Ethical Dilemma

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mcslain
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Ethical Dilemma

Post by mcslain »

I started a new job a week and half ago. It is an MSP that provides support and services to schools and small businesses. It seemed like a place where my eclectic knowledge could be put to use. I am getting older and my ability to land jobs seems to be harder, so finding this place was pretty lucky. They have ten employees including me. It is family owned with the owner, his wife, and his son clearly in charge. I signed a standard non compete when I started. The first week went by without a hitch, the start of the second week started, last Wednesday, began a trip into a world where I do not feel comfortable. I went into the office of the owner's son and he has a autographed picture of Trump shaking Reagan's hand. On the other wall is a gun that with a laser engraved stock celebrating Trump. On a another wall is a rebel flag that says the second amendment protects the first.

On Thursday, the son came in and was yelling at TV, which was playing Fox and was before the Senate hearing started. Once the hearing started it only grew worse. The main sales Rep joined the son and also screamed at the TV.

I went home Thursday worried. I began to doubt myself and wondering if I can work in this environment.

Friday was better, very little TV, much like a typical day at a small company.

Over the weekend, I started to be critical of my approach and my attitude. I felt that I needed to grow up and do the work. Work is hard to find so shut up, eyes forward, work.

I was added to the company group text, without being asked, which is mostly fine although asking would have been considerate. Most of the texts were work related, but a few last week were political. I would ignore posts on Facebook or hide them, but now I have a company thread that I compelled to read due to its company nature. Today's political post included a supposed picture of Dr. Ford as a teenager with the caption that it is proof that Kavanaugh could not have done what he is accused to have done as she was not pretty enough. (paraphrase). Nothing quite says take care of a technical issue like a joke about rape.

The company technically sound, and I not only fit but feel I could learn but I honestly feel that on the end I will not fit. My wife feels that I should say to quit with the posts but I feel that will just hasten my demise and out me as trouble. I truly feel like just going in tomorrow and resigning without notice. I also feel that I should keep the texts as proof of a hostile work place in case they feel like enforcing the non compete. I do regret that I don't want to work there but I feel ethically inclined to be honest and just resign.

Need some honest opinions.

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carmenjonze
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Re: Ethical Dilemma

Post by carmenjonze »

If it were me, I'd give notice on Friday, if you can make it that far. I'm guessing you're not Black because I would never be hired on at a place that freely allows Confederate flags. I'd say, not even two weeks in and you're already uncomfortable -- I don't see how that can work.

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rainwater
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Re: Ethical Dilemma

Post by rainwater »

this sounds like it could grow into a very hostile environment and why was there an opening, who left
for the same or similar reasons.
sometimes humans like these enjoy this dynamic of being in charge and also hostile towards the FNG.

im sorry you would normally like this and hope you can find something more suitable for You.
i agree to keeping all comms from these people. for sure.

ill also say most of the time giving no notice and walking out feels good.
im sure you wouldnt be alone in taking that action. the decision is do you go in and leave or just not go in.

going in and walking out can be a hoot. fwiw. it might set your head straight again too.
Who are these..flag-sucking halfwits fleeced fooled by stupid little rich kids, They speak
for all that is cruel stupid, They are racists hate mongers I piss down the throats of
these Nazis Im too old to worry whether they like it, Fuck them.
HST.

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Number6
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Re: Ethical Dilemma

Post by Number6 »

mcslain » Mon Oct 01, 2018 8:15 pm wrote:I started a new job a week and half ago. It is an MSP that provides support and services to schools and small businesses. It seemed like a place where my eclectic knowledge could be put to use. I am getting older and my ability to land jobs seems to be harder, so finding this place was pretty lucky. They have ten employees including me. It is family owned with the owner, his wife, and his son clearly in charge. I signed a standard non compete when I started. The first week went by without a hitch, the start of the second week started, last Wednesday, began a trip into a world where I do not feel comfortable. I went into the office of the owner's son and he has a autographed picture of Trump shaking Reagan's hand. On the other wall is a gun that with a laser engraved stock celebrating Trump. On a another wall is a rebel flag that says the second amendment protects the first.

On Thursday, the son came in and was yelling at TV, which was playing Fox and was before the Senate hearing started. Once the hearing started it only grew worse. The main sales Rep joined the son and also screamed at the TV.

I went home Thursday worried. I began to doubt myself and wondering if I can work in this environment.

Friday was better, very little TV, much like a typical day at a small company.

Over the weekend, I started to be critical of my approach and my attitude. I felt that I needed to grow up and do the work. Work is hard to find so shut up, eyes forward, work.

I was added to the company group text, without being asked, which is mostly fine although asking would have been considerate. Most of the texts were work related, but a few last week were political. I would ignore posts on Facebook or hide them, but now I have a company thread that I compelled to read due to its company nature. Today's political post included a supposed picture of Dr. Ford as a teenager with the caption that it is proof that Kavanaugh could not have done what he is accused to have done as she was not pretty enough. (paraphrase). Nothing quite says take care of a technical issue like a joke about rape.

The company technically sound, and I not only fit but feel I could learn but I honestly feel that on the end I will not fit. My wife feels that I should say to quit with the posts but I feel that will just hasten my demise and out me as trouble. I truly feel like just going in tomorrow and resigning without notice. I also feel that I should keep the texts as proof of a hostile work place in case they feel like enforcing the non compete. I do regret that I don't want to work there but I feel ethically inclined to be honest and just resign.

Need some honest opinions.
You're in a situation that will only get worse for you whether or not you say something to the owners. I'd recommend you do the following:
1. Print, at home if possible, copies of all the emails and such that make you uncomfortable.
2. Request a time to talk whomever you report to, if it's not the owner's son, and explain how his unprofessional behavior is making you feel. Ask that he/she speak to the owner's son. If you report to the owner's son then you'll have to talk to him directly, but in an adult, professional manner concentrating on facts, not emotions.
3. If there is no change in behavior, then go directly to the owner and express your concerns. Again, in an adult and professional manner.
4. If that fails, contact an employment lawyer to see if there is anything legal you can do such as getting out of the non-compete contract or as a last effort suing them for creating a hostile work environment.
5. Most importantly, document everything. Names, dates, times, places, who said what, who else was present and saw/heard what took place. Even get the names and addresses of the former employees, if you can, and contact them to see why they left. Their experiences there may strengthen your case against the company. The more documentation of the events the better you'll stand if they try to fire you or you sue them.
6. Quietly start looking for a new job because as a family owned business the owner most likely knows about his son's behavior and through his action/inaction is encouraging the bad behavior. You may not get a recommendation from them but I'm sure similar businesses in the local area will know about them and understand.

Working in a business where the environment is hostile will affect your physical and mental health. You may have to suck it up for awhile but if you can find a new job where the work environment is is friendlier, professional, and non-hostile that would be the best way to go even if it's for less pay.
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Re: Ethical Dilemma

Post by ted »

I would recommend having an honest, potentially uncomfortable, discussion with the owners about your political views. Ask them if they are willing to have a group text that is only for work.

If they aren't willing to respect you because your politics are not in line with theirs then it's time to request a waiver from the non-compete and move on.

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mcslain
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Re: Ethical Dilemma

Post by mcslain »

I thank you all for the words of wisdom.

I resigned today. I told the owner exactly why, and he did not seem surprised as he was aware of the texts from last night. I told him it would be best if he did not enforce the non compete, he agreed , but we will see. I have made copied of the texts and archived them on iCloud.

Carmen, I would hope that you know me well enough from my posts to realize that I would not have taken the job if I saw the Rebel flag, to be honest I am ashamed that I didn't walk out for that reason alone. And it is probably was because I am white.

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mcslain
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Re: Ethical Dilemma

Post by mcslain »

Ted,

It was the most uncomfortable conversation I have had in 50+ years. I was honest, and I said exactly why.

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Re: Ethical Dilemma

Post by ted »

mcslain » Tue Oct 02, 2018 8:47 am wrote:Ted,

It was the most uncomfortable conversation I have had in 50+ years. I was honest, and I said exactly why.
I respect you tremendously for what you did. Difficult decision for sure.

Hope you find gainful employment very soon.

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Re: Ethical Dilemma

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mcslain » Tue Oct 02, 2018 6:46 am wrote:I thank you all for the words of wisdom.

I resigned today. I told the owner exactly why, and he did not seem surprised as he was aware of the texts from last night. I told him it would be best if he did not enforce the non compete, he agreed , but we will see. I have made copied of the texts and archived them on iCloud.

Carmen, I would hope that you know me well enough from my posts to realize that I would not have taken the job if I saw the Rebel flag, to be honest I am ashamed that I didn't walk out for that reason alone. And it is probably was because I am white.
How you leave a job is just as important as how you enter into the job. If you "burn your bridges" as you leave then it will get around to other potential employers. If you leave on a good note, which sounds like what you did, the chances of them bad mouthing you to others is greatly reduced.

The decision you made was a hard one and one only you could make. I hope you find a new job with and employer who has a better work environment.
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Re: Ethical Dilemma

Post by Libertas »

filthy fucking cons

That a decent person had to decide between making a living and working for filthy fucking cons makes me angry.
Excuse me while I use a BROAD BRUSH to say anyone who spends one minute defending anything rump is just as guilty as he is of all his crimes

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Re: Ethical Dilemma

Post by glenfs »

Sound advise from all.......if you live on planet delusional.

What you do is put on your big boy pantees, man up and work there while you look for another job. Your first responsibility is to provide for your family. I would shovel shit before I would go without a job.

As for the non-compete clause, that clause is pretty much nothing and primarily would only apply if you were in sales and attempted to take their clients to another company or opened a competing firm.

The best time to look for and find a job is when you have a job. So keep your chin covered and put up with the few hours or perhaps minutes a day you have to listen to or see things you don't like. Because once again your first and only responsibility is to provide for your family.
"my choice is for people like you to be deported -Ike Bana 5/13/18

"within weeks of being rid of the likes of you, rid of every fucking one of you,we would begin to see what kind of country this ought to be" Ike Bana 6/14/18

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Re: Ethical Dilemma

Post by carmenjonze »

Illiterate Resident Nationalist sez
glenfs » Wed Oct 24, 2018 5:13 pm wrote:Sound advise from all.......
I know it's only been a generation and a half since Civil Rights became the law of the land but at some point, you noose-knotters are going to figure out that nobody is afraid of your stupid cop-calling, bomb-mailing tactics, and nobody is legally bound to absorb any of your community's violence.

For you, the sooner you finally realize this, the easier it will be for you.

Now, go turn on the television and watch as your peers shriek "lock her up!!!!!!" at a person who was sent a bomb today, likely by one of you.

Stop calling the cops on us.

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Re: Ethical Dilemma

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glenfs » Wed Oct 24, 2018 7:13 pm wrote:Sound advise from all.......if you live on planet delusional....
As for the non-compete clause, that clause is pretty much nothing and primarily would only apply if you were in sales and attempted to take their clients to another company or opened a competing firm. ...
Do not take legal advice from somebody with no apparent credentials on an anonomyous message board. If it that is not accurate, you could potentially face significant costs defending yourself....or maybe not.

Get advise from someone competent who know your situation.

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Re: Ethical Dilemma

Post by ProfessorX »

I would say MBs are great places to ask for advice and assistance, at least informally on small matters. It's like asking your friends at the local pub, kinda.

If you need critically important advice, legal, medical, psychiatric, or otherwise, obviously, I would suggest going to a paid professional with a known name, certain expertise, and observable license.

Critical meaning following bad advice could lead to a seriously unfortunate outcome.

BTW, I know far from everything :mrgreen: , and had nothing good I could really offer to the OP's question. I understood the dilemma, but it touches on HR matters I don't know much about. Generally, or the specific situation of the un-named company.
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Re: Ethical Dilemma

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glenfs » Wed Oct 24, 2018 5:13 pm wrote:Sound advise from all.......if you live on planet delusional.

What you do is put on your big boy pantees, man up and work there while you look for another job. Your first responsibility is to provide for your family. I would shovel shit before I would go without a job.

As for the non-compete clause, that clause is pretty much nothing and primarily would only apply if you were in sales and attempted to take their clients to another company or opened a competing firm.

The best time to look for and find a job is when you have a job. So keep your chin covered and put up with the few hours or perhaps minutes a day you have to listen to or see things you don't like. Because once again your first and only responsibility is to provide for your family.
Your post proves to me you've had no professional management or supervisory training.
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Re: Ethical Dilemma

Post by carmenjonze »

Number6 » Thu Oct 25, 2018 7:57 pm wrote: Your post proves to me you've had no professional management or supervisory training.
And he thinks everyone has a family structure like his. Or the one he claims to have/whatever.

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Re: Ethical Dilemma

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carmenjonze » Thu Oct 25, 2018 8:39 pm wrote:
And he thinks everyone has a family structure like his. Or the one he claims to have/whatever.
What he doesn't understand is you have to treat the person as an individual and not as someone whose problems you work out through a flowchart or checklist. A good manager or supervisor will take the time to get to know the individual's needs, wants, expectations, etc. and that takes time and effort which people like glen wouldn't or couldn't do because they don't see/treat the person as an individual. It's easier for them to use canned solutions to problems which is why a lot of managers and supervisors fail their employees.
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Re: Ethical Dilemma

Post by carmenjonze »

Number6 » Thu Oct 25, 2018 9:01 pm wrote: What he doesn't understand is you have to treat the person as an individual and not as someone whose problems you work out through a flowchart or checklist. A good manager or supervisor will take the time to get to know the individual's needs, wants, expectations, etc. and that takes time and effort which people like glen wouldn't or couldn't do because they don't see/treat the person as an individual. It's easier for them to use canned solutions to problems which is why a lot of managers and supervisors fail their employees.
Too many guys like him are stuck in slavedriver mode. The few decent supes I've had have invariably been political and social liberals.

Conservative people simply don't know how to treat others except as things, objects, and status symbols to be owned and shown off. Even in their professional lives. I don't think they know anything else, tbh.
Last edited by carmenjonze on Fri Oct 26, 2018 1:50 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Ethical Dilemma

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carmenjonze » Thu Oct 25, 2018 9:53 pm wrote:
Too many guys like him are stuck in slavedriver mode. The few decent supes I've had have invariably been political and social liberals.

Conservative people simply don't know how to treat others except as things, objects, and status symbols be owned and shown off. Even in their professional lives. I don't think they know anything else, tbh.
I’ve had liberal and conservative supervisors/managers in the AF and most of them have been good. The poor ones were conservatives who like to have an authoritian style of management which may have provided results but it did nothing develop the individual or instill locality and esprit de corps in the unit. I was talking last nright with a retire Navy Chief Petty Officer who now works as a civilian for the Navy as a manager. He is very conservative and he was telling me about a pair of employees who’ve had problems with each other at work. The plan he laid out to me to get their problems ironed out was a good plan and it was exactly the same way I would have done it. Of course, that’s where his management/supervisory training and experience during his Navy career came in handy. He will be able to get both parties to address their issue with each other and work out their differences to the point each will be able to support each other as well the their shop and unit’s mission.
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Re: Ethical Dilemma

Post by carmenjonze »

Number6 » Thu Oct 25, 2018 10:28 pm wrote: I’ve had liberal and conservative supervisors/managers in the AF and most of them have been good. The poor ones were conservatives who like to have an authoritian style of management which may have provided results but it did nothing develop the individual or instill locality and esprit de corps in the unit. I was talking last nright with a retire Navy Chief Petty Officer who now works as a civilian for the Navy as a manager. He is very conservative and he was telling me about a pair of employees who’ve had problems with each other at work. The plan he laid out to me to get their problems ironed out was a good plan and it was exactly the same way I would have done it. Of course, that’s where his management/supervisory training and experience during his Navy career came in handy. He will be able to get both parties to address their issue with each other and work out their differences to the point each will be able to support each other as well the their shop and unit’s mission.
Yeah I could definitely see that. Authoritarians only understand force, tacit or real violence, and forced misery. It's not that I think that only conservatives are prone to it; I don't. I was just talking about a completely unrelated situation in another thread, that of a lot of us "queers" distancing ourselves from the kind of strict morality and bedromm policing that came along with the millieu a lot of us came out as gay/lesbian/bi in. They were meant to be an alternative to mainstream life, but ended up just setting up their own unattainable standards without (imo) ever admitting it. In my view, authoritarianism doesn't even work for the authoritarians.

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Re: Ethical Dilemma

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carmenjonze » Thu Oct 25, 2018 10:55 pm wrote:
Yeah I could definitely see that. Authoritarians only understand force, tacit or real violence, and forced misery. It's not that I think that only conservatives are prone to it; I don't. I was just talking about a completely unrelated situation in another thread, that of a lot of us "queers" distancing ourselves from the kind of strict morality and bedromm policing that came along with the millieu a lot of us came out as gay/lesbian/bi in. They were meant to be an alternative to mainstream life, but ended up just setting up their own unattainable standards without (imo) ever admitting it. In my view, authoritarianism doesn't even work for the authoritarians.
I agree that authoritarianism doesn’t work for the authoritarians. The thing I’ve noticed about authoritarians is they don’t like to work for an authoritian and will bitch and complain but when they’re in charge and they can’t understand why people don’t like them and why they aren’t loyal to them.

At my first base, our hospital administrator was an authoritian who used fear as his management style. He said his favorite book was Winning Through Intimidation and encouraged his officer to do the same. An example of his style was when the AF did their Combined Campaign Fund he went around with a list of names of people who didn’t donate and had them write down why they didn’t donate. One junior NCO didn’t put up with his BS and told him to leave the list and he’ll return it after he makes a copy of it and sends it to his Congressman which ended that bit of intimidation. Needless to say, we were all glad when he transferred out.
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Re: Ethical Dilemma

Post by glenfs »

carmenjonze » Fri Oct 26, 2018 12:53 am wrote:
Too many guys like him are stuck in slavedriver mode. The few decent supes I've had have invariably been political and social liberals.

Conservative people simply don't know how to treat others except as things, objects, and status symbols to be owned and shown off. Even in their professional lives. I don't think they know anything else, tbh.
No, you never quit a job until you have another one lined up and you especially never quit a job because your feelings were hurt. Your first responsibility is to provide for your family.

In 1936 my dad's 7 year old sister died of pneumonia. The morning after she died my grandad got up, went to the barn fed the live stock, milked the cow and gathered up the eggs. Not because he was a heartless person with no feelings. But, because that work had to get done and it wasn't going to do itself. His first responsibility was to provide for his family and on the farm there was no calling off.

Whenever I get in a situation where I want to walk away from a job, I think of my grandad. Imagine quitting a job without another one lined up because of a few pictures of political figures you don't like and comments you don't agree with. Good Lord, those are reasons to look for another job. Not a reason to walk away from the one you have.

https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/294 ... arie-siers" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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Re: Ethical Dilemma

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glenfs » Fri Nov 02, 2018 11:01 am wrote:
No, you never quit a job until you have another one lined up and you especially never quit a job because your feelings were hurt. Your first responsibility is to provide for your family.

In 1936 my dad's 7 year old sister died of pneumonia. The morning after she died my grandad got up, went to the barn fed the live stock, milked the cow and gathered up the eggs. Not because he was a heartless person with no feelings. But, because that work had to get done and it wasn't going to do itself. His first responsibility was to provide for his family and on the farm there was no calling off.

Whenever I get in a situation where I want to walk away from a job, I think of my grandad. Imagine quitting a job without another one lined up because of a few pictures of political figures you don't like and comments you don't agree with. Good Lord, those are reasons to look for another job. Not a reason to walk away from the one you have.

https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/294 ... arie-siers" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
That's a nice little ancedotal story and all, that took place during the depression, but you have no idea what the OP's situation is regarding "providing" for his family.

You could have asked that question but instead you jump to lecturing him. I'm sure he's OK quiting in this situation or he wouldn't have.
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Re: Ethical Dilemma

Post by carmenjonze »

In 1936 your dad, like my dad, was a little kid.

Your dad's family, unlike my dad's family, benefitted from the nationwide whites-rule/whites-first laws and public polices built to prop up conservative white males. Any hardship they encountered were not due to race as imposed onto others by conservative whites. Not so for Black and other minority families of the time.

Until you're ever in a spot where you're a racial, sexual, or gender minority in a workplace, don't ever lecture me about when or when not to quit a job, ever again.

Stop calling the cops on us.

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