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PostPosted: Thu Jun 14, 2018 8:34 pm 
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I understand your point if I make a decision to take an union job. I take issue with your logic if I already have a job and 51% of my coworkers decide they want to hire a union and compel me to pay for it whether I like it or not. I should not have to leave a job to keep a third party out of my paycheck. Other people are free to do as they please. That’s freedom. Forcing me to pay for something against my will or “get another damn job” is not freedom. In fact if an employer used such language towards one of your members I doubt you would be quite so understanding. This is no different from any other benefit. I decide what benefits I allow to be deducted from my pay. Not you. Not 51% of my coworkers. It should be my choice. I do not have a problem with unions. I do have a problem being told who to associate with and I have a problem being compelled to pay for other people’s choices.

Again, a union means a bigger paycheck and better benefits. Back when I was in the shop, one of the guys was an old-line Republican. He was a big fan of Spiro Agnew. He voted Republican. But, he was a member of the union. I asked him why. He said, "I'm no idiot - I know the Union benefits me, and if they strike, I will too. I'm a working man, and I stand with working men."

AND YOU AREN'T FORCED TO DO ANYTHING. You have the right to find employment elsewhere. What you are arguing for is the right to freeload. It's that simple.
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Being free doesn’t mean you get to make personal decisions for me without my consent.

So I guess you don't believe in democracy. Because that's what unions are. You vote, and the majority rules. Leadership is elected.


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 14, 2018 8:39 pm 
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On your get a different job point. as I have said in the past if you apply and get hired at a workplace that is already union then you should have to join or at least pay dues.

However, if you are working at a place that votes to go union after you are already working there. It should be your right to say no thank you.

that is the only fair choice there is. the only or main reason you would want people to quit is so you could guarantee only union supporters were working there. Meaning no worries about ever being decertified and it would also guarantee no republicans need apply. Not unlike what has happened in other countries where to get a job you have to be a party member.

No, sorry, in this nation, unions are democratic. It's called a VOTE. Everyone votes, and everyone abides by the decision. You don't "opt out".

In a corporation, you do what they say or you quit. It's the same thing here. The company and the union negotiates a contract that has what's called a Union Security Clause. The company agrees that everyone working in the bargaining unit pays the fees or they are fired. The company willingly entered into the agreement.

You don't have to pay those fees if you don't want to. There are plenty of non-union jobs out there. Of course, they won't pay as well, or have as good of benefits, but hey, freedom is more important to you guys, right?


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 14, 2018 8:41 pm 
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the Union I belonged to our Sec treasurer was mobbed up and by shear coinisidence when he came down with terminal cancer was prosecuted and found guilty. It is almost as if he took one for the team. Today some 40 years later his son is Sec-Treasure of the exact same local. I guess he just wants to right his dad's wrongs and clean up the family name. After all leadership is elected democratically.


Teamsters Local 473 Cleveland Ohio

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 14, 2018 8:44 pm 
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the Union I belonged to our Sec treasurer was mobbed up and by shear coinisidence when he came down with terminal cancer was prosecuted and found guilty. It is almost as if he took one for the team. Today some 40 years later his son is Sec-Treasure of the exact same local. I guess he just wants to right his dad's wrongs and clean up the family name. After all leadership is elected democratically.


Teamsters Local 473 Cleveland Ohio

Not going to defend the Teamsters. Not all unions are honest. But I'm betting a higher percentage of unions are honest compared to corporations.


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 14, 2018 8:50 pm 
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Again, a union means a bigger paycheck and better benefits. Back when I was in the shop, one of the guys was an old-line Republican. He was a big fan of Spiro Agnew. He voted Republican. But, he was a member of the union. I asked him why. He said, "I'm no idiot - I know the Union benefits me, and if they strike, I will too. I'm a working man, and I stand with working men."

AND YOU AREN'T FORCED TO DO ANYTHING. You have the right to find employment elsewhere. What you are arguing for is the right to freeload. It's that simple.

So I guess you don't believe in democracy. Because that's what unions are. You vote, and the majority rules. Leadership is elected.



What I am arguing for is the right to be left alone and to make my own decisions. This isn’t government. It’s a workplace and if I have a job I like working for people I like for wages I like then I should have the right to continue that relationship without it costing me a thing. Forcing me into a situation where someone makes decisions on what benefits I am required to pay from my paycheck is not DEMOCRACY. I don’t need to put my benefits decision to a vote among my fellow employees. They don’t get to vote on whether or not I decide to buy health insurance from my employer. They don’t get to vote on whether I buy legal insurance from the company.


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 14, 2018 8:52 pm 
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What I am arguing for is the right to be left alone and to make my own decisions. This isn’t government. It’s a workplace and if I have a job I like working for people I like for wages I like then I should have the right to continue that relationship without it costing me a thing. Forcing me into a situation where someone makes decisions on what benefits I am required to pay from my paycheck is not DEMOCRACY. I don’t need to put my benefits decision to a vote among my fellow employees. They don’t get to vote on whether or not I decide to buy health insurance from my employer. They don’t get to vote on whether I buy legal insurance from the company.

It's funny - let me ask you this - what if you're working for a company, and they choose to change what you're getting paid, for instance, they decide to cut your pay. Or they decide to change your insurance. What about your freedom then?


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 14, 2018 9:01 pm 
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It's funny - let me ask you this - what if you're working for a company, and they choose to change what you're getting paid, for instance, they decide to cut your pay. Or they decide to change your insurance. What about your freedom then?


The that is between me and my employer. It’s not anybody’s business. If my fellow employees decide to hire someone to represent them, then that is their business. That is between them and the company. They may hire whomever they choose and enter into whatever fee arrangement works for them. Their decisions are not my business. I decide for me. They make their own decisions. If I decide to join with them then I make a decision and am obligated to be bound for the costs.


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 15, 2018 3:33 am 
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The that is between me and my employer. It’s not anybody’s business. If my fellow employees decide to hire someone to represent them, then that is their business. That is between them and the company. They may hire whomever they choose and enter into whatever fee arrangement works for them. Their decisions are not my business. I decide for me. They make their own decisions. If I decide to join with them then I make a decision and am obligated to be bound for the costs.

Good. Then it's settled. If your employer enters into a labor contract, then you have a decision to make. Case closed.


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 15, 2018 7:26 am 
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Good. Then it's settled. If your employer enters into a labor contract, then you have a decision to make. Case closed.


I notice that when you can’t make your point logically, you end your post with “case closed” and run away. You don’t get to decide when things are “settled” for everyone else. You have yet to explain why as an individual employee I should be fired not because of my job performance but because I refuse to join or pay dues to your organization. Yet you profess to be all about protecting my rights as an employee. All my other benefits require my consent in order to count me as a participant; even those which are fully funded by my employer. All my other benefits require my consent in order to be deducted from my pay. I do not have to be concerned that I will be terminated because I refuse to join an organization.

If what you are offering is as good as you claim then you should have no problem attracting your members voluntarily instead of forcing them to join at risk of their job.


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 15, 2018 7:51 am 
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I notice that when you can’t make your point logically, you end your post with “case closed” and run away. You don’t get to decide when things are “settled” for everyone else. You have yet to explain why as an individual employee I should be fired not because of my job performance but because I refuse to join or pay dues to your organization. Yet you profess to be all about protecting my rights as an employee. All my other benefits require my consent in order to count me as a participant; even those which are fully funded by my employer. All my other benefits require my consent in order to be deducted from my pay. I do not have to be concerned that I will be terminated because I refuse to join an organization.

If what you are offering is as good as you claim then you should have no problem attracting your members voluntarily instead of forcing them to join at risk of their job.

Joe, you've sparred with me for a long time. You know that the LAST thing I do is run away! :rw) :rw) :rw)

I just point out that your logic fails because you ALWAYS have the option of getting a new job, so you aren't FORCED to do anything. Your freedom of association fails because you don't have to join, you just have to pay for services rendered.

As far as value, I agree completely. Corporations should follow the law, and the decision as to whether to unionize should be the workers alone, without interference from the company. Labor law should be changed to reflect that, or do away with the National Labor Relations Act, and then we can go back to sit-down strikes, sympathy strikes and city-wide and nation-wide strikes. As the teachers have shown, we can win on the streets.


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 15, 2018 8:53 am 
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Joe, you've sparred with me for a long time. You know that the LAST thing I do is run away! :rw) :rw) :rw)

I just point out that your logic fails because you ALWAYS have the option of getting a new job, so you aren't FORCED to do anything. Your freedom of association fails because you don't have to join, you just have to pay for services rendered.

As far as value, I agree completely. Corporations should follow the law, and the decision as to whether to unionize should be the workers alone, without interference from the company. Labor law should be changed to reflect that, or do away with the National Labor Relations Act, and then we can go back to sit-down strikes, sympathy strikes and city-wide and nation-wide strikes. As the teachers have shown, we can win on the streets.


Sure you are forced to do something. Leaving a job I like because I refuse to join an outside organization and refuse to pay for services I neither want or need is not freedom and it is not choice. If that is your idea of protecting my rights and freedom as an employee then we have two totally different ideas of what freedom is all about. Holding my job over my head is not freedom of choice.

I remember some years ago when United Way would do fund raising drives in the workplace. You were told it was voluntary but we also knew that folks were making mental notes of who gave and how much. Your participation was “strongly” encouraged. That’s coercion in my view. You can’t say that I be judged on how I do my job in one breath and then work to have me terminated because I choose not to associate myself with your organization.


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 15, 2018 4:29 pm 
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Sure you are forced to do something. Leaving a job I like because I refuse to join an outside organization and refuse to pay for services I neither want or need is not freedom and it is not choice. If that is your idea of protecting my rights and freedom as an employee then we have two totally different ideas of what freedom is all about. Holding my job over my head is not freedom of choice.

Well, then you don't have a choice. Your job is held over your head every day. Without a Union contract, you don't have any freedom. You certainly don't have freedom of speech. Here's the thing: The company can fire you for any or no reason. Unless you have a professional contract, which I'm betting you do not. I worked union, and I worked non-union. I had FAR more freedom when I worked union. I had rights on the job. I couldn't be threatened or coerced. I could speak up about safety issues or abuse without being afraid of being fired.

So, yes, we seem to have very different ideas what freedom is about.
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I remember some years ago when United Way would do fund raising drives in the workplace. You were told it was voluntary but we also knew that folks were making mental notes of who gave and how much. Your participation was “strongly” encouraged. That’s coercion in my view. You can’t say that I be judged on how I do my job in one breath and then work to have me terminated because I choose not to associate myself with your organization.

So, what did you do? Did you speak up? Did you sue them? Or did you just shut up and rub blue mud into your belly button because you were told to?

Sorry, Joe, but you're really coming off as whiny now.

And Joe, when you work union, you don't have to do shit like that if you don't want to. You have protections. I remember what it was like the one time I worked non-union. Hell, the boss had a race car, and you were expected to be his unpaid pit crew. You were to stay after work and work on the car, then travel the weekends - on your own dime - and work the pits for him.

Needless to say, I was very happy when I got an offer at a union shop, I was only there for six months.


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 15, 2018 8:45 pm 
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Well, then you don't have a choice. Your job is held over your head every day. Without a Union contract, you don't have any freedom. You certainly don't have freedom of speech. Here's the thing: The company can fire you for any or no reason. Unless you have a professional contract, which I'm betting you do not. I worked union, and I worked non-union. I had FAR more freedom when I worked union. I had rights on the job. I couldn't be threatened or coerced. I could speak up about safety issues or abuse without being afraid of being fired.

So, yes, we seem to have very different ideas what freedom is about.

So, what did you do? Did you speak up? Did you sue them? Or did you just shut up and rub blue mud into your belly button because you were told to?

Sorry, Joe, but you're really coming off as whiny now.

And Joe, when you work union, you don't have to do shit like that if you don't want to. You have protections. I remember what it was like the one time I worked non-union. Hell, the boss had a race car, and you were expected to be his unpaid pit crew. You were to stay after work and work on the car, then travel the weekends - on your own dime - and work the pits for him.

Needless to say, I was very happy when I got an offer at a union shop, I was only there for six months.


If you were really concerned about employee rights and freedom of choice then you would not allow or condone anyone,including the union, from judging any employee on anything but how well they do their job. It isn’t anymore right for the union to use coercion than it is for the company. So your excuse that you can do it because the company can do it doesn’t make it right and it just means your tactics and values are no better than theirs.

Telling me that if I refuse to join your organization or refuse to pay dues or fees to your organization that the contract between you and my employer will cause my termination is nothing but coercion. The choice is losing my job or paying for something I do not want or need. That’s the choice. I shouldn’t be forced out of a job for that. Once again, it is not whether YOU think it is worth it to me nor is it whether 51% of my fellow employees think it is good for me, it’s what I think and believe that matters. I do not need or want your help deciding what benefits are or are not in my best interest nor do I want or need your assistance in deciding what comes out of my paycheck. None of my other benefits are mandatory. They are voluntary. Why should union membership or union dues/fees be any better. I have never liked these high pressure tactics to force people into decisions against their will.

There is a big difference in persuasion and coercion. If you can’t sell it without coercion, what does that say about your product.

To answer your question. I have never given to the United Way because I don’t like their tactics. I said so at the time.


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 15, 2018 8:57 pm 
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{chuckle}

You two are in an age old battle with either refusing to see.

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 16, 2018 4:43 am 
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If you were really concerned about employee rights and freedom of choice then you would not allow or condone anyone,including the union, from judging any employee on anything but how well they do their job. It isn’t anymore right for the union to use coercion than it is for the company. So your excuse that you can do it because the company can do it doesn’t make it right and it just means your tactics and values are no better than theirs.

Telling me that if I refuse to join your organization or refuse to pay dues or fees to your organization that the contract between you and my employer will cause my termination is nothing but coercion. The choice is losing my job or paying for something I do not want or need. That’s the choice. I shouldn’t be forced out of a job for that. Once again, it is not whether YOU think it is worth it to me nor is it whether 51% of my fellow employees think it is good for me, it’s what I think and believe that matters. I do not need or want your help deciding what benefits are or are not in my best interest nor do I want or need your assistance in deciding what comes out of my paycheck. None of my other benefits are mandatory. They are voluntary. Why should union membership or union dues/fees be any better. I have never liked these high pressure tactics to force people into decisions against their will.

There is a big difference in persuasion and coercion. If you can’t sell it without coercion, what does that say about your product.

Again, no coercion. The Union is a democratic organization. The corporation is not. The corporation is NOTHING but coercion, and that's why workers form Unions. Without them, you have no rights at all at work. You ignore this point. You say "It's me and the company" but as a worker, it is not a relationship of equals. The company has all the power, and you have none. So don't pretend that it's anything else.

As I pointed out, the HOA is a very similar organization, yet the right has no problem with them. Are you in a HOA?
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To answer your question. I have never given to the United Way because I don’t like their tactics. I said so at the time.

So I take it you quit the job and took a stand on your principles, right?


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 16, 2018 4:48 am 
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{chuckle}

You two are in an age old battle with either refusing to see.

And what else is a message board? But if you look at the thread, both Joe and glen have admitted that if you go to work at a place that is already unionized, and you have to pay fees as a condition of your employment, then they agree that it's not a problem. They've conceded that point, now they're only arguing that if the workers vote one in.

If you go to work at a company that's union, you're already sold on the union, because obviously the better pay, benefits and working conditions are part of why you accepted the job.


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 16, 2018 9:17 am 
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Again, no coercion. The Union is a democratic organization. The corporation is not. The corporation is NOTHING but coercion, and that's why workers form Unions. Without them, you have no rights at all at work. You ignore this point. You say "It's me and the company" but as a worker, it is not a relationship of equals. The company has all the power, and you have none. So don't pretend that it's anything else.

As I pointed out, the HOA is a very similar organization, yet the right has no problem with them. Are you in a HOA?

So I take it you quit the job and took a stand on your principles, right?

If I buy a house in a non-HOA neighborhood and my neighbors later elect to form an HOA am I legally obligated to abide by the rules of the new HOA?

I don't believe, based upon case law reviews, I can be forced to join an HOA unless I'm buying within the boundaries of an existing HOA.

Different situation with a union in a state that is not a right-to-work state.

That's what's so great about the culinary workers union. Their participation rate is extraordinary and they operate in a right-to-work state. If a union can to rely on the legal system to collect fees from workers there is little or no incentive for them to address the concerns of workers who are unhappy with the operation of the union.

Forced participation isn't a good way to operate an organization.

We need unions but unions need to exist without the weight of government helping them collect fees.


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 16, 2018 10:22 am 
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If I buy a house in a non-HOA neighborhood and my neighbors later elect to form an HOA am I legally obligated to abide by the rules of the new HOA?

I don't believe, based upon case law reviews, I can be forced to join an HOA unless I'm buying within the boundaries of an existing HOA.

Different situation with a union in a state that is not a right-to-work state.

That's what's so great about the culinary workers union. Their participation rate is extraordinary and they operate in a right-to-work state. If a union can to rely on the legal system to collect fees from workers there is little or no incentive for them to address the concerns of workers who are unhappy with the operation of the union.

Forced participation isn't a good way to operate an organization.

We need unions but unions need to exist without the weight of government helping them collect fees.

Ted, let's be clear: It's NOT the government. In a non-RTW state, unions and companies have the right to contract - they can negotiate and sign a contract with what's called a Union Security Clause. The government does no force such a clause onto anyone.

Tell you what, Ted, how about we have "right-to-work-out"? Where a athletic gym has to let anyone in, to use the equipment, but all dues to the gym are voluntary? Instead, gyms can make you sign long-term contracts that you can't get out of, using it or not.

Unions are the only organizations where the law forces them to represent people that don't pay dues, AND if the union doesn't represent them, they can sue the union for big bucks. Yeah, I'm more than happy to talk fairness.

As far as HOAs, it's probably state by state. And they can be a pain in the ass, and they can be unfair. But people form and join them because it keeps the value of their homes up, because they won't have a neighbor that has a trashy places that drives values down. People WANT into developments with HOAs, and they gladly pay those dues.


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 16, 2018 8:05 pm 
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Again, no coercion. The Union is a democratic organization. The corporation is not. The corporation is NOTHING but coercion, and that's why workers form Unions. Without them, you have no rights at all at work. You ignore this point. You say "It's me and the company" but as a worker, it is not a relationship of equals. The company has all the power, and you have none. So don't pretend that it's anything else.

As I pointed out, the HOA is a very similar organization, yet the right has no problem with them. Are you in a HOA?

So I take it you quit the job and took a stand on your principles, right?

Democratic organizations can use coercion. Coercion is about power. Coercion is about forcing people to make decisions they would not ordinarily make using leverage against that individual. You condemn coercion in business and then excuse coercion when practiced by you union. Coercion is coercion. If it results in the loss of a job because someone does not wish to join your organization the result is the same to the employee as the coercion from a supervisor.

I did not quit my job over the United Way. I refused to contribute. It pissed some people off but I didn’t care.


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 16, 2018 8:37 pm 
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Democratic organizations can use coercion. Coercion is about power. Coercion is about forcing people to make decisions they would not ordinarily make using leverage against that individual. You condemn coercion in business and then excuse coercion when practiced by you union. Coercion is coercion. If it results in the loss of a job because someone does not wish to join your organization the result is the same to the employee as the coercion from a supervisor.

I did not quit my job over the United Way. I refused to contribute. It pissed some people off but I didn’t care.

It's the orders from the company that you pay fees or find another job. Again, people WANT those union jobs because you have better pay, benefits and rights on the job. Without a union you have no power at all. You can't bargain with a multinational corporation, you just get crushed.

It's funny that the ONLY coercion you're concerned about is paying union fees which get you better pay, benefits and rights.


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 16, 2018 9:22 pm 
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It's the orders from the company that you pay fees or find another job. Again, people WANT those union jobs because you have better pay, benefits and rights on the job. Without a union you have no power at all. You can't bargain with a multinational corporation, you just get crushed.

It's funny that the ONLY coercion you're concerned about is paying union fees which get you better pay, benefits and rights.

I am concerned about all types of coercion. Are you?

How do you know it gets me better pay? How do you know what is important to me as an employee? You are forcing your beliefs and opinions on me.

Further, this whole requirement to defend every employee as a justification to charge fees to everyone regardless of whether they support the union arises from a negotiated contract. I find it difficult to believe that would be a company demand. I bet it comes from the union side of the negotiating table.
You would have us believe it’s the law. You have said so many times. I’m betting it’s negotiated as part of the contract as part of the “security clause” So could you clear that up for us.


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 16, 2018 9:36 pm 
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I am concerned about all types of coercion. Are you?

I don't see paying union dues as coercion at all. I've paid union dues nearly my entire adult life, and I've found it to be the best money I've ever spent! It's allowed me to have a good living, protections on the job, and above all, dignity on the job. I didn't have to put up with the dehumanizing treatment that workers today have to deal with.
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How do you know it gets me better pay? How do you know what is important to me as an employee? You are forcing your beliefs and opinions on me.

The FACT is that it gets better pay, benefits and rights. And I'm not forcing shit on you. You can walk away. There are LOTS more non-union jobs out there. Take your pick.
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Further, this whole requirement to defend every employee as a justification to charge fees to everyone regardless of whether they support the union arises from a negotiated contract. I find it difficult to believe that would be a company demand. I bet it comes from the union side of the negotiating table.

So? The company doesn't have to agree with it. They aren't forced by law to include that in the contract. Not every contract in free bargaining states have it.
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You would have us believe it’s the law. You have said so many times. I’m betting it’s negotiated as part of the contract as part of the “security clause” So could you clear that up for us.

No, the LAW is in RTW states, where the LAW bans companies and unions from negotiating such clauses. And here I thought you conservatives were for the right of contract.


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 17, 2018 9:29 am 
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I don't see paying union dues as coercion at all. I've paid union dues nearly my entire adult life, and I've found it to be the best money I've ever spent! It's allowed me to have a good living, protections on the job, and above all, dignity on the job. I didn't have to put up with the dehumanizing treatment that workers today have to deal with.

The FACT is that it gets better pay, benefits and rights. And I'm not forcing shit on you. You can walk away. There are LOTS more non-union jobs out there. Take your pick.

So? The company doesn't have to agree with it. They aren't forced by law to include that in the contract. Not every contract in free bargaining states have it.

No, the LAW is in RTW states, where the LAW bans companies and unions from negotiating such clauses. And here I thought you conservatives were for the right of contract.


The fact that YOU believe something is in my best interest is not the point. If I don’t want the service, for whatever reason, then I should not be forced or compelled or coerced to pay for the services. If you believe it’s in your best interest, great. Join and pay for the service. I’m not telling you how to vote or who to associate with or how to spend your hard earned money. I would also not favor you being terminated because you and I disagree on this matter.

So if RTW states prevent clauses that force workers from paying for services they do not wish to puchase that sounds reasonable to me. Your union has no obligation to me and vice versa. The Vegas union has demonstrated that they can be successful in a right to work state. So it can be done.


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 17, 2018 10:37 am 
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The fact that YOU believe something is in my best interest is not the point. If I don’t want the service, for whatever reason, then I should not be forced or compelled or coerced to pay for the services. If you believe it’s in your best interest, great. Join and pay for the service. I’m not telling you how to vote or who to associate with or how to spend your hard earned money. I would also not favor you being terminated because you and I disagree on this matter.

But, of course, you DO believe in the right of the company to terminate you for any reason, or no reason whatsoever... Except for THAT reason, eh?
Quote:
So if RTW states prevent clauses that force workers from paying for services they do not wish to puchase that sounds reasonable to me. Your union has no obligation to me and vice versa. The Vegas union has demonstrated that they can be successful in a right to work state. So it can be done.

Thank you for admitting you don't actually believe in the right to contract.


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 17, 2018 11:43 am 
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But, of course, you DO believe in the right of the company to terminate you for any reason, or no reason whatsoever... Except for THAT reason, eh?

Thank you for admitting you don't actually believe in the right to contract.

Oh I believe in the right to enter into a contract. I just don’t believe you should have the right to collude with the company and coerce workers who do not wish to be part of that contract to pay for it. The relationship and the contract is between you and the employer. I am not a party to that agreement unless I choose to do so. For a contract to exist between you and the individual employee there must be an offer, acceptance, and consideration. For the employee that does not want to join, you only have the offer. There certainly is no acceptance or consideration. If you need more money to cover your expenses, you need to go to the folks with whom you have a relationship instead of conspiring with the company to foist those costs on people who choose not to belong to your organization.


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