If You Say Abortion is Murder ... Don't you Mean It?

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If You Say Abortion is Murder ... Don't you Mean It?

Post by ProfX »

https://www.grid.news/story/politics/20 ... -abortion/

Earlier this year, Louisiana Republicans debated a deeply controversial piece of legislation: a bill to classify abortion as homicide, making anyone who had abortions murderers in the eyes of the state.

“This is a thorny political question,” Republican State Rep. Danny McCormick, the bill’s sponsor, argued to his colleagues. “But we all know that it is actually very simple. Abortion is murder, and as lawmakers, we have a responsibility to end it.”

[snip]

In the nearly 50 years since the Roe decision, the anti-abortion movement has held these competing views: the idea that “abortion is murder” and the notion that “women are victims” who should be treated with compassion.

These two fundamentally different views have slowly been on a collision course, said Jennifer Holland, author of “Tiny You: A Western History of the Anti-Abortion Movement.”

“If you’re calling something murder, and you’ve created many ways for people to imagine it as murder, it doesn’t make any legal sense for the person who pays for, or does that act, to have no legal consequences,” Holland said.

[snip]

The most famous of such groups was Operation Rescue, founded by activist Randall Terry, who frequently implored to members, “If you think abortion is murder, then act like it’s murder.” Terry believed in physically stopping abortions from taking place, and his group mounted protests and blockades outside abortion clinics. Violence against abortion clinics increased, and there were 110 cases of anti-abortion arson, firebombing or bombing between 1977 and 1988, a study in the American Journal of Obstetrics and Gynecology found. At one point, more than 2,600 protesters were arrested in Wichita, Kansas, during a “Summer of Mercy” protest against local abortion clinics.

[snip]

“It’s this very weird tension. There’s a growing rise of fetal rights, and personhood, which necessarily criminalizes women’s behavior,” said Alisa Von Hagel, abortion scholar and political science professor at the University of Wisconsin-Superior. “But in public, activists use this approach to frame the movement as a fuzzy, warm movement.”

[snip]

In addition to the Louisiana legislature’s debate, high-profile arrests of two women have brought the question to the fore. Earlier this year, 26-year-old Texan Lizelle Herrera was arrested for murder “by self-induced abortion.” The indictment said she “intentionally and knowingly cause[d] the death of an individual.” The district attorney later dropped the charges.

A similar scenario played out in Alabama in 2019, when 27-year-old Marshae Jones was charged with manslaughter after she had a miscarriage after she was shot while arguing with another woman. She was indicted, but the prosecutor in the case later dropped the charges.

[snip][end]

OK. But see, I'm a person who believes in logic.

If you say abortion is murder ... and plenty of groups say it ... then why not charge women having abortions with murder? If you believe it, do it. Shouldn't your actions follow from your claims?

If you say the fetus is a person ... then yes, an abortion is an act of murder ... why would you charge the abortionist, sue the person who drove them to the clinic, but not charge the woman?

I don't understand how you can say abortion is a crime, but then what kind of crime is it if it is something other than murder?

Should the doctors who perform the abortions be charged with murder? Should they be executed? While states seem reluctant to charge women, many WILL charge doctors. But then, are they going to be charged with murder? Shouldn't they get the death penalty? How can you say it's murder, and argue against it?

I just see no logical or ethical consistency in the so-called "pro life" movement.

Plus, BTW, this is no longer merely a philosophical debate, since this article notes there have been several women charged with murder after alleged abortions ... yes, the charges have been dropped ... no, I see no reason to believe it won't continue to happen. In a post-Dobbs, post-Roe world, anyway.
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Re: If You Say Abortion is Murder ... Don't you Mean It?

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So I was looking over the state laws that are in effect right now.

https://www.americanprogress.org/articl ... roe-world/

OK. It's a strange hodgepodge. Most say the woman obtaining the abortion can't be charged. BTW, some don't explicitly say so, (that they cannot be charged), so it kind of leaves it open. (Although admittedly not specifically dealing with if and how.)

Most will charge the abortion provider, with some form of felony, usually punishable by one to ten years. Plus fines, etc.

None will charge the doctor/provider with murder. Again, I just find this odd.

1. If you say it's murder, why not charge the doctor with murder? Maybe you don't actually believe it. Or deep down you know you might be wrong.
2, If it's not murder, then why is it a crime?

I'm seriously still boggled by question 2. If it's not murder, then why is it illegal at all?
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Re: If You Say Abortion is Murder ... Don't you Mean It?

Post by Motor City »

the incremental pause
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Re: If You Say Abortion is Murder ... Don't you Mean It?

Post by Libertas »

They will do exactly that if they get full power, super majority thru preventing elections from being certified.

Women will be executed along with doctors.
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Re: If You Say Abortion is Murder ... Don't you Mean It?

Post by ProfX »

People accuse you occasionally of hyperbole, Libertas, but ...

... in this past year, women having abortions (or miscarriages) have been charged with murder. Charges dropped for now, but ...
... murder in the first degree, at least in many states, DOES result in the death penalty ... not an exaggeration ...
... the "pro life" movement claims they don't want to prosecute women, only doctors ... I'm not sure all the legislators in the various states are listening, the ones in Louisiana didn't ... the law didn't pass, but ...
... as of right now, it's the law on the books that abortion doctors will be prosecuted. BUT: not with murder. Some could get ten years in prison and a nice felony conviction that I assume ends their ability to practice medicine. However, it is clear to me there are state legislators who will pursue taking things that far.

So in the meantime,

... I still keep asking ... am I crazy? :mrgreen: ... if it's not murder ... since nobody is getting charged with murder ... then why is it a crime? It's some kind of crime other than murder. What? :mrgreen: Can someone explain that to me, because it just doesn't make sense.
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Re: If You Say Abortion is Murder ... Don't you Mean It?

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Thanks, much of what I have done over the years is intended to be "qualified hyperbole." Get the attention of people etc.

Randi Rhodes won her case when the judge said she had a right to say exaggerated things that arent always meant to be true as a performance art etc.
To be hyperbolic.

Bushwa, Will read the decision to me once.

I had hoped my predictions would never come true, but I had a gut feeling. I got really angry here when a poster would constantly bash me for doing it, you know who I mean. Turns out NONE of it was unwarranted, none of my predictions that is.

Thinking of when that vile pig, that fucking traitor, told Chris Matthews that Women had to be punished for getting abortions. How many did he DEMAND a Woman get? Imagine having sex with him, fat asshole with a tiny dick and then he gets you pregnant and probably wouldnt even pay for it.

I have no sense of humor when it comes to this topic or him...
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Re: If You Say Abortion is Murder ... Don't you Mean It?

Post by Bludogdem »

I’d say most of the pro lifers intent is to drastically reduce abortions. They don’t seem all that interested in punishment or retribution. There going to be some hardcore types but they aren’t gaining any traction. Given the long philosophical history on abortion it’s not surprising the law stops short on murder.
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Re: If You Say Abortion is Murder ... Don't you Mean It?

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Bludogdem wrote: Tue Aug 16, 2022 8:48 pm I’d say most of the pro lifers intent is to drastically reduce abortions.
Should be focusing on promoting contraception, supporting gay marriage and relationships :D , supporting Planned Parenthood and family planning, and making Plan B widely available. (Generally speaking, it doesn't seem like they do that.)

BTW, Bill Clinton himself said, (not that this is my position, but he was the POTUS) "abortion should be safe, legal, and rare" ... why not support that position? You could make it more rare, without making it illegal.
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Re: If You Say Abortion is Murder ... Don't you Mean It?

Post by Libertas »

They aren’t pro life fuck that stop calling them pro life
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Re: If You Say Abortion is Murder ... Don't you Mean It?

Post by ProfX »

Hmmmm. It's one of those struggles where I don't support either side, but I see this one growing. :D

Evangelical Pro-Lifers Clash Over Criminalizing Abortion
Ahead of a potential ruling to overturn Roe v. Wade, Founders Ministries’ Tom Ascol and other “abolitionists” voice opposition to longstanding “incremental” approach, calling for penalties for women.
https://www.christianitytoday.com/news/ ... ade-n.html

The way Florida Southern Baptist pastor Tom Ascol sees it, there is little difference between a woman who chooses to end her pregnancy and a hit man.

Both pay someone to end a human life, his argument goes, and so both should face criminal charges. “It’s like saying if I don’t murder someone, but I just contracted a murderer to murder someone I’m not culpable,” he told Christian radio host Jeff Schreve on Tuesday.

The analogy is not uncommon—Pope Francis has made similar “hit man” comments. Ascol also believes that women who have abortions should be charged with homicide and face potential jail time. And Ascol criticizes “pro-life industry elites,” who, he says, get in the way of ending abortion in America.

Ascol, a leading candidate for president of the Southern Baptist Convention, is part of a small but growing movement of abortion abolitionists who reject the idea that abortion should be allowed if a mother’s life is endangered or in cases of rape or incest.

The movement prompted a bill, now pulled by lawmakers in Louisiana, that would have treated abortion as a homicide.

Abolitionists recently accused the National Right to Life Committee, Americans United for Life, the US Conference of Catholic Bishops and the SBC’s Ethics and Religious Liberty Commission (ERLC) of betraying the anti-abortion cause after the groups drafted an open letter opposing criminal penalties for women who have the procedure.

[snip]

Ascol, who declined a request for an interview, called for Brent Leatherwood, acting ERLC president, to be fired for signing the letter. In an article for Founders Ministries, a conservative organization headed by Ascol, the pastor laid out his conviction that abortion should be treated as a homicide, and this week he repeated his points on Twitter.

To back his claim, Ascol pointed to a resolution passed at the SBC’s 2021 annual meeting calling for abortion to be abolished and for it to be treated as murder.

The dispute between abortion foes who see themselves as abolitionists and those who call themselves “pro-life” will likely heat up if, as expected, the Supreme Court overturns Roe v. Wade in June, as rival anti-abortion groups compete over who will determine the shape of abortion limits in red states.

[snip]

The American Life League, a Catholic group founded in 1979, has long called for the abolition of abortion, focusing on training activists to oppose new Planned Parenthood clinics and publishing materials about church teaching about the sacredness of human life. Dwain Currier, the organization’s director of public policy, said that many people who oppose abortion are willing to compromise—something his group wants to change. “We need to start training people that evil is always evil,” Currier said.

[snip][end]

I don't think the "abolitionists" are going away. Nor is there a lack of willingness to try and build law from their wishes.
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Re: If You Say Abortion is Murder ... Don't you Mean It?

Post by Libertas »

My comment wasnt meant for you profx, the prolife bullshit from rightwingers is such hypocrisy.
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Re: If You Say Abortion is Murder ... Don't you Mean It?

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Hmm. There is a war going on behind the scenes, to borrow a recent metaphor, and to me it's now visible.

https://blog.equalrightsinstitute.com/a ... lped-them/

SOUTHERN BAPTIST CONVENTION 2021 RESOLUTION: “ON ABOLISHING ABORTION”

[snip]

RESOLVED, that the messengers of the SBC meeting in Nashville, Tennessee, June 15-16, 2021, do state unequivocally that abortion is murder, and we reject any position that allows for any exceptions to the legal protection of our preborn neighbors, compromises God’s holy standard of justice, or promotes any God-hating partiality, and be it further

RESOLVED, that we will not embrace an incremental approach alone to ending abortion because it challenges God’s Lordship over the heart and the conscience, and rejects His call to repent of sin completely and immediately, and be it further

RESOLVED, that we affirm that the murder of preborn children is a crime against humanity that must be punished equally under the law, and be it further

[snip][end]

Southern Baptist Convention:
14 million members
47,000 churches/congregations

I'm taking this article from somebody chastising the abolitionists for their position, but again while the incrementalists appear to have the upper hand ... I'm not sure the abolitionists will simply stop pursuing their goals.
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Re: If You Say Abortion is Murder ... Don't you Mean It?

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It's not like there aren't countries that don't do it this way.

The Country Where Having a Miscarriage Can Land You in Prison
El Salvador shows what happens when countries criminalise abortion: women end up behind bars, and sexual violence is institutionalised.
https://thewire.in/women/the-country-wh ... -in-prison

[snip]

El Salvador has some of the most draconian abortion laws on the planet. Since 1998, the procedure has been totally banned — including in cases of rape and incest, or when the mother’s life is in danger. Even having a miscarriage can land you behind bars. The charge is often “aggravated homicide,” which can carry a sentence of up to 50 years (ironic considering San Salvador is among the world’s murder capitals — you’d think the police would have enough actual homicides to deal with).

A new documentary titled En Deuda con Todas — produced by the Galician organisation Agareso — offers a striking glimpse at the war on reproductive and human rights in El Salvador. One protagonist is Teodora Vásquez, released from prison in 2018 after her 30-year sentence was commuted to ten. Her crime? “Killing” her newborn by fainting during labor. She was awaiting the arrival of an ambulance and awoke to find her baby dead.

Then there’s 26-year-old Sara Rogel, a chipper, ponytailed inmate at a prison in the Salvadoran department of Sonsonate, who is six years and four months into her own three-decade sentence for “aggravated homicide” — this one for slipping and falling in her home while pregnant. Requiring urgent medical attention, Rogel recounts how the police showed up and attempted to handcuff her before the surgeon was even done.

[snip]

There have been a few relative victories on the abortion rights front in El Salvador, as when 21-year-old Evelyn Hernández was acquitted last year of “aggravated homicide” for delivering a stillborn baby after being raped by a gang member. Granted, this was after she had spent nearly three years in prison.

[snip][end]

El Salvador is the abolitionists' utopia ... but in reality a dystopia.
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Re: If You Say Abortion is Murder ... Don't you Mean It?

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If You Say Abortion is Murder ... Don't you Mean It?

And put half the women they personally know and have knocked up on death row?
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Re: If You Say Abortion is Murder ... Don't you Mean It?

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ProfX wrote: Tue Aug 16, 2022 5:34 pm So I was looking over the state laws that are in effect right now.

https://www.americanprogress.org/articl ... roe-world/

OK. It's a strange hodgepodge. Most say the woman obtaining the abortion can't be charged. BTW, some don't explicitly say so, (that they cannot be charged), so it kind of leaves it open. (Although admittedly not specifically dealing with if and how.)

Most will charge the abortion provider, with some form of felony, usually punishable by one to ten years. Plus fines, etc.

None will charge the doctor/provider with murder. Again, I just find this odd.

1. If you say it's murder, why not charge the doctor with murder? Maybe you don't actually believe it. Or deep down you know you might be wrong.
2, If it's not murder, then why is it a crime?

I'm seriously still boggled by question 2. If it's not murder, then why is it illegal at all?
IIRC, if you're part of a robbery where someone is killed even though you didn't pull the trigger you are considered as guilty as the the person who did and will receive the same death sentence.

If you're part of a murder plot and the murder takes place then you are as guilty as the person who committed the murder and will received the same death sentence.

So most abortions consists of a doctor, a nurse, and the patient. If abortion is murder then shouldn't the nurse and the patient be just as guilty as the doctor?

The anti-abortion foes who've enacted these laws have created a nightmare for prosecutors. Should they prosecute and who do they prosecute? Will there be selective prosecutions where someone from the middle or lower income group with no political connections will be prosecuted while those with political connections will be given a pass? We know the American justice system treats the wealthy and politically connected differently from all others so why shouldn't it be different for abortions?
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Re: If You Say Abortion is Murder ... Don't you Mean It?

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What do you feel our chances are of them getting their way if neoconservative democrats and their many pacs support trumpers in the primaries to make themselves look better while supporting republicans over progressives? Seems to be a perfect storm brewing up here if you add in all the election interference and disfunction and disempowerment of the last few years. The likelihood of more conservative and trumper type candidates seems to be increasing.
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Re: If You Say Abortion is Murder ... Don't you Mean It?

Post by carmenjonze »

Motor City wrote: Wed Aug 17, 2022 1:17 am What do you feel our chances are of them getting their way if neoconservative democrats and their many pacs support trumpers in the primaries to make themselves look better while supporting republicans over progressives? Seems to be a perfect storm brewing up here if you add in all the election interference and disfunction and disempowerment of the last few years. The likelihood of more conservative and trumper type candidates seems to be increasing.
Moderates are just cons.

So are neoconservatives.

I'm not sure which neoconservative democrats you're referring to, though.
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Re: If You Say Abortion is Murder ... Don't you Mean It?

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OK, having now perused a political debate I never had any side in, I guess this is what I grok from it:

There are these people called incrementalists. They certainly want to be the front face of the anti-choice movement. They too want to abolish abortion, but they just think they need to do it slowly in steps. For that reason, they don't want to too loudly say what they really believe :D which is that abortion is murder, and they don't want to charge the women who have abortions with murder. Just because they know the backlash will be too strong.

The abolitionists (interesting name) don't want to wait on the incrementalists. They want to abolish abortion now. They would charge women with murder. They ARE trying, but they can't - so far - get anything passed that would do so. They were behind the law in Louisiana.

So, the thing is, I hate gaslighting. Don't tell me those people don't exist, or don't have the goals they have. They do.

In the meantime, the so-called "incrementalist" states that pass laws saying doctors will go to prison for a decade and lose their medical career if they perform an abortion. There are a lot of states who have laws right now on the books saying that. But they're not about punishment. :roll:

Tell me another. :roll:
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Re: If You Say Abortion is Murder ... Don't you Mean It?

Post by bird »

Abortion is never going away, period. Wealthy women will still find ways to get abortions. This is simply criminalizing poverty.
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Re: If You Say Abortion is Murder ... Don't you Mean It?

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Number6 wrote: Wed Aug 17, 2022 1:00 am So most abortions consists of a doctor, a nurse, and the patient. If abortion is murder then shouldn't the nurse and the patient be just as guilty as the doctor?
I'm curious. In the pre-1973 history of this country, was any nurse ever charged for assisting with an abortion?

See, I'm just a logical consistency guy.
1. If abortion is murder - I don't believe that, but if YOU DO - then everything you are saying follows from that. No?
2. But they say they don't want to charge the women having abortions with murder or any crime. Well, it turns out that is very politically unpopular, but ... look, if you say it .... and please don't tell me they aren't saying it.
https://www.cafepress.com/+abortion-is- ... yard-signs
3. On the other hand, they are charging doctors with a crime in several states if they perform abortions. It's usually a felony with up to a 10 year prison sentence. That isn't about punishment & retribution? On what planet? :D
4. But I'm still perplexed on this: if the crime isn't murder (I mean, after all, if it WAS, the doctors COULD get the death penalty), then what else is it they are being charged with?
The anti-abortion foes who've enacted these laws have created a nightmare for prosecutors. Should they prosecute and who do they prosecute? Will there be selective prosecutions where someone from the middle or lower income group with no political connections will be prosecuted while those with political connections will be given a pass? We know the American justice system treats the wealthy and politically connected differently from all others so why shouldn't it be different for abortions?
It does indeed look like a clusterfuck to me. The dog caught the car, and now the bumper is shredding their face.

From what I've read on the existing laws on the books - the answer is the doctor. The question is, for what crime?

"We just want to reduce abortions". OK, but then if it isn't murder, WHY? Can anybody answer that question?

BTW, in the article I posted about this, they go into quite a bit how even in El Salvador, where the anti-choice laws are far more draconian than ours, wealthy women still game the system to have abortions and avoid prosecutions, so (shock) it's mostly lower-class women who go to prison.
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Re: If You Say Abortion is Murder ... Don't you Mean It?

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bird wrote: Wed Aug 17, 2022 7:24 am Abortion is never going away, period. Wealthy women will still find ways to get abortions. This is simply criminalizing poverty.
And practicing Ob-Gyn medicine.

The laws on the books right now won't prosecute women. A few even explicitly state that. :D Some are vague on that question.

But they WILL prosecute doctors. If convicted, they will go to prison. For a felony, which I suspect means, bye medical license.

I haven't even talked about the nonsense where other parties can be sued. That's where stuff gets hilarious. In states with those laws, you could not only sue the women, the doctor, or the nurse, but anybody who "facilitated" which I guess means somebody who told the woman about the clinic, or drove her there, or gave her abortion information?
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Re: If You Say Abortion is Murder ... Don't you Mean It?

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They're back-flipping like crazy.

Arizona Senate candidate Blake Masters backpedals push for total abortion bans
https://americanindependent.com/arizona ... -election/

Prior to winning Arizona's Republican Senate nomination, racist venture capitalist Blake Masters presented himself as "unapologetically" and "100%" against abortion from the moment of conception. Since winning the nomination, he has suggested that he would support a federal ban only on abortions performed later in pregnancy.

In an interview with the Arizona Republic published on Aug. 8, Masters, who is challenging incumbent Democratic Sen. Mark Kelly in the general election, distanced himself from his previous support for a federal "personhood law," which would grant legal rights to a zygote from the moment of conception and ban virtually all abortions in the United States.

[snip]

As of Tuesday, Masters' campaign website says that he supports "a federal personhood law (ideally a Constitutional amendment) that recognizes that unborn babies are human beings that may not be killed."

Throughout the primary, he repeatedly expressed his support for a national prohibition on abortions.

[snip]

During an August 2021 appearance before the Pima County Republican Club, Masters was asked his position on "the unborn, abortion." "I'm just unapologetically and unqualifiedly pro-life," he replied. "From conception?" his questioner asked. "From conception," Masters responded. He noted, "There's going to be disagreement about this issue in America, but for me, it's very clear."

[snip]

So-called "personhood" laws grant legal rights to fertilized eggs, zygotes, embryos, and fetuses, go far beyond banning later abortions. A federal judge issued a temporary injunction blocking Arizona's 2021 personhood law on the grounds that it was too vague to enforce.

HuffPost noted that in January, Masters criticized other Republicans for not supporting a total national ban, saying, "What good is actually winning elections if you don't do what you promised to do when you get in? ... I don't think it's enough to return it to the states."

[snip][end]
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Re: If You Say Abortion is Murder ... Don't you Mean It?

Post by Libertas »

ProfX wrote: Wed Aug 17, 2022 7:18 am OK, having now perused a political debate I never had any side in, I guess this is what I grok from it:

There are these people called incrementalists. They certainly want to be the front face of the anti-choice movement. They too want to abolish abortion, but they just think they need to do it slowly in steps. For that reason, they don't want to too loudly say what they really believe :D which is that abortion is murder, and they don't want to charge the women who have abortions with murder. Just because they know the backlash will be too strong.

The abolitionists (interesting name) don't want to wait on the incrementalists. They want to abolish abortion now. They would charge women with murder. They ARE trying, but they can't - so far - get anything passed that would do so. They were behind the law in Louisiana.

So, the thing is, I hate gaslighting. Don't tell me those people don't exist, or don't have the goals they have. They do.

In the meantime, the so-called "incrementalist" states that pass laws saying doctors will go to prison for a decade and lose their medical career if they perform an abortion. There are a lot of states who have laws right now on the books saying that. But they're not about punishment. :roll:

Tell me another. :roll:
I like calling them "abolitionists" because we sure as hell should never ever use the words pro and life when referring to these no good bottom dwelling god damn fucking Confederates, as CJ calls them. Oh, and https://www.bu.edu/articles/2022/are-tr ... -fascists/ violent antidemocrats who are also violently racist...the Republican Party is in danger of becoming the party of violence, antidemocracy, and racism.

So say the experts.
Last edited by Libertas on Wed Aug 17, 2022 12:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: If You Say Abortion is Murder ... Don't you Mean It?

Post by bird »

ProfX wrote: Wed Aug 17, 2022 10:04 am They're back-flipping like crazy.

Arizona Senate candidate Blake Masters backpedals push for total abortion bans
https://americanindependent.com/arizona ... -election/

Prior to winning Arizona's Republican Senate nomination, racist venture capitalist Blake Masters presented himself as "unapologetically" and "100%" against abortion from the moment of conception. Since winning the nomination, he has suggested that he would support a federal ban only on abortions performed later in pregnancy.

In an interview with the Arizona Republic published on Aug. 8, Masters, who is challenging incumbent Democratic Sen. Mark Kelly in the general election, distanced himself from his previous support for a federal "personhood law," which would grant legal rights to a zygote from the moment of conception and ban virtually all abortions in the United States.

[snip]

As of Tuesday, Masters' campaign website says that he supports "a federal personhood law (ideally a Constitutional amendment) that recognizes that unborn babies are human beings that may not be killed."

Throughout the primary, he repeatedly expressed his support for a national prohibition on abortions.

[snip]

During an August 2021 appearance before the Pima County Republican Club, Masters was asked his position on "the unborn, abortion." "I'm just unapologetically and unqualifiedly pro-life," he replied. "From conception?" his questioner asked. "From conception," Masters responded. He noted, "There's going to be disagreement about this issue in America, but for me, it's very clear."

[snip]

So-called "personhood" laws grant legal rights to fertilized eggs, zygotes, embryos, and fetuses, go far beyond banning later abortions. A federal judge issued a temporary injunction blocking Arizona's 2021 personhood law on the grounds that it was too vague to enforce.

HuffPost noted that in January, Masters criticized other Republicans for not supporting a total national ban, saying, "What good is actually winning elections if you don't do what you promised to do when you get in? ... I don't think it's enough to return it to the states."

[snip][end]
Um, I thought that states were the correct place to criminalize medical procedures. What happened to that? Why the need for a federal law? The meth labs of democracy are best…until they aren’t.
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carmenjonze
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Re: If You Say Abortion is Murder ... Don't you Mean It?

Post by carmenjonze »

Well, these are the same geniuses who made “one drop of negro blood” the standard of unearned race-based legal and social benefits.

They actually put this trash science on birth certificates, assigned military service and made other federal determinations based on it. :problem:

Let them print the time and date stamp of when two gametes become a zygote on every birth certificate, then.

Conservatives are such stupid effing idiots.
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The way to right wrongs is to
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