Mental Health and mass shootings

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JoeMemphis

Re: Mental Health and mass shootings

Post by JoeMemphis »

bradman wrote: Sun May 14, 2023 5:31 pm [bold] And there's the rub. Through out history, and even today, there are unjust laws.

Just ask the liberal elements of the Magna Carta. Up until then even the monied interests had no rights past what the king allowed.

Even today, some laws are morally decrepit and should be changed. To think that the SC has the last word on the matter ignores history.

(who's winning?)
And we have a process to address unjust laws. It’s called the judicial branch and we have a Constitution. But to your point, if you as an individual wants to ignore a law and accept the consequences, that’s up to you. Civil disobedience and addressing your greciances to the government is one thing. But when a city or state government ignores the law without consequence that’s another. That undermines the whole system. When government officials decide to place their individual judgement above the judgement of the legislature, that undermines the whole system. When POTUS ignores the law and his responsibilities, that undermines the whole system. So all this sanctuary city and state bullshit has undermined the ability of the federal government to do anything really difficult because the states and cities in this divided country will simply ignore the laws they don’t like and enforce the laws they do. What’s the federal government to do? They have allowed this behavior to occur and looked the other way. So if you think a federal gun law will be any different than drug laws or immigration then you are living in a fantasy. You can’t enforce such laws without the willing participation of the states. It isn’t enough to roll out the supremacy clause anymore. Nobody respects it. It means nothing. Because the Federal Government has allowed it to happen.

You want tighter gun laws. You aren’t going to get nearly what you want and if you did happen to get it passed by the Federal Government, you will not be able to enforce it locally without the states. And therein lies the rub. There will be sanctuary gun states.

Lastly, this whole gun debate isn’t going to go anywhere until
Something is done about crime and the border. That will mean rehabilitating the police and law enforcement after bitch slapping the whole profession and cratering morale. Who in their right mind wants to be a cop in that environment. It’s like being the bastard at a family reunion.

So to answer your question. Nobody is winning. Everyone is losing. We used to believe in government and now nobody trusts government. Mostly people look out for themselves.
gounion
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Re: Mental Health and mass shootings

Post by gounion »

JoeMemphis wrote: Sun May 14, 2023 7:16 pm And we have a process to address unjust laws. It’s called the judicial branch and we have a Constitution. But to your point, if you as an individual wants to ignore a law and accept the consequences, that’s up to you. Civil disobedience and addressing your greciances to the government is one thing. But when a city or state government ignores the law without consequence that’s another. That undermines the whole system. When government officials decide to place their individual judgement above the judgement of the legislature, that undermines the whole system. When POTUS ignores the law and his responsibilities, that undermines the whole system. So all this sanctuary city and state bullshit has undermined the ability of the federal government to do anything really difficult because the states and cities in this divided country will simply ignore the laws they don’t like and enforce the laws they do. What’s the federal government to do? They have allowed this behavior to occur and looked the other way. So if you think a federal gun law will be any different than drug laws or immigration then you are living in a fantasy. You can’t enforce such laws without the willing participation of the states. It isn’t enough to roll out the supremacy clause anymore. Nobody respects it. It means nothing. Because the Federal Government has allowed it to happen.

You want tighter gun laws. You aren’t going to get nearly what you want and if you did happen to get it passed by the Federal Government, you will not be able to enforce it locally without the states. And therein lies the rub. There will be sanctuary gun states.

Lastly, this whole gun debate isn’t going to go anywhere until
Something is done about crime and the border. That will mean rehabilitating the police and law enforcement after bitch slapping the whole profession and cratering morale. Who in their right mind wants to be a cop in that environment. It’s like being the bastard at a family reunion.

So to answer your question. Nobody is winning. Everyone is losing. We used to believe in government and now nobody trusts government. Mostly people look out for themselves.
Constitution? You don't give a fuck for the Constitution. You cheer when Ron DeSantis attacks the largest employer and the largest taxpayer in Florida because they spoke out against the "don't say gay" bill (which you wouldn't support if you truly supported gay rights), and violated their Constitutional Rights to Speech, Right to Contract, and Right against Takings. AND Ron is going to fleece you, the Florida taxpayer, to defend against the Disney lawsuit. Yep, YOU'RE picking up the bill, Joe.

And you cheer for him.

So don't cry "oh, the Constitution!" to us, because it's all bullshit. As is the rest of your post, which is just a truly sad attempt to deflect everything away from the folks you vote for, which just want to tear down any gun laws left in America.
JoeMemphis

Re: Mental Health and mass shootings

Post by JoeMemphis »

gounion wrote: Sun May 14, 2023 7:23 pm Constitution? You don't give a fuck for the Constitution. You cheer when Ron DeSantis attacks the largest employer and the largest taxpayer in Florida because they spoke out against the "don't say gay" bill (which you wouldn't support if you truly supported gay rights), and violated their Constitutional Rights to Speech, Right to Contract, and Right against Takings. AND Ron is going to fleece you, the Florida taxpayer, to defend against the Disney lawsuit. Yep, YOU'RE picking up the bill, Joe.

And you cheer for him.

So don't cry "oh, the Constitution!" to us, because it's all bullshit. As is the rest of your post, which is just a truly sad attempt to deflect everything away from the folks you vote for, which just want to tear down any gun laws left in America.
Who is deflecting now? Disney talking points in the gun and mental illness thread. You derail your own thread. You rebut nothing but derail your own thread. You lose again.
gounion
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Re: Mental Health and mass shootings

Post by gounion »

JoeMemphis wrote: Sun May 14, 2023 7:28 pm Who is deflecting now? Disney talking points in the gun and mental illness thread. You derail your own thread. You rebut nothing but derail your own thread. You lose again.
You tried to derail by crying about the Constitution, which you have proved you don't give a fuck for. And I did rebut you as well, as you were trying a bullshit false equivalency.
JoeMemphis

Re: Mental Health and mass shootings

Post by JoeMemphis »

gounion wrote: Sun May 14, 2023 7:42 pm You tried to derail by crying about the Constitution, which you have proved you don't give a fuck for. And I did rebut you as well, as you were trying a bullshit false equivalency.
Oh the ole tried and true worn out false equivalency argument. Used when all else fails. When you have nothing meaningful to say and can’t rebut an argument point by point on the facts. Then you whip out the false equivalency argument. Next thing will be the whole racist, sexist, homophone, etc etc etc argument.

You got nothing meaningful to say in your own thread. That’s why I was responding to other people.
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Number6
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Re: Mental Health and mass shootings

Post by Number6 »

JoeMemphis wrote: Sun May 14, 2023 2:52 pm The laws you mention for drunk driving etc are state and local laws enforced by state and local law enforcement. Much different from federal laws that aren’t popular with some state and local governments. You don’t see sanctuary cities from state and local laws.

The ability to enforce gun laws is essential to the effectiveness of gun laws. And the ability to enforce federal laws that may not be popular in local and state governments is certainly pertinent to a discussion on gun laws. If you can’t enforce gun laws, then you aren’t going to solve the problem you seek to solve.
There are many laws at both the federal and state level that aren't actively enforced. That is, the police and governments are actively looking for people who might be breaking the law. The laws on the books telling people the action(s) they taking are illegal and if caught or discovered they're engaged in you will be prosecuted. There are laws against copying copyrighted materials such as videos and music but no doubt many people do it because they know the police aren't going to come into their house for the purpose of looking for copyrighted material unless someone who has knowledge of them doing that reported it to the police.

I know you conservatives love to frighten your fellow conservatives by claiming the government is coming to take your guns when that doesn't happen unless they have a court order such as in a Red Flag law.
You may well buy back some weapons spending billions. Will that solve the problem. It’s questionable. The people who want such weapons are going to sell them back. Fines for possession get back to cooperation of state and local LE. We are back to the discussion on how we have weakened the ability to enforce Federal laws by use of “sanctuary” cities and states. So yeah. It’s part of the discussion whether we like it or not. Picking and choosing which laws to enforce will jump up and bite you in the ass every time.
Many cities have buy back programs and while small in sized it does help. After a mass shooting in Australia and one lately in Serbia, the governments asked its citizens to voluntarily turn-in these types of weapons and thousands of people did.

As for sanctuary cities and state, that isn't germane to the topic. Like I said earlier, if you want a discussion on sanctuary cities then start a different thread and talk about the issues surrounding the cities there.
When you vote left, you vote right.
bradman
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Re: Mental Health and mass shootings

Post by bradman »

JoeMemphis wrote: Sun May 14, 2023 7:16 pm And we have a process to address unjust laws. It’s called the judicial branch and we have a Constitution. But to your point, if you as an individual wants to ignore a law and accept the consequences, that’s up to you. Civil disobedience and addressing your greciances to the government is one thing. But when a city or state government ignores the law without consequence that’s another. That undermines the whole system. When government officials decide to place their individual judgement above the judgement of the legislature, that undermines the whole system. When POTUS ignores the law and his responsibilities, that undermines the whole system. So all this sanctuary city and state bullshit has undermined the ability of the federal government to do anything really difficult because the states and cities in this divided country will simply ignore the laws they don’t like and enforce the laws they do. What’s the federal government to do? They have allowed this behavior to occur and looked the other way. So if you think a federal gun law will be any different than drug laws or immigration then you are living in a fantasy. You can’t enforce such laws without the willing participation of the states. It isn’t enough to roll out the supremacy clause anymore. Nobody respects it. It means nothing. Because the Federal Government has allowed it to happen.

You want tighter gun laws. You aren’t going to get nearly what you want and if you did happen to get it passed by the Federal Government, you will not be able to enforce it locally without the states. And therein lies the rub. There will be sanctuary gun states.

Lastly, this whole gun debate isn’t going to go anywhere until
Something is done about crime and the border. That will mean rehabilitating the police and law enforcement after bitch slapping the whole profession and cratering morale. Who in their right mind wants to be a cop in that environment. It’s like being the bastard at a family reunion.

So to answer your question. Nobody is winning. Everyone is losing. We used to believe in government and now nobody trusts government. Mostly people look out for themselves.
wow. That's quite the mouth full.

[bold] The question was, who was winning the baseball game you were watching? Which would have been about the time you decided that the flame war was more interesting.
Last edited by bradman on Sun May 14, 2023 11:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.
I am not a member of any organized political party. I am a Democrat. [Will Rogers]
JoeMemphis

Re: Mental Health and mass shootings

Post by JoeMemphis »

Number6 wrote: Sun May 14, 2023 9:34 pm There are many laws at both the federal and state level that aren't actively enforced. That is, the police and governments are actively looking for people who might be breaking the law. The laws on the books telling people the action(s) they taking are illegal and if caught or discovered they're engaged in you will be prosecuted. There are laws against copying copyrighted materials such as videos and music but no doubt many people do it because they know the police aren't going to come into their house for the purpose of looking for copyrighted material unless someone who has knowledge of them doing that reported it to the police.

I know you conservatives love to frighten your fellow conservatives by claiming the government is coming to take your guns when that doesn't happen unless they have a court order such as in a Red Flag law.


Many cities have buy back programs and while small in sized it does help. After a mass shooting in Australia and one lately in Serbia, the governments asked its citizens to voluntarily turn-in these types of weapons and thousands of people did.

As for sanctuary cities and state, that isn't germane to the topic. Like I said earlier, if you want a discussion on sanctuary cities then start a different thread and talk about the issues surrounding the cities there.
I think the ability to enforce laws you seek to pass is germane. So we disagree and I don’t feel like starting another thread so I think I’ll pass on that suggestion.
bradman
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Re: Mental Health and mass shootings

Post by bradman »

oops
I am not a member of any organized political party. I am a Democrat. [Will Rogers]
JoeMemphis

Re: Mental Health and mass shootings

Post by JoeMemphis »

bradman wrote: Sun May 14, 2023 10:46 pm wow. That's quite the mouth full.

[bold] The question was, who was winning the baseball game you were watching. Which would have been about the time you decided that the flame war was more interesting.
Unfortunately Tennessee lost 10 to 0. Not a fun game to watch. On the bright side they won the other 2 games in the series.
bradman
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Re: Mental Health and mass shootings

Post by bradman »

JoeMemphis wrote: Sun May 14, 2023 11:38 pm Unfortunately Tennessee lost 10 to 0. Not a fun game to watch. On the bright side they won the other 2 games in the series.
We went for a ride. It's always fun.
I am not a member of any organized political party. I am a Democrat. [Will Rogers]
bradman
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Re: Mental Health and mass shootings

Post by bradman »

Number6 wrote: Sun May 14, 2023 9:34 pm There are many laws at both the federal and state level that aren't actively enforced. That is, the police and governments are actively looking for people who might be breaking the law. The laws on the books telling people the action(s) they taking are illegal and if caught or discovered they're engaged in you will be prosecuted. There are laws against copying copyrighted materials such as videos and music but no doubt many people do it because they know the police aren't going to come into their house for the purpose of looking for copyrighted material unless someone who has knowledge of them doing that reported it to the police.

I know you conservatives love to frighten your fellow conservatives by claiming the government is coming to take your guns when that doesn't happen unless they have a court order such as in a Red Flag law.


Many cities have buy back programs and while small in sized it does help. After a mass shooting in Australia and one lately in Serbia, the governments asked its citizens to voluntarily turn-in these types of weapons and thousands of people did.

As for sanctuary cities and state, that isn't germane to the topic. Like I said earlier, if you want a discussion on sanctuary cities then start a different thread and talk about the issues surrounding the cities there.
Topics have a way of growing their own life.

As much of a mouth full as it was....
Joe:
And therein lies the rub. There will be sanctuary gun states.
Like it or not it's a good point.
I am not a member of any organized political party. I am a Democrat. [Will Rogers]
gounion
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Re: Mental Health and mass shootings

Post by gounion »

JoeMemphis wrote: Sun May 14, 2023 8:16 pm Oh the ole tried and true worn out false equivalency argument. Used when all else fails. When you have nothing meaningful to say and can’t rebut an argument point by point on the facts. Then you whip out the false equivalency argument. Next thing will be the whole racist, sexist, homophone, etc etc etc argument.

You got nothing meaningful to say in your own thread. That’s why I was responding to other people.
You're the one that refused for almost the entire thread to add to the discussion in any way, shape or form. Then, here, when Number six offers some points, you refuse to engage with him too.

Then, you're the one that tried to defect with "but...but...but...the Constitution!" I just pointed out that you don't give a fuck for the Constitution, you support a Governor that runs roughshod over it. I can see it pisses you off when your own hypocrisy is highlighted. Tough shit.

I've pointed out that, while you guys decree "mental health" every day when there's another mass shooting, your side instead actively works to make sure that mentally ill people have an easier time obtaining weapons.

And let's be clear: You have no solutions. Every solution suggested, you refuse to even discuss. Six pointed out that smart gun laws and gun buybacks have worked in other nations, you reject it out of hand.

It's like you guys LOVE the daily massacres. It's what you hoped for. Well, you got your wish. So quit pretending this isn't what you wanted.
JoeMemphis

Re: Mental Health and mass shootings

Post by JoeMemphis »

bradman wrote: Sun May 14, 2023 11:42 pm We went for a ride. It's always fun.
Sounds like it.
JoeMemphis

Re: Mental Health and mass shootings

Post by JoeMemphis »

gounion wrote: Mon May 15, 2023 7:17 am You're the one that refused for almost the entire thread to add to the discussion in any way, shape or form. Then, here, when Number six offers some points, you refuse to engage with him too.

Then, you're the one that tried to defect with "but...but...but...the Constitution!" I just pointed out that you don't give a fuck for the Constitution, you support a Governor that runs roughshod over it. I can see it pisses you off when your own hypocrisy is highlighted. Tough shit.

I've pointed out that, while you guys decree "mental health" every day when there's another mass shooting, your side instead actively works to make sure that mentally ill people have an easier time obtaining weapons.

And let's be clear: You have no solutions. Every solution suggested, you refuse to even discuss. Six pointed out that smart gun laws and gun buybacks have worked in other nations, you reject it out of hand.

It's like you guys LOVE the daily massacres. It's what you hoped for. Well, you got your wish. So quit pretending this isn't what you wanted.
Instead of making those points you choose to derail your own thread with the BS false equivalency argument.

As for gun buybacks. I pointed out they may work to a degree but people who buy weapons these days do so for many reasons. I doubt buybacks will be as successful as people may think. Demand for weapons is high. Demand for ammunition is also high. So if you think buybacks will work in this environment then good luck.

People aren’t going to sell weapons they bought for protection in an environment where they don’t feel safe in their homes or on the streets and you can’t depend on an already over stressed and under staffed LE to respond and where the Judiciary isn’t locking up repeat offenders.
gounion
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Re: Mental Health and mass shootings

Post by gounion »

JoeMemphis wrote: Mon May 15, 2023 8:24 am Instead of making those points you choose to derail your own thread with the BS false equivalency argument.

As for gun buybacks. I pointed out they may work to a degree but people who buy weapons these days do so for many reasons. I doubt buybacks will be as successful as people may think. Demand for weapons is high. Demand for ammunition is also high. So if you think buybacks will work in this environment then good luck.

People aren’t going to sell weapons they bought for protection in an environment where they don’t feel safe in their homes or on the streets and you can’t depend on an already over stressed and under staffed LE to respond and where the Judiciary isn’t locking up repeat offenders.
So people are just buying for protection. They guy in Allen TX had eight guns with him “ for protection”. How is that working out for America?
gounion
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Re: Mental Health and mass shootings

Post by gounion »

Image
JoeMemphis

Re: Mental Health and mass shootings

Post by JoeMemphis »

gounion wrote: Mon May 15, 2023 9:03 am So people are just buying for protection. They guy in Allen TX had eight guns with him “ for protection”. How is that working out for America?
Not everybody. But a lot of people do. But the demand for weapons and ammo is high. If you think folks would be willing to sell them back then give it a shot. I’m not stopping you.
gounion
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Re: Mental Health and mass shootings

Post by gounion »

JoeMemphis wrote: Mon May 15, 2023 9:38 am Not everybody. But a lot of people do. But the demand for weapons and ammo is high. If you think folks would be willing to sell them back then give it a shot. I’m not stopping you.
Well, if you ban the weapons, they will. The law-abiding ones that don't have any criminal intent.

That way, if this guy was stopped going to the mall, he would have went to jail. But you guys think you should be able to carry an arsenal - EIGHT WEAPONS - into a mall, perfectly legal where the police can't do anything, right up till the moment they start killing.

And you think that's reasonable.
JoeMemphis

Re: Mental Health and mass shootings

Post by JoeMemphis »

gounion wrote: Mon May 15, 2023 10:47 am Well, if you ban the weapons, they will. The law-abiding ones that don't have any criminal intent.

That way, if this guy was stopped going to the mall, he would have went to jail. But you guys think you should be able to carry an arsenal - EIGHT WEAPONS - into a mall, perfectly legal where the police can't do anything, right up till the moment they start killing.

And you think that's reasonable.
Go talk to “you guys” whomever that is. I have never advocated or supported such a law.

States that don’t agree with whatever Federal law there is will just become sanctuary cities or sanctuary states. It will be just like smoking weed or being in this country illegally. No big deal. Ignoring federal laws you don’t like is all the rage these days. It’s fashionable.
gounion
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Re: Mental Health and mass shootings

Post by gounion »

JoeMemphis wrote: Mon May 15, 2023 10:52 am Go talk to “you guys” whomever that is. I have never advocated or supported such a law.

States that don’t agree with whatever Federal law there is will just become sanctuary cities or sanctuary states. It will be just like smoking weed or being in this country illegally. No big deal. Ignoring federal laws you don’t like is all the rage these days. It’s fashionable.
Again, you support those guys with your votes, both in Tennessee and in Florida. You certainly don't advocate for their repeal. You defend them.
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ZoWie
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Re: Mental Health and mass shootings

Post by ZoWie »

The title of this thread is "Mental Health and mass shootings."

Were this the school debate club, it would be handled in a standard manner. The topic would be, Resolved: That loosening of gun laws causes people with mental issues to commit more gun violence. Judges would determine who made the better case, affirmative or negative. The best debaters would win.

Something similar has happened here. However, there are no rules of debate. Therefore, both sides go for the packed sexy lead, the maximum emotional bang for the buck, the maximum appeal to the fear of being shot at the market picking up a quart of milk, or getting that phone call from the police that your kids in school are now body parts scattered across a bloody floor.

The resulting "debate," more a shouting match really, has become, in effect, Resolved: that we get rid of guns. That "solution" is more theoretical than practical, because the guns are already out there, and the people who profit from making and selling them have the most powerful lobbies and political donors in the country. Also, it would be naive not to assume that the enemies of this country haven't exploited this to destabilize this country.

I propose a reboot. Less a debate than a weighing of alternatives. How about, "How can we reduce gun violence, and the resulting social decline, in a practical manner, while preserving the intent of the rights enumerated in the Second Amendment and the guarantees of personal security inherent in the Preamble to the Constitution?"

That should keep people busy for a while.

My own contribution is that there are weapons and there are weapons. The common thinking in places like Texas and Florida seems to be that anyone should own anything. This is defective thinking, because no one really wants tactical nukes available from Amazon. Start by creating classes of weapons that the law protects or bans using military intent for a criterion.

My other contribution goes to the greater issue: where do we draw the line on money and propaganda in politics?

And, of course, it's obvious to anyone that we do need to greatly increase our attention to mental health. We have a technology that completely transforms the way people make a living every 20 years, and this causes massive alienation. How do we cope? Right now the answer is, "Barely."
"We must remember that we cannot abandon the truth and remain a free nation." --Liz Cheney, Republican, 7/21/22
JoeMemphis

Re: Mental Health and mass shootings

Post by JoeMemphis »

gounion wrote: Mon May 15, 2023 11:00 am Again, you support those guys with your votes, both in Tennessee and in Florida. You certainly don't advocate for their repeal. You defend them.
Doesn’t mean I support every policy. And I don’t defend these policies. If that’s all you got you ain’t got much. You can’t discuss the policy. You are unable to discuss the policy.
gounion
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Re: Mental Health and mass shootings

Post by gounion »

JoeMemphis wrote: Mon May 15, 2023 12:24 pm Doesn’t mean I support every policy. And I don’t defend these policies. If that’s all you got you ain’t got much. You can’t discuss the policy. You are unable to discuss the policy.
You play your passive/aggressive game, where you don't want to take ANY stance. You just want to attack any stance WE take.

But your party votes against everything you SAY you support, and you support them every time. You sure don't hold those you vote for to account, even as they vote every time against your purported stances.
JoeMemphis

Re: Mental Health and mass shootings

Post by JoeMemphis »

gounion wrote: Mon May 15, 2023 12:35 pm You play your passive/aggressive game, where you don't want to take ANY stance. You just want to attack any stance WE take.

But your party votes against everything you SAY you support, and you support them every time. You sure don't hold those you vote for to account, even as they vote every time against your purported stances.
I took a stance. I don’t have a party. Your party votes against a great many things that I support. So I do the best I can with what little I’m given as choice of candidates.
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