If You Say Abortion is Murder ... Don't you Mean It?

[Glennfs]

translation: "I've got nothin'!"

You rarely have anything and once again you got nothing.

https://www.cornyn.senate.gov/content/n ... opposition

However I can fully understand how people who consider unborn children as cockroaches would have no problem with abortion up to the time of birth

[gounion]

You rarely have anything and once again you got nothing.

Greengrass is wrong. You’ve bet on the wrong horse. ProfX has the facts.

[ProfX]

That is not the point I was making.

A cockroach is a living thing. So is a spermatozoa. So is a cow.

We kill those things and end their lives without criminal penalty.

Is an acorn the same thing as an oak tree? It can grow into an oak tree, given the proper (often long) amount of time and conditions. But until it does, would you call it an oak tree? More important question: many communities have laws against chopping down oak trees. Should they be enforced on people who destroy acorns?

Is an egg the same thing as a chicken? Yes, it can grow into one, but ...

In the same way, I say a fetus is something in the process of becoming human over 9 months. To say a zygote is "an unborn child" is silly. I am fine with the social consensus that it's the mother's decision, largely, until viability, to bring it to term.

My position is a fetus is something in the process of developing human attributes over 9 months. What I think we have essentially decided is it is humanlike enough to have some rights once it reaches viability, which we weigh against those of the mother, though it doesn't acquire full rights until it is born.

This is why I support restrictions on abortions post-viability, as did Roe. Though I think they should be performed for medical necessity if they must, in late term.

[ProfX]

Saying "I support abortions up until the point of birth" is really swimming in bullshit. Assuming, of course, this means I support them for any reason, which I don't. However, if there is some horrible problem with the fetus which is only found in the 7th month which means after birth it will have a brief life of suffering and die 2-3 days later ... uh, I don't see the point of forcing the woman to deliver, and wait on catastrophe. Nope, that's my humanity.

I do support talking about reality, though.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Late_term ... _pregnancy

It's important to note there is no absolute consensus on gestational age of viability. That said, babies born at 26-27 weeks have a 90% survivability rate, so we tend to use that target.

Now from that article:
U.S. In 2014, the CDC reported that 1.3% of reported abortions (5,578) were performed at 21 weeks of gestation or later. (By the laws of math, this means even fewer are performed at later than 27 weeks.)

Reasons for late terminations of pregnancy include when a pregnant woman's health is at risk or when lethal fetal abnormalities have been detected.[6][7]:
(now OK, here come the exceptions)
A study from 2013 found after excluding abortion "on grounds of fetal anomaly or life endangerment", that women seeking late abortions "fit at least one of five profiles: They were raising children alone, were depressed or using illicit substances, were in conflict with a male partner or experiencing domestic violence, had trouble deciding and then had access problems, or were young and nulliparous". They concluded that "bans on abortion after 20 weeks will disproportionately affect young women and women with limited financial resources.

[snip][end]

Now we could get into a semantic argument as to whether those are medical reasons for a late abortion. I say they relate to the woman's psychological health and wellbeing.

Late term abortions are rare, and usually only done by very desperate women. So we really are talking about a kind of abortion that rarely happens.

But in any case, abortion after 26 weeks is not fully elective anywhere in the U.S. post viability. Even in those 6 states and DC. You cannot get an abortion "just because you feel like at" post viability anywhere in the U.S. The states may not explicitly ban it; but most physicians won't perform it.

Swim in that.

[Libertas]

It is like saying "I support insulin for people with diabetes, up to a point."


Did you all notice this:

Liberal/progressive posts facts with credible link, con says it isnt true, Liberal/progressive proves it again, con says it isn't true but provides zero source.

This is how we got so completely fucked, 45% of the country believes people like that when they make statements...sad.

[Number6]

“ You do know that under Roe, third-trimester/late-term abortions were only allowed for medical reasons. NOT elective. Right? ”

I’d say that’s pretty explicit. You’re swimming in bullshit.

It's pretty explicit that Bludogdem is really a Trump-humper, ultra-conservative republican who previously posted under the name greengrass and pretends he's a Democrat when in fact he's a phony and a liar.

[Libertas]

It's pretty explicit that Bludogdem is really a Trump-humper, ultra-conservative republican who previously posted under the name greengrass and pretends he's a Democrat when in fact he's a phony and a liar.

I bet he is also a small business owner who just cant help but notice how Obamacare is hurting his business.

[gounion]

What the right isn't in favor of, is letting women make their own medical decisions.

[ProfX]

It's pretty explicit that Bludogdem is really a Trump-humper, ultra-conservative republican who previously posted under the name greengrass and pretends he's a Democrat when in fact he's a phony and a liar.

Mine not to judge. I will only observe.

He says he's a Blue Dog democrat who agrees with us on most things. (OK, makes sense, I would suspect like many Blue Dogs, he would disagree with some liberal positions, but agree on most others.)

It's weird. I have never seen him post anything stating he agrees with us on anything, despite saying that he does (generally speaking).

He never takes positions on much of anything. Just attacks the positions of others.

He can be very critical of many on this board, not just me, ... Joe Manchin, on the other hand, whether I agree with all his positions or not, tends to say good things about fellow Democrats, including Joe Biden.

I've never seen BLD say anything good about Joe Biden. (Manchin has.) Who, let's be honest, is a pretty moderate centrist Democrat.

A lot of Blue Dogs in Congress (those that are left anyway) were celebrating the passage of the Inflation Reduction Act. He just attacked its flaws.

I didn't see a single Congressional Blue Dog who felt it was important to explain why Republicans were holding up the PACT Act.

And man oh man, I have never met a Blue Dog who seemed to be such an admirer of Clarence Thomas and other conservatives on the court.

Funny that. And with that, there's more bullshit from him and others to swim through.

[ProfX]

Here's some real & heartbreaking stories in this article that touch my humanity.

But I'm gonna focus on one.

Abortion In The Third Trimester: A Rare Decision Now In The Political Spotlight -- 2019
https://www.npr.org/2019/04/30/71854646 ... ion-rights

That was true for Beth Vial, a college student from Portland, Ore., who didn't learn she was pregnant until she was about 26 weeks along, in the summer of 2017. "I just [burst] out crying. I didn't believe them because I was told that wasn't a possibility for me," she said.

Vial has some health issues — including a condition that disrupts her menstrual cycles — which can make conception unlikely and a pregnancy harder to diagnose. Doctors in Portland told her she was too far along for an abortion there.

Vial was 22 at the time. She had recently ended her relationship and said she was sure she did not want to continue the pregnancy.

[snip]

Vial found a clinic in New Mexico that told her they would end her pregnancy up until 28 weeks — the beginning of the third trimester.

She scrambled, with the help of family, friends and a nonprofit that helps women pay for abortions, to pull together the fee of more than $10,000.

[snip][end]

Article doesn't belabor this, but it sounds like based on her medical condition, it could imperil both her and her child to give birth.

Now wait, according to some, she could just go to New Mexico and get an abortion anywhere up to 1 day before she gave birth! (This was 2019, before Dobbs, Roe still in effect.)

Note that if you DO get a late term abortion, it's way more expensive, more complex, long & arduous a procedure, and yes, dangerous for the mother. This is why a) few providers do them and b) it's almost impossible for just anybody "who just feels like it" to get one past 26 weeks.

As I said: fully elective abortion virtually impossible past 26 weeks. In every state and DC, too. In no state in this nation can you just hop, skip, and have an abortion "cuz you feel like it" 1 day before your due date. It is weird how some folks will let THAT bullshit just slide by. Look, only the Pope claims infallibility. I don't. I also admit when I'm wrong - despite certain others who appear incapable. I stated the legal regime of Roe incorrectly; the practical reality of it was basically what I said.

Maybe some people are full of shit.

[carmenjonze]

You rarely have anything and once again you got nothing.

https://www.cornyn.senate.gov/content/n ... opposition

His opening claim:

“Last week, a liberal group launched an intimidation campaign against six members of the Supreme Court. It posted a map online with their home addresses and encouraged protestors to take their complaints straight to the Justices' doorsteps.”

Which liberal group?

Find the name of this group and post it.

This blog post is fact-free, but I do get that it's very easy to appeal to the emotions of depraved, misogyinst, conservative men.

However I can fully understand how people who consider unborn children as cockroaches would have no problem with abortion up to the time of birth

This is a forced-birther canard you keep repeating to avoid cognitive dissonance.

You still have not produced even one person who advocates this position, or one piece of legislation, policy, or ruling that does so.

You guys claim to be smaller, limited government, yet you think the government should be in the business of forcing people to breed and carry non-viable pregancies to term, even if it kills them.

#prolife :problem:

[carmenjonze]

I bet he is also a small business owner who just cant help but notice how Obamacare is hurting his business.

aren't they all.

Like they all even hire blacks, too.

[carmenjonze]

Only a liberal mind could consider an unborn child the same as a cockroach.

It's not a "child."

Life does not begin at conception just because religious dogma invented by depraved conservative males sez it does.

Lmao when do you guys start passing laws requiring the time/date stamps of when the gametes become a zygote on people's birth certificates?

[ProfX]

Fetal personhood laws, which while none have passed, have been proposed. But here's what follows from that ... dogma. It's fine if you want to accept that your religion says human life begins at conception. It's just problematic for scientific/medical AND legal reasons to make it the law.

... will probably end up banning many forms of contraception (Plan B), fertility treatments, and many avenues of stem cell research.
... if you are pregnant with triplets, can you claim 3 dependents on your state tax form?
... are all pregnant women now allowed to use the HOV lane if no other passenger is in the car?
... will all miscarriages now become crime scene investigations? It follows, and it IS what happens in El Salvador. "Ma'am, you say it was a spontaneous miscarriage, but ... what were you drinking last night?"
... doesn't that now force us to charge everybody who strikes a pregnant woman, and her fetus in the womb dies (let's say 5 days later), with ... at least ... manslaughter? (Real interesting question: what if they didn't know the woman was pregnant?)

[carmenjonze]

Fetal personhood laws, which while none have passed, have been proposed. But here's what follows from that ... dogma. It's fine if you want to accept that your religion says human life begins at conception. It's just problematic for scientific/medical AND legal reasons to make it the law.

... will probably end up banning many forms of contraception (Plan B), fertility treatments, and many avenues of stem cell research.
... if you are pregnant with triplets, can you claim 3 dependents on your state tax form?
... are all pregnant women now allowed to use the HOV lane if no other passenger is in the car?
... will all miscarriages now become crime scene investigations? It follows, and it IS what happens in El Salvador. "Ma'am, you say it was a spontaneous miscarriage, but ... what were you drinking last night?"
... doesn't that now force everybody to strikes a pregnant woman, and her fetus in the womb dies (let's say 5 days later), with ... at least ... manslaughter?

Hey if I tell 'em I'm pregnant do me and my date get to sit in the big booth for parties of 3 or more, instead of at the counter?

[Libertas]

Hey if I tell 'em I'm pregnant do me and my date get to sit in the big booth for parties of 3 or more, instead of at the counter?

Yep, just like the carpool lane.

[ProfX]

Cool. I can just see it now. While we check the DNA of every girl playing field hockey, now we can also administer pregnancy tests to everybody waiting for a table at a restaurant.

[carmenjonze]

Cool. I can just see it now. While we check the DNA of every girl playing field hockey, now we can also administer pregnancy tests to everybody waiting for a table at a restaurant.

Don't forget the one thing these conservative perverts are really itching to do: genital checks.

Because protecting girls from predators. :problem:

[Motor City]

Don't forget the one thing these conservative perverts are really itching to do: genital checks.

Because protecting girls from predators. :problem:

They will keep coming to these conclusions until they control everything, and everyone is indebted to them and has to serve them and be enslaved and be at the mercy of their whims and self-serving prejudgments.

[Bludogdem]

That's rich, coming from you.

Show me where elective abortions are being performed past 26 weeks in any of those states or DC. Elective meaning, woman can walk in, and for any reason, have an abortion. It's not happening.

Prove me wrong.

You’re statement

“ You do know that under Roe, third-trimester/late-term abortions were only allowed for medical reasons. NOT elective. Right? ”

Says , clearly and unambiguously, that the Supreme Court ruled that third trimester abortions were prohibited unless for medical reasons. And the decision did not say that. The decision left to the states the determination of third trimester abortions.

[ProfX]

I was wrong about that. Said so. Keep up. Only the Pope claims infallibility. I'm waiting for the day you admit error. A shame you can't.

Now, let's move on. 44 states (88%) post-Roe explicitly then followed, and made post-viability abortions only for medical reasons. We agree on this. (I hope.) (Also that 88% is the overwhelming majority, because that even includes so-called "ultra lib" states like NY and CA.)

There's somebody on this thread who claims you can get an elective abortion for any reason up to 1 day before your due date. You have not taken issue with him. I know you know he's far wronger than I am (or I hope so), but ...

I still stand on my point .. even in the 6 states plus DC that don't explicitly ban non-medical third-trimester abortions, they are not fully elective, as in you can't just walk in on your 8th month of pregnancy and say "I feel like it, let's abort." I posted an article proving that point. Those third trimester abortions are rare, done mostly for medical reasons, and if not, out of pretty great desperation for the women. They found out something in the pregnancy that wasn't known until then, or ... their spouse/partner started abusing them, etc. ... Let alone 1 day before due date.

I find it weird you're more hostile to my mis-statement than to a more egregious one. But then, maybe not unexpected.

[ProfX]

Interesting fact. Many third trimester abortions occur because screening tests for fetal anomalies in the 2nd trimester failed to detect them.

The reasons for termination of pregnancy in the third trimester
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/10426234/

Conclusions:
One-third of late terminations of pregnancy could have been avoided by more efficient screening in the second trimester. However, because fetal prognosis is not always clear when a malformation is diagnosed, postponing the decision until fetal development allows more thorough evaluation and may avoid unnecessary termination of pregnancy in the second trimester. This could be the main beneficial aspect of not setting a limit to the gestational age for performing termination of pregnancy.

[snip][end]

In an ideal world, we could know all problems with a pregnancy in the 2nd trimester. That isn't the one we inhabit. It's why third trimester abortions are occasionally necessary. We could possibly reduce that with better fetal screening - something, obviously, I am not opposed to.

[carmenjonze]

There is no doubt that abortion ends a life.

Kansas recount confirms landslide win for abortion rights, but highlights risk to democracy - The Kansas City Star

Kansas reaffirmed its landslide vote to uphold abortion rights after election officials on Sunday finished a recount that never had any chance of changing the outcome but was sought by an election denier and anti-abortion activist advancing baseless allegations of fraud. The exercise instead delivered a second victory for opponents of an amendment that would have stripped abortion rights from the state constitution. But the recount of such a lopsided vote, rather than building credibility in the results, risks undermining trust in elections because the process provided fringe, diehard amendment supporters an opportunity to attempt to create an aura of uncertainty surrounding the vote when, in fact, none ever existed.

A hand recount in nine counties – including Johnson and Sedgwick, the state’s two largest – cost roughly $120,000 and burned countless hours as election officials scrambled to conclude the arduous process before a Saturday deadline. Kansas voters rejected the amendment, called Value Them Both by supporters, 59% to 41% with a margin of about 165,000 votes. The partial recount ultimately changed the outcome by fewer than 70 votes —an infinitesimal fraction of the overall vote that included ballots from more than 922,000 Kansans.

For Gietzen’s part, he previously acknowledged the recount was unlikely to change the outcome but nevertheless situated it as the start of an effort to search for fraud. He suggested he and his allies would be going door to door to confront voters. “The next step is to check the registrations of the people who they say voted,” Gietzen said. “I don’t care whether they voted yes or no, it doesn’t make any difference to me. I want to know if a human being voted. So we’ll be visiting homes to see if anyone lives there – maybe 10 out of every precinct.”

When do you forced-birth freaks start beating people for trying to register to vote?

[carmenjonze]

There is no doubt that abortion ends a life.

Your politicians and laws are pro-death.

Physicians could face abortion charge even if mother’s life is in danger - Tennessee Lookout

Florida abortion providers and advocates are not backing down when it comes to challenging Florida’s 15-week ban on most abortions, known as HB 5.

A petitioner's brief was filed before the Florida Supreme Court Friday asking it to hear their challenge to Florida’s ban on abortion after 15 weeks of pregnancy.

Plaintiffs filed suit in a district court in June claiming a violation of the state constitution, challenging the law, but that injunction was blocked. According to a press release, "the appeal to the Florida Supreme Court comes after lower courts repeatedly closed off meaningful legal avenues to block HB 5."

During a press call Friday to discuss the briefing, staff attorney with the ACLU Reproductive Freedom Project, Whitney White, says that abortion is protected as a privacy right under Florida’s constitution, and that the ban contradicts how the Florida Supreme Court has evaluated past abortion law challenges.

“For decades, the Florida Supreme Court has repeatedly held that this express privacy right protects the right to make the deeply personal decision whether to terminate a pregnancy free of government interference," said White. "Nothing in the law has changed that would warrant a departure from this longstanding history and from the existing precedents protecting abortion.”
PETITIONER'S BRIEF ON JURISDICTION

Accompanying the brief filed against the State of Florida, groups including Planned Parenthood of Southwest and Central Florida and the ACLU of Florida, are asking the state supreme court for an emergency block of the 15-week abortion ban, which went into effect July 1.

Chief Medical Officer of Planned Parenthood of Southwest and Central Florida, Dr. Robyn Schickler, says the ban has medical professionals afraid to provide appropriate care, worrying about legal repercussions, even in life-threatening circumstances.

“If it seems that she is actively having a miscarriage, maybe her cervix is dilating very early," said Schickler. "If there's cardiac activity, and it's over 15 weeks, doctors are going to be afraid to help the miscarriage happen. Which is by performing an abortion or too afraid to even offer that option to patients, which is the appropriate medical thing to do.”

#prolife

[gounion]

You rarely have anything and once again you got nothing.

https://www.cornyn.senate.gov/content/n ... opposition

However I can fully understand how people who consider unborn children as cockroaches would have no problem with abortion up to the time of birth

Did you read your link, or are you just a lying sack of shit? From your link - which is, BTW, nothing more than a campaign website, not an actual Senate site:

“This radical pro-abortion bill that Senator Schumer has set for a vote on tomorrow allows for abortions at any point during a woman's pregnancy up until the time of delivery. It does this by prohibiting states from protecting an unborn child's right to life as long as one health care provider signs off that a pregnancy would pose a risk to the woman's physical or mental health.”

So, yes, it allows for abortion at any time - as long as medical professionals attest that in their legal medical opinion, that the woman's life is in danger.

Why are you against that? So you want women to die?