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PostPosted: Sat Sep 15, 2018 2:18 pm 
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I received a flyer in today's mail. It is from the Buckeye Institute. The flyer was all atwitter over how the Janus v AFSCME decision "protects" the rights of workers. Of course a simple google of the Buckeye Institute gives us this:

https://www.buckeyeinstitute.org

Free market bullshit.

The flyer had another website as well: workerschoose.org. This is a "project" of the Buckeye Institute. The base premise is the usual bullshit about free-market solutions.

https://www.workerschoose.org

So naturally I called the number at Buckeye Institute and left a message asking why they don't have the intellectual honesty to admit that they are simply anti-union.

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 15, 2018 2:29 pm 
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The right is spending millions to try to talk workers into leaving their unions. At the same time, workers are banding together to fight the corporations. The battle is going our way now.


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 15, 2018 4:53 pm 
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That's interesting because in the past week or so I have seen a proliferation of so-called libertarian trolls, particularly on friends' public FB posts.

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 15, 2018 5:03 pm 
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That's interesting because in the past week or so I have seen a proliferation of so-called libertarian trolls, particularly on friends' public FB posts.



Also the SAME twitter accounts known to be russian spies are at it again, sowing discord.

I wonder how many are on DU, fucking with us there.

Hard to tell a die hard progressive Bernie fan sometimes from one of them.

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 15, 2018 5:17 pm 
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Also the SAME twitter accounts known to be russian spies are at it again, sowing discord.

I wonder how many are on DU, fucking with us there.

Hard to tell a die hard progressive Bernie fan sometimes from one of them.


They are particularly prone to believing propaganda. A lot like their rightwing nutjob cousins.

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 15, 2018 5:19 pm 
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Even in my home state. The home of the D..........F.........L............

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Makes me sick.

i dunno gounion.....we maybe winning some battles but i get the feeling we are losing the war. Remember the brother in law i mention who is now the president of a small union in Duluth? He just came back from union meetings in Washington a few weeks ago. He's telling me that it's not a matter of "if" Minnesota will become a right to work state.......but...."when" it will become a right to work state.

Incentive, gounion, incentive. Most of my brothers and sisters that i talk to in my field that are pissed about paying dues is because of the lack there of. Why should they bust their ass just to watch some skate by. The want recognition. The want incentive pay.

Bitching from afar,
your comrade,
brad.

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 15, 2018 6:06 pm 
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Even in my home state. The home of the D..........F.........L............

www.youtube.com Video from : www.youtube.com


Makes me sick.

i dunno gounion.....we maybe winning some battles but i get the feeling we are losing the war. Remember the brother in law i mention who is now the president of a small union in Duluth? He just came back from union meetings in Washington a few weeks ago. He's telling me that it's not a matter of "if" Minnesota will become a right to work state.......but...."when" it will become a right to work state.

Incentive, gounion, incentive. Most of my brothers and sisters that i talk to in my field that are pissed about paying dues is because of the lack there of. Why should they bust their ass just to watch some skate by. The want recognition. The want incentive pay.

Bitching from afar,
your comrade,
brad.

Interesting that the willing dupe doesn't mention what her "principled reasons" are.

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bird's theorem-"we the people" are stupid.

"No one is so foolish as to choose war over peace. In peace sons bury their fathers, in war fathers bury their sons." - Herodotus

The new motto of the USA: Unum de multis. Out of one, many.


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 15, 2018 6:17 pm 
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Union membership is now down to about 5% of all US workers. And yet they want to complain that their wages are stagnating in a strong economy. Go fucking figure.

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 15, 2018 6:36 pm 
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Interesting that the willing dupe doesn't mention what her "principled reasons" are.


Funny, she eludes to "free speech." :roll:

Like the comment at 1:18? It's..... "Not to undermine unions." My first thought.........And you call yourself a professor. :twisted:

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 15, 2018 6:43 pm 
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Funny, she eludes to "free speech." :roll:

Like the comment at 1:18? It's..... "Not to undermine unions." My first thought.........And you call yourself a professor. :twisted:


Conservative whites do not believe in "free speech," except for "free speech" only for themselves.

Actual "free speech" and First Amendment rights makes them want to go burn down the Black parts of town.

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 15, 2018 8:33 pm 
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Even in my home state. The home of the D..........F.........L............

www.youtube.com Video from : www.youtube.com


Makes me sick.

i dunno gounion.....we maybe winning some battles but i get the feeling we are losing the war. Remember the brother in law i mention who is now the president of a small union in Duluth? He just came back from union meetings in Washington a few weeks ago. He's telling me that it's not a matter of "if" Minnesota will become a right to work state.......but...."when" it will become a right to work state.

Incentive, gounion, incentive. Most of my brothers and sisters that i talk to in my field that are pissed about paying dues is because of the lack there of. Why should they bust their ass just to watch some skate by. The want recognition. The want incentive pay.

Bitching from afar,
your comrade,
brad.

Brad,

Let's break this down. First - on the video - if she didn't want to work in a unionized environment, she could have went and worked at a university without a unionized faculty. Plenty of them out there. Yet she wanted the rights and pay that came with a union, but didn't want to PAY.

If she was a member, she would have been a member with a vote and a voice. Unions are democracy in the workplace. She's just a shill for these folks. Probably making damned good money from them to do their bidding. After winning in the Supreme Court, Mark Janus got a high-paying gimme job with a right-wing think tank, the payoff for selling out.

As to RTW, not to disagree with your brother-in-law, but did you see what happened in Missouri? Did you look at the vote? Did you look at the county-by-county breakdown?

There is a change in the movement. I believe we have reached a turning point. That's my take.

And about "incentive pay". Jeesh. I've heard this all along in my decades as part of my union and the labor movement.

If they want incentive pay, go non-union and see how that works for them. First, who decides the incentives? More importantly, who MEASURES the incentives? You going to trust the company to do that?

And let's look at one workplace where there's incentive pay, car dealer auto mechanics. In non-union areas, they work at what is called "flat-rate". The company decides how many hours a certain job will take, and they ONLY pay you that rate. If a one-hour job takes fifteen minutes, you make out like a bandit. But if it runs into troubles, or you have to troubleshoot and it takes eight hours, you still get one hours pay.

I've talked to many workers who want to unionize their shops, and it's a terrible system for the workers. For one thing, the manufacturers and dealerships continue to downgrade the hours, what paid two hours last year only pays one hour this year, that type of thing.

Plus, there's the "gravy" jobs (you're a union guy, you know this term). The ones that are easy and quick to do, and you can do in under the allotted time. Then there's the tough ones - the guys singled out transmission work as one that will always take far longer than is allotted. What happens is that the manager who decides how the jobs are assigned. They have their favorites, guys that they like, or go drinking with them, or who suck up to them. They get all the gravy work, while the others get the jobs they always run out of time on.

Me, I'd rather have a job where I don't have to brown-nose the boss all the time (glen, on the other hand, LOVES the jobs where he can get ahead by brown-nosing the boss) and I'm given a fair wage. I am very self-motivated to work at a high level of productivity. But I also don't like to rush a job, when time is required for it.

And what about slow times? When you're at work for eight hours but only get a one-hour job? Care to explain that to the wife when you get home?

One last thing - speedup. Look at the history of speedup. Also look up Taylorism.

When I first started at the plant, I wanted to be the best, and the fastest. I was young, strong at 19 years old, and I learned fast. I quickly became the one that could damned near double other people's numbers. There were a lot of guys at there in their fifties and sixties. They'd done this for forty years, but the jobs had broken down their bodies, and they weren't as fast or strong as they used to be. But what they had was the tribal knowledge - they knew the parts, they knew the tools, they knew the machines. They knew all the tricks of the trade, and since I wanted to learn, and treated them with respect, they taught me those things that made me better at my job. They pushed me to go into the Apprenticeship program to become a tool-and-die maker.

I maybe would have gotten more incentive pay than them (or not - I've never been good at brown-nosing), but did I deserve it? I believe their years of hard work, service and loyalty meant that they deserved the high pay and respect even if they weren't as fast as they used to be. I believe they still performed and important function as they were there to teach the next generation.

The wish for incentive pay, to me, is ignorant selfishness. They aren't looking past their nose. A well-managed shop will give plenty of incentive for a job well-done. A good manager finds ways to make everyone want to do a good job.

And believe me, there's a lot of incentive among craftsmen like toolmakers. They will loudly make fun of those who don't produce. I remember one guy that had just hired in, and seemed to not care. We had a crew meeting about a technical issue we were all having, and during a question period, he piped up with the dumbest question in the world. Someone said "Shut up, Joe, this is toolmaker talk!"

After that, he seemed to decide he didn't want to be made fun of, and started pulling his weight, and after a few years of really working at it, ended up become a damned good - and respected - toolmaker.

Brad, in my experience, it's far better if we all negotiated together for a better wage for all, paid in the only fair way and unbiased way that I know of - by seniority.

That's my take.


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 15, 2018 9:45 pm 
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Funny, she eludes to "free speech." :roll:

Like the comment at 1:18? It's..... "Not to undermine unions." My first thought.........And you call yourself a professor. :twisted:

Free speech. That is pulled directly from the Buckeye institute and workerschoose.org. It is bullshit but it is also unsurprising that the courts decided the way they did in Janus v AFSCME.

All of this is to destroy unions or at the very least defund the left.

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bird's theorem-"we the people" are stupid.

"No one is so foolish as to choose war over peace. In peace sons bury their fathers, in war fathers bury their sons." - Herodotus

The new motto of the USA: Unum de multis. Out of one, many.


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 15, 2018 10:15 pm 
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Free speech. That is pulled directly from the Buckeye institute and workerschoose.org. It is bullshit but it is also unsurprising that the courts decided the way they did in Janus v AFSCME.

All of this is to destroy unions or at the very least defund the left.


Free speech...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_of_association

The only other problem i seem to run into in the field and can't answer to. There are a rare few that are true conservatives and can't stand their union dues going to liberal causes. ;)

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 15, 2018 10:29 pm 
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Brad,


The wish for incentive pay, to me, is ignorant selfishness. They aren't looking past their nose.


Ouch.

It's fairly obvious you and i will never get beyond that.

Your's forever comrade,
brad

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 15, 2018 11:25 pm 
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Free speech...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_of_association

The only other problem i seem to run into in the field and can't answer to. There are a rare few that are true conservatives and can't stand their union dues going to liberal causes. ;)

When someone can tell me what a true conservative is and how today’s conservatism matches or diverges from that then perhaps further discussion can be had. Terms need to be defined. One of most critical from the right is the appropriation from civil histo-mythology of the word “freedom” or sometimes “liberty”. It is intriguing to me when I see websites like buckeyeinstitute.org where government is portrayed as oppressing. Agitprop like “the weight of the government” is thrown around.

Here, imo, is the bottom line. Despite FDR saving capitalism and capitalists (I do not speak of small business as they cannot and do not wield political influence on an appreciable scale) or rent-seekers if you will those same rent-seekers despise not being able to help themselves to whatever piece of the pie they so desire. Power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely. Rent-seekers have power and want absolute power. Thus the disengaging of the economy from its correct place as part of socio-political relations. Attempts by economic theologians to cast everything in a the light of market relations is disengenuous at best and dangerous in general. They cast jargon such as externalities as having nothing to do with “the market” when in fact they are the result of that same theology. When something violates or negates their theology they simply ignore it. So it is with the professor in the opening post. Her unwillingness in the video to discuss her underlying issues/belief structures smacks of econonimc theology detached from society and the real world.

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bird's theorem-"we the people" are stupid.

"No one is so foolish as to choose war over peace. In peace sons bury their fathers, in war fathers bury their sons." - Herodotus

The new motto of the USA: Unum de multis. Out of one, many.


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 16, 2018 12:53 am 
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When someone can tell me what a true conservative is and how today’s conservatism matches or diverges from that then perhaps further discussion can be had. Terms need to be defined. One of most critical from the right is the appropriation from civil histo-mythology of the word “freedom” or sometimes “liberty”. It is intriguing to me when I see websites like buckeyeinstitute.org where government is portrayed as oppressing. Agitprop like “the weight of the government” is thrown around.

Here, imo, is the bottom line. Despite FDR saving capitalism and capitalists (I do not speak of small business as they cannot and do not wield political influence on an appreciable scale) or rent-seekers if you will those same rent-seekers despise not being able to help themselves to whatever piece of the pie they so desire. Power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely. Rent-seekers have power and want absolute power. Thus the disengaging of the economy from its correct place as part of socio-political relations. Attempts by economic theologians to cast everything in a the light of market relations is disengenuous at best and dangerous in general. They cast jargon such as externalities as having nothing to do with “the market” when in fact they are the result of that same theology. When something violates or negates their theology they simply ignore it. So it is with the professor in the opening post. Her unwillingness in the video to discuss her underlying issues/belief structures smacks of econonimc theology detached from society and the real world.

Poetry in less than two paragraphs.

Please, don't make me look for your quote from the other day. What was it? i remember the end of it........most people hate poetry....

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 16, 2018 3:50 am 
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Ouch.

It's fairly obvious you and i will never get beyond that.

Your's forever comrade,
brad

I thought it was people you talk to, Brad. But I guess it's you instead. If you don't want to have a reasonable discussion and look at this in a logical and historical view, you're welcome to keep your closed viewpoint.


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 16, 2018 4:26 am 
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I thought it was people you talk to, Brad. But I guess it's you instead. If you don't want to have a reasonable discussion and look at this in a logical and historical view, you're welcome to keep your closed viewpoint.


And you accuse Sam of being a pompous ass.

When it comes to what i truly think.....You assume to much my friend.

Closed viewpoint my ass.

Look in the mirror.

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 16, 2018 7:24 am 
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Poetry in less than two paragraphs.

Please, don't make me look for your quote from the other day. What was it? i remember the end of it........most people hate poetry....

From the movie “The Big Short”: truth is like poetry and most people fucking hate poetry.

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bird's theorem-"we the people" are stupid.

"No one is so foolish as to choose war over peace. In peace sons bury their fathers, in war fathers bury their sons." - Herodotus

The new motto of the USA: Unum de multis. Out of one, many.


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 16, 2018 8:06 am 
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And you accuse Sam of being a pompous ass.

When it comes to what i truly think.....You assume to much my friend.

Closed viewpoint my ass.

Look in the mirror.

I don't know what game you're playing, but you are certainly playing one. Was it the old "asking for a friend" dodge? You didn't say YOU were in favor of incentive pay. You said other people were, and seemed to be asking for the justification as to why unions weren't for them.

So, I gave you a detailed explanation. Instead of having a dialogue, you cut it off with "We'll never agree", which seemed to say it's YOU that wanted incentive pay.

You could have proffered some ideas of how incentive pay could be handled fairly (but there really isn't any way - it's quite subjective). Now you go for the insults.

Oh well.


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 16, 2018 9:14 am 
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There is a change in the movement. I believe we have reached a turning point. That's my take.


Maybe I'm wrong GoU, but it seems to me, if more workers wanted the benefits of union membership, primarily the ability to bargain collectively for pay...there would be more unions for more jobs available.

So who's responsible for only 5% of American workers being union member right now? Seems to me it's disinterest by the workers. The only reason there was an emergence of unionism at the turn of the 20th century is because the workers wanted it.

We can point our gnarly fingers of blame at Repubican politicians...but if the workers wanted to organize, it seems to me they would organize. And there are plenty of people like you around to facilitate that.

So it also seems to me that if American workers are too ignorant, too gullible, too moronic, and too many of them are white christian conservatives who don't want share anything with non-white skinned people, or non-christian heathens...then they're not going to get the collective bargaining benefits of a union. But they still want to complain about how their wages are stagnating in a healthy economy.

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 16, 2018 9:48 am 
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It seems to me that most of the people that I hear that complain about union dues tend to have a narrow focus on just their situation and tend to be penny pinchers.

I dont think some of them of have ever worked non union before and seen the results when the boss has total power.


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 16, 2018 11:11 am 
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Well, I would also argue that unionization has been affected by societal-structural forces.

Mainly, that fewer and fewer people are working in centralized workplaces, like factories, where it is easier to unionize.

Work is far more decentralized now, in our post industrial economy, with workers often isolated from each other and remotely teleworking, or in service jobs like call centers.

For a variety of reasons, unionizing those kind of workers is harder.

I would also argue, of course, there have been changes to the law and regulations making it harder to unionize, and a propaganda campaign against unions being essentially criminal, corrupt, and in bed with the Mob, or maybe refusing to let conservatives or Republicans be members. :D

There is a reason public sector unionization levels are now higher. In the public sector, unions can't be busted, or organizing halted, it's against the law. Plus, there isn't an incentive structure (as in the private sector for the boss) to bust them. Public unions are more protected.

This is why, the new fork of the campaign is to get people in the private sector to hate on public sector unions for what they get, rather than thinking about why not getting the same stuff.

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 16, 2018 11:22 am 
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Maybe I'm wrong GoU, but it seems to me, if more workers wanted the benefits of union membership, primarily the ability to bargain collectively for pay...there would be more unions for more jobs available.

So who's responsible for only 5% of American workers being union member right now? Seems to me it's disinterest by the workers. The only reason there was an emergence of unionism at the turn of the 20th century is because the workers wanted it.

We can point our gnarly fingers of blame at Repubican politicians...but if the workers wanted to organize, it seems to me they would organize. And there are plenty of people like you around to facilitate that.

So it also seems to me that if American workers are too ignorant, too gullible, too moronic, and too many of them are white christian conservatives who don't want share anything with non-white skinned people, or non-christian heathens...then they're not going to get the collective bargaining benefits of a union. But they still want to complain about how their wages are stagnating in a healthy economy.

Ike, I can understand why you feel that way, since you don't know what happens when workers try to unionize. Workers undergo threats, fear tactics, disinformation and firings in a quite sophisticated campaign by companies bent on keeping unions out.

Here's one website that explains the strategies and tactics. There are others. I can give you my assurance that this site is completely truthful, and the scorched-earth tactics aren't the exception, they are the rule, done almost every time.

That's the reason there aren't more places unionized.


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 16, 2018 11:41 am 
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Average Americans brainwashed to be anti union, is part of it, but as our expert says there is also a vicious campaign against them.

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