Rings of Power

[Drak]

I’ve only ever gotten through half of the Silmarillion, and I’ve only ever lightly touched the appendix at the end of LOTR.

The new Amazon series is a lot of fan fiction, but I was pretty impressed with the first two episodes of Rings of Power. I didn’t have my hopes up but was pleasantly surprised. Galadriel and Elrond front as the main characters during the 2nd Age, with the setting around the rise of Sauron. Lots of made up characters and narratives, but that’s to be expected. And the production values are very impressive.

Som negative reviews complain the show is bloated but I say, no way. The Hobbit movies suffer there, but not this.







Spoiler



The man who fell from the sky, discovered by the early tribe of haflings, has got to be the Maiar, Gandalf. He doesn’t speak yet but he uses similar magics and even cradles and speaks to a fire for in the same manner as the moth in Fellowship. It also makes sense that his first experience in Middle Earth is with haflings.

Or that’s too obvious, and he’s a manifestation of Sauron.

[Drak]

Or, maybe it's one of the blue wizards.

[ProfX]

Dunno, I've seen a lot of speculation on Meteor Man, a lot of interesting guesses, I guess we will find out.

The other question is will Sauron show up in season 1 (and in what form) (and is he possibly already in the trailer or even the first two eps?)

A lot of people don't like that it has the quasi-Hobbit Harfoots in it. (They're not Hobbits yet, but WILL be later on in the Third Age.)

I can say this. I know many purists don't like the invented characters. They had to do some time condensation because after all the Second Age was a really long time and they need everybody onscreen at once. But as for the lore, well, let's be honest. We don't have very much on the Second Age in the Silmarillion so unless they're going to borrow from his son Chris (and I don't think they have the rights), they gotta fill in SOME stuff, no matter what.

As far as the people throwing shit fits because some dwarves or elves are black, well ... they can go f themselves, I just hate that.

All in all, from what I can see on the yootoob, some of the hardcore Tolkien fans are not as disappointed as they thought they would be.

There is no reason the Hobbit should have been split into three films. Unlike LotR, it's NOT three novels with two books in each novel. I love Peter Jackson, but that's WHY they had to bloat it.

[Libertas]

Figured you would like this


https://twitter.com/JohnFugelsang/statu ... HAJTQb0TuA

I can’t believe they made a Lord of the Rings prequel and didn’t call it “Better Call Sauron.”

[ProfX]

Well, look, we know the ending, no spoiler alert.

Sauron is going to give sets of rings to the dwarves, elves, and humans, then forge the One Ring to rule over them.

He has to show up. In terms of this show, the only question is when and how.

We basically are watching everything that led up to that, over 3 seasons. i.e. a "prequel".

BTW, I just never got that much into Game of Thrones, but House of the Dragon does seem ... interesting.

Even seen some commentary that some of the horrid birth scenes in the early shows are, well, commenting on present social reality.

[ProfX]

So two things I came across today:

Seems like JRR Tolkien supported Franco in Spain. At least particularly during the Spanish Civil War.
https://www.thetolkienforum.com/threads ... ain.30296/

Now this is really curious, at least in Italy, there actually was a "Hobbit society" who basically embraced both Tolkien ... and Julius Evola. This blew my mind, as Tolkien was really embraced more by the Hippie counterculture in the U.S.
https://www.fairobserver.com/region/eur ... ews-41662/

The scope of this iteration of Italy’s New Right was first demonstrated at the Campo Hobbit festival in June 1977 in Montesarchio, which was organized by Tarchi’s Youth Front and named after Tolkien’s fantasy novel “The Hobbit.” Despite the party leadership’s opposition, the festival drew over 3,000 people and imbued the younger right-wing extremists with a new feeling of strength toward a hostile society and an anachronistic neo-fascist party. Concrete political objectives were rejected and replaced by abstract values such as courage, heroism and, above all, comradeship.

For the festival organizers and attendants, Tolkien’s fantasy novels served as a metaphor for their rejection of the modern world and their longing for a future that was better than any historical allegory. They perceived themselves as the heroes of Tolkien imagined Middle-earth, fighting against all odds for the betterment of the contemporary world. As Generoso Simeone, one of the organizers, stated: “Looking to the future, let us evoke from Tolkien’s fairy tales those images that enrich our imagination … We are inhabitants of the mythical Middle-earth, also struggling with dragons, orcs, and other creatures.” To express their attachment to Tolkien’s stories, which were deeply rooted in Germanic and old English legends, the Celtic cross became the new symbol of the Youth Front.

While festivalgoers were able to purchase a variety of books written by, amongst others, Robert Brasillach, Ezra Pound, Pierre Drieu la Rochelle, Oswald Spengler and Julius Evola, the musical performances were the real attraction given that music was considered the most important and efficient form of expression in right-wing counterculture. One highlight was the performance of the right-wing alternative band Compagnia dell’Anello (Fellowship of the Ring). For the occasion of the festival, several far-right musicians, including Mario Bortoluzzi, joined forces and created the band, which was named after the first book in Tolkien’s “Lord of the Rings” trilogy.

Their most famous song, “Il domani appartiene a noi” (“Tomorrow Will Belong to Us”), was a rallying cry to fight together for freedom and a better tomorrow against the forces of “darkness” and ultimately became the hymn of the neo-fascist Youth Front.

[snip]

Given Tolkien’s sociopolitical background, Zolla’s interpretation was not too far-fetched. Tolkien was a conservative writer, whose political and social ideas were grounded in a Catholic worldview that developed in opposition to the Anglican Church. He harbored skeptical opinions of economic and technological progress, both for the risk it poses to the human soul and for the damage it causes to its environment. Tolkien rejected socialism, Nazism and American capitalism and saw history as a long defeat. However, he still had hope. He identified among Western culture a strong romantic chivalric tradition of heroism and sacrifice, which would ultimately help to “turn the ship” around.

[snip][end]

I'm bringing this up because there is this MAGAnerd freakout over the fact that RoP has black elves and dwarves in it. Some liberals are saying Tolkien would have no issue with this. I'm not so sure.

I don't think, as some scholars have claimed, he based his Orcs on the "races" of humankind. Nor was he really a supporter of Nazism or Fascism in Germany. But he definitely held some "traditionalist," reactionary views. The Scouring of the Shire (which they left out of the LotR films) is basically the Hobbits "reclaiming" the Shire from industrialization and urbanization.

Now, in saying this, am I rejecting his work and saying it's to be avoided? No more than when I pointed out that Rudyard Kipling is the source of "White Man's Burden" or was a supporter of British imperialism. But it's not something one should just ignore ... either. And count me as one of the people who is fine with Amazon adapting & reinterpreting it.

[Drak]

Tolkien was from a different time, but I’m not trying to excuse it because it’s not excusable. His description of the races of men and elves and evil men, the Easterlings, and the Corsairs of Umbar, do match racial profiles that raise the brow.

Orcs are corrupted elves. - both fantastical beings of myth. Orcs are just monsters. Some scholars read too much into it.

I’m really happy with the casting in ROP. Anyone complaining can go pound sand. These are the same MAGA racists who are upset about casting in the new Star Wars films.

[Motor City]

I like what theyve done so far

[ProfX]

Tolkien was from a different time, but I’m not trying to excuse it because it’s not excusable. His description of the races of men and elves and evil men, the Easterlings, and the Corsairs of Umbar, do match racial profiles that raise the brow.

I think he was not quite the overt bigot and racist that HP Lovecraft was. "Lovecraft Country" does a nice job exploring that, if indirectly. But yes, while they were people of their time, it can't just be ignored. That does not mean I can't acknowledge how much the Cthulhu mythos has affected modern science fiction and fantasy and horror. Or that everything Lovecraft wrote should be rejected.

We had a guy on these forums repeatedly celebrate HL Mencken. Well, OMG, some of this shit in Mencken is so overt it slaps you in the face. Nasty anti-Semitism. Doesn't mean I won't use the occasional pithy Mencken quote myself, but you can't just overlook that stuff.

Likewise, as I said, I can acknowledge Rudyard Kipling wrote some inspirational poetry, but hey, he IS the source of "white man's burden". He DID say "pale people" had the "burden" of ruling over the rest of the "dark savage" world in their colonies. Should we stop reading his poetry, no, but I just don't think it should be ignored, either.

Anyway, the freakout over the casting in the series got (IMHO) an appropriate response.

‘The Rings of Power’ Cast Condemns Racism Facing Castmates of Color: ‘We Refuse to Ignore It or Tolerate It’
https://variety.com/2022/tv/news/rings- ... 235363757/

The cast of the Amazon Prime Video series “The Lord of the Rings: The Rings of Power” released a pointed statement on Wednesday condemning “the relentless racism, threats, harassment, and abuse some of our castmates of color are being subjected to on a daily basis.” The message comes after months of epithets and smears surrounding the decision by executive producers and showrunners J.D. Payne and Patrick McKay to populate J.R.R. Tolkien’s Middle-earth — including humans, elves, dwarfs and harfoots (e.g., earlier versions of hobbits) — with actors of color.

“Tolkien created a world which, by definition, is multi-cultural,” reads the statement. “A world in which free peoples from, different races and cultures join together, in fellowship, to defeat the forces of evil. ‘Rings of Power’ reflects that. Our world has never been all white, fantasy has never been all white, Middle-earth is not all white.”

The statement also thanks fans for defending the cast, especially fans of color “who are themselves being attacked simply for existing in this fandom.”

Earlier on Wednesday, “The Lord of the Rings” stars Elijah Wood, Billy Boyd, Dominic Monaghan and Sean Astin posted to social media wearing merch that features the ears of Middle-earth creatures in various skin tones and the message “you are all welcome here” written in Elvish, the language invented by Tolkien.

[snip][end]

[ProfX]

Now, look, I'm not exactly sure how "multi-cultural" Tolkien himself was but of course, this is where I might upset the purists ... it doesn't matter. Yes, Amazon is reinterpreting his work. We really don't have a full history of the Second Age. There's nuggets in the Silmarillon and the appendix to LOTR, but there's gaps there, and the show is filling them. They're inventing characters, compressing time, making a whole bunch of creative decisions, and I'm fine with all of that. My point would be, I don't know how OK Tolkien would be with the racial casting in this show, but he's dead, and it doesn't matter ....

I'm just gonna comment on the fantasy genre as a whole, since this also applies to GoT/House of the Dragon. Fantasy is certainly heavily rooted in medieval Europe. Always has been. Just go to a Renaissance Faire. All that said, medieval Europe was never perfectly white either, unless you want to "whitewash" the Moors and others out of it. The bottom line is fantasy may use medieval Europe as a template, but they basically take most of the things they fantasized about (like dragons, and giants, and sea serpents, and magic, and undead, dwarves & elves, and magic rings & swords... ) and make them real onscreen. Plus not all fantasy uses that setting. Robert E. Howard's Conan stores were set in the Hyborian Age, 12,000 years before the present.

Bottom line, I just hate how people say "fantasy = medieval Europe" so ... apparently this means there should be no black people, no women warriors (again I guess Joan of Arc is getting stripped from history), and everybody should just talk like a Shakespeare character with lots of "forsooth" and "wherest art thou". Oh and no steampunk type tech or gunpowder. No, fantasy is a RIFF on medieval Europe, not a RECREATION of it.

Sermon over.

[Drak]

People complaining about Galadriel being a warrior might want to delve into other texts. She may have retired somewhat in the 3rd age but she fought in battles in the 1st and 2nd ages. There were also female warriors in the Middle Ages. And in myth.

[ProfX]

In myth, they're everywhere. The Greeks had the Amazons, those Wondrous Women.

So fantasy has them as well, Robert E. Howard's Red Sonja, even if her chainmail bikinis are not the smartest armor. (Hint: in melee combat, you need to protect more than your breasts.)

But they existed in reality too. Queen Boadicea. The Picts. Etc.

In short - yeah - that's a baseless freakout also.

[Drak]

I’m loving this show. The latest episode gets mediocre response but I don’t see it. I really like the dwarf story line with Elrond and the discovery of mithril. And it appears we’re finally seeing Sauron who is in the image of a corrupted disfigured elf and his dark influence starting to muster.

What appeals to me most is the lore, but I also don’t think it’s entirely fair to view each episode individually here, but as a whole. I wish it was all released at once as I think this is the type of show built for binge watching, but it makes sense from a monetary standpoint. Amazon probably doesn’t want people signing up with temporary trials just to see ROP, then leave.

Númenor better get out the surf boards.

[Drak]

I’m still seeing complaints in forums about how Galadriel is portrayed. Maybe they should read up.

Galadriel was born in the bliss of Valinor, but it was not long, in the reckoning of the Blessed Realm, before that was dimmed; and thereafter she had no peace within: For in that testing time amid the strife of the Noldor she was drawn this way and that. She was proud, strong, and selfwilled, as were all the descend- ants of Finwé save Finarfin; and like her brother Finrod, of all her kin the nearest to her heart, she had dreams of far lands and dominions that might be her own to order as she would without tutelage.

https://archive.org/details/unfinishedt ... =Galadriel

[ProfX]

** SPOILER ALERT ** ** YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED **






The finale has dropped!






Halbrand is Sauron!
The Stranger is Gandalf!
And Celebrimbor is about to make him some rings!

[Drak]

Our household had a who is Sauron contest but we all guessed Halbrand from way back. So I guess we all get a chicken dinner.