed rare. Hyper partisanship has been a problem for a number of years. It gets worse with every administration. We are stuck for the moment with two highly partisan parties and a growing number of independents who lean one way or the other. This isn’t Europe nor do I think it will become Europe.

As far as new faces, it will take someone capable of working effectively with both parties. We haven’t seen that in a while nor do I think the current crop is capable of pulling off that feat. So someone will have to rise to the occasion. Passing major legislation thru reconciliation on narrow party line votes is no way to run a country IMO and speaks volumes about the dysfunction in government.

As far as party affiliation, I wouldn’t want to be know as a member of either party at this time. I am tired of voting for the lesser of two evils.
So was Barack Obama evil? He was quite bipartisan. He put together a bipartisan committee for health care, gave the GOP everything they demanded, and then none of them would vote for it.
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Re: So is this why Trump buried Ivana at his golf course?

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This has been reported on many times, and does not appear to have changed.

Few Americans Who Identify As Independent Are Actually Independent. That’s Really Bad For Politics.
https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/fe ... -politics/

On the one hand, more Americans identifying as independent probably doesn’t seem like a bad thing. Independents are often portrayed as more open-minded and less dogmatic in their political views. And in a nation whose founders feared factional politics, the value of political independence is also an attractive one to many Americans.

The problem is that few independents are actually independent. Roughly 3 in 4 independents still lean toward one of the two major political parties, and studies show that these voters aren’t all that different from the voters in the party they lean toward. Independents who lean toward a party also tend to back that party at almost the same rate as openly partisan voters.

“Independents tend not to look all that different from partisans,” said Samara Klar, a political scientist at the University of Arizona and co-author of the book “Independent Politics.” “But they do tend to be more averse to identifying themselves as a partisan when there is a negative stigma associated with partisanship. So, it’s really the arguments, the hostility, the negativity that seems to be driving this behavior.”

[snip]

In fact, we’ve already seen some of the consequences of this, as elected officials from the two parties are increasingly far apart ideologically, both in Congress and at the state level. The abandonment of voters openly identifying with one of the two parties has led to less political engagement, which means Americans are exerting less influence on what the parties look and sound like. That’s a real problem since the parties are still the fundamental building blocks that organize our politics. But with party building left to more stringent partisans, the parties’ bases have largely cultivated candidates who tend to be more ideologically extreme than the voters they seek to represent.

[snip][end]

One poli sci study showed Americans say they hate partisan bickering, but when they were showed a negative campaign ad they rated it as a great political ad. They hate partisan bickering, they hate negative campaigning, so they say ... and yet there is a reason why campaigns run negative campaign ads ... the consultants know they work. People SAY they hate these ads and they don't influence them, but the reality is otherwise. Kind of reminds me of the people who say they are not affected by advertising for products on TV. I guess the ad agencies are spending billions on shit that doesn't work. :roll: (P.S they may be short-horizon but they're not that dumb.)

It sort of reminds me of people who complain about boorish and angry behavior at sporting events toward fans of the other team, and then, of course do the same crap. And are caught on camera doing it.

Most independents, aren't what people really mean by "independent". :lol:

Humans. I love 'em. May they never change.
Last edited by ProfX on Tue Aug 16, 2022 11:28 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: So is this why Trump buried Ivana at his golf course?

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JoeMemphis wrote: Tue Aug 16, 2022 11:07 am This isn’t Europe nor do I think it will become Europe.
To be clear, parliamentary democracies bring their own unique problems. Structural stability of government is one. Just ask Italy. :mrgreen:

... but yes, of course, it's impossible, to convert the U.S. to a parliamentary system would require dozens of Constitutional amendments. Yeah, it ain't gonna happen.

... that said, changing the way we vote ... well that's a subject I've discussed many times, and it really wouldn't even require amending anything.
So someone will have to rise to the occasion.
Waiting for Godot has never struck me as a sound political strategy.
As far as party affiliation, I wouldn’t want to be know as a member of either party at this time. I am tired of voting for the lesser of two evils.
" Either"again implies there are only two parties. :mrgreen:

There have been many third parties in America. They even occasionally win a seat or two, mostly in state or local elections. The Greens and the Libertarians are the most well known. I personally like a lot of the Green platform ... alas, their main political strategy for the last decade or so has been to run morons for POTUS and it's not working for them. :|

The Forward Party says they are all about forming a party for independents and centrists, Joe. They want to be a party of people who, again, say they are part of the disillusioned middle tired of partisan warfare at the extremes. What you're wishing for has arrived. What a shock, you didn't even know it. :D
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JoeMemphis

Re: So is this why Trump buried Ivana at his golf course?

Post by JoeMemphis »

ProfX wrote: Tue Aug 16, 2022 11:24 am To be clear, parliamentary democracies bring their own unique problems. Structural stability of government is one. Just ask Italy. :mrgreen:

... but yes, of course, it's impossible, to convert the U.S. to a parliamentary system would require dozens of Constitutional amendments. Yeah, it ain't gonna happen.

... that said, changing the way we vote ... well that's a subject I've discussed many times, and it really wouldn't even require amending anything.



Waiting for Godot has never struck me as a sound political strategy.



" Either"again implies there are only two parties. :mrgreen:

There have been many third parties in America. They even occasionally win a seat or two, mostly in state or local elections. The Greens and the Libertarians are the most well known. I personally like a lot of the Green platform ... alas, their main political strategy for the last decade or so has been to run morons for POTUS and it's not working for them. :|

The Forward Party says they are all about forming a party for independents and centrists, Joe. They want to be a party of people who, again, say they are part of the disillusioned middle tired of partisan warfare at the extremes. What you're wishing for has arrived. What a shock, you didn't even know it. :D
I’m sure there are many “parties” out there. I prefer being an independent. I don’t see a viable third party out there. It seems to be the two major parties are going to have to figure things out.
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Re: So is this why Trump buried Ivana at his golf course?

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You're an "independent" exactly the way 538 describes most American independents. (75%)

Truth be told, I have never met a person who actually is equally likely to support one or the other (main) party. Now I hate generalizing from anecdotal experience, mine or anybody else's. but those folks seem like chimeras.

Seems to me that's why the Reform Party went bust, and Yang's Forward Party won't fare much better. They're trying to put together a team of chimeras.

It's fine, I wouldn't expect otherwise. You don't encounter exceptions more often than rules. :D

Image :lol:
Last edited by ProfX on Tue Aug 16, 2022 12:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: So is this why Trump buried Ivana at his golf course?

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JoeMemphis wrote: Tue Aug 16, 2022 11:58 am I’m sure there are many “parties” out there. I prefer being an independent. I don’t see a viable third party out there. It seems to be the two major parties are going to have to figure things out.
You vote a straight ticket. That’s not independent.
JoeMemphis

Re: So is this why Trump buried Ivana at his golf course?

Post by JoeMemphis »

ProfX wrote: Tue Aug 16, 2022 12:08 pm You're an "independent" exactly the way 538 describes most American independents. (75%)

Truth be told, I have never met a person who actually is equally likely to support one or the other (main) party. Now I hate generalizing from anecdotal experience, mine or anybody else's. but those folks seem like chimeras.

Seems to me that's why the Reform Party went bust, and Yang's Forward Party won't fare much better. They're trying to put together a team of chimeras.

It's fine, I wouldn't expect otherwise. You don't encounter exceptions more often than rules. :D
I never said I was totally in the middle. I think it naive to have such an expectation. Most people who call themselves independents lean left or right. Those leaning left probably vote blue more often than not and those leaning right vote red more often than not. What it does mean that the folks in the middle are fed up with both parties to an extent and certainly cannot be counted upon to automatically donate or support certain candidates or policies.

You can dismiss independents if you choose but come election time, it’s funny how concerned both parties are with how independents are voting. Your base may deliver you in a primary but you can’t ignore the middle in general elections. Swing votes aren’t at the extremes, they most likely are in the middle.
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Re: So is this why Trump buried Ivana at his golf course?

Post by gounion »

JoeMemphis wrote: Tue Aug 16, 2022 12:19 pm I never said I was totally in the middle. I think it naive to have such an expectation. Most people who call themselves independents lean left or right. Those leaning left probably vote blue more often than not and those leaning right vote red more often than not. What it does mean that the folks in the middle are fed up with both parties to an extent and certainly cannot be counted upon to automatically donate or support certain candidates or policies.

You can dismiss independents if you choose but come election time, it’s funny how concerned both parties are with how independents are voting. Your base may deliver you in a primary but you can’t ignore the middle in general elections. Swing votes aren’t at the extremes, they most likely are in the middle.
You don't lean right - you are HARD RIGHT, and you'll NEVER vote Democrat. I note you refused to answer my question as to whether you say Obama is evil or nut. Gutless.

Both Obama and Biden were/are moderate democrats. Even against Trump, you refused to vote for the moderate Biden. YOU are at the EXTREME. I don't care if we piss you off, your vote was decided years ago. So the only reason you call yourself independent is that you don't have the smarts to defend who you vote for.
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Re: So is this why Trump buried Ivana at his golf course?

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JoeMemphis wrote: Tue Aug 16, 2022 12:19 pm What it does mean that the folks in the middle are fed up with both parties to an extent
And ... so what are you doing about it?

I mean, I may not like what Andrew Yang is doing, nor am I supporting it, but shit, Joe, at least he's doing more than just whining. :roll:

Saying the two parties need to cooperate more. OK? On what, Joe? On banning books? No, I do not want them to cooperate on that.

I need more than slogans and buzzwords. WHAT should both parties be cooperating on. Lowering Donald Trump's taxes? Putting women who have abortions in the gas chamber? Putting Hillsdale College in charge of our school curricula? Fuck that.
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Re: So is this why Trump buried Ivana at his golf course?

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JoeMemphis wrote: ↑Tue Aug 16, 2022 12:19 pm
What it does mean that the folks in the middle are fed up with both parties to an extent
Both sides. It's always fabricated both sides BS with this guy.

This guy is NOT in the middle. So why is he speaking for people in the middle? He votes for the likes of Marsha Blackburn. That's as extreme right as it gets. What a clown.

Yah sorry, but no. The Democratic Party, for the most part, is moderate, and the Democratic party did NOT attempt a coup, does NOT push militia extremists to attack other citizens and the law.
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Are the same that burn crosses"

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Re: So is this why Trump buried Ivana at his golf course?

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ProfX wrote: Tue Aug 16, 2022 2:42 pm
I mean, I may not like what Andrew Yang is doing, nor am I supporting it, but shit, Joe, at least he's doing more than just whining. :roll:
Those, big bucks rolling in from Republican donors to help split the vote certainly makes it enticing to Yang. I always felt he was full of crap and wasn't a real Dem, and just a spoiler. That's what his third party is designed for.
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Are the same that burn crosses"

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JoeMemphis

Re: So is this why Trump buried Ivana at his golf course?

Post by JoeMemphis »

ProfX wrote: Tue Aug 16, 2022 2:42 pm And ... so what are you doing about it?

I mean, I may not like what Andrew Yang is doing, nor am I supporting it, but shit, Joe, at least he's doing more than just whining. :roll:

Saying the two parties need to cooperate more. OK? On what, Joe? On banning books? No, I do not want them to cooperate on that.

I need more than slogans and buzzwords. WHAT should both parties be cooperating on. Lowering Donald Trump's taxes? Putting women who have abortions in the gas chamber? Putting Hillsdale College in charge of our school curricula? Fuck that.
Well there’s the border, crime, energy, entitlement spending, debt and deficits, etc, etc. There’s lots to work on Professor. Important things. You need more than slogans and then mention book banning,
Putting women in gas chambers, etc. Etc. Sounds like slogans to me. A little whiney on top of that. Plus a far amount of exaggeration.

Maybe you are right. Maybe there is no way for the parties to reconcile their differences and this whole thing will just fly apart.
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Re: So is this why Trump buried Ivana at his golf course?

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JoeMemphis wrote: Tue Aug 16, 2022 4:07 pm Well there’s the border, crime, energy, entitlement spending, debt and deficits, etc, etc.
That's a list of words.

What needs to be done about them?
You need more than slogans and then mention book banning,
So you're telling me it's not happening? I'm not making it up. It's happening.
https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics ... epublicans
Putting women in gas chambers,
Louisiana Moves to Charge Women Who Get Abortions With Murder
“We can’t wait on the Supreme Court,” said Republican Rep. Danny McCormick, who co-authored the legislation with a Baptist reverend
https://www.rollingstone.com/politics/p ... e-1347890/

No the law didn't pass. Yes, they keep trying to pass similar laws like it in other states. I'm not making this stuff up.

I have exaggerated nothing.
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JoeMemphis

Re: So is this why Trump buried Ivana at his golf course?

Post by JoeMemphis »

gounion wrote: Tue Aug 16, 2022 2:03 pm You don't lean right - you are HARD RIGHT, and you'll NEVER vote Democrat. I note you refused to answer my question as to whether you say Obama is evil or nut. Gutless.

Both Obama and Biden were/are moderate democrats. Even against Trump, you refused to vote for the moderate Biden. YOU are at the EXTREME. I don't care if we piss you off, your vote was decided years ago. So the only reason you call yourself independent is that you don't have the smarts to defend who you vote for.
I never said Obama was evil. I don’t know the man personally and I assume he’s a decent human being. I don’t agree with his politics.

To you politics is war. Good versus evil. You are either with us or against us. How do you get to bipartisanship if that’s where you start? No other organization would survive with leadership that had that mentality. Leadership at war with itself.

If you think that either party is going to give up and surrender, then you are naive. Unless they figure out how to work together then we will remain in gridlock. I guess if gridlock and fighting is what you expect and prefer, then you should be pleased. Some people prefer the issue rather than solutions.
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Re: So is this why Trump buried Ivana at his golf course?

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Drak wrote: Tue Aug 16, 2022 2:52 pm Those, big bucks rolling in from Republican donors to help split the vote certainly makes it enticing to Yang. I always felt he was full of crap and wasn't a real Dem, and just a spoiler. That's what his third party is designed for.
Yang pisses me off for obvious reasons.

But so does (I mean he really does, so dont misunderstand) Gates and Musk and Bezos, etal.

They have to know BY NOW, that a future with the GOP even if it is DeStupid, is certain DEATH for the corp Wall Street model.

Sure it is tempting to think all will be well when DeStupid and the GOP eliminate all regulations, all taxes on corps and the wealthy, etc and to profit in the short term before global warming kills their customers or makes them poor. But it wont go down that way. Putin or someone like him, maybe even DeSatan, will stop voting etc and take their wealth from them.

So the POINT is if you have 20 billion dollars you better spend at least a 4th of it NOW on any and all democratic races, House and Senate. Otherwise it wont be long that money will have no value.
I sigh in your general direction.
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