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PostPosted: Mon Jan 14, 2019 2:25 pm 
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I just saw the PIE of my household monthly energy costs and 40% is for the water heater.

FORTY PERCENT :roll:

Seems so high I just went to my PGE office and asked them, he said it was a little high but that it was the costliest appliance of any home.

Now there are only two of us and we have a 50 gallon water heater, so that is part of it, too big. I asked the guy if he sees a substantial savings for those with on demand systems, he said NO he didnt think so.

Anyone here have any experience in comparing the two?

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According to Energy.gov, “For homes that use 41 gallons or less of hot water daily, demand (or tankless) water heaters can be 24% to 34% more energy efficient than conventional storage tank water heaters.” Tankless water heaters (if gas-fired) will save homeowners over $100 annually the longer they remain in service.


I guess they call them "tankless", I thought that was my job...never mind.



Mine is gas.

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Last edited by Libertas on Mon Jan 14, 2019 2:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 14, 2019 2:39 pm 
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Check the temp settings on your heating elements if your water heater is electric. Lowering them by 5-10 degrees will save you a few bucks a month.

Adding more exterior insulation to your water heater will help lower costs too.

If you purchase a new electric water heater consider buying a Marathon. They are ridiculously well insulated and have a poly tank that cannot rust.

I would recommend using only gas powered on-demand water heaters. The electric on-demand water heaters might cost more to operate than a traditional water heater because they require so much electricity to operate that a demand charge might kick in when in use.


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 14, 2019 3:26 pm 
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I just saw the PIE of my household monthly energy costs and 40% is for the water heater.

FORTY PERCENT :roll:

Seems so high I just went to my PGE office and asked them, he said it was a little high but that it was the costliest appliance of any home.

Now there are only two of us and we have a 50 gallon water heater, so that is part of it, too big. I asked the guy if he sees a substantial savings for those with on demand systems, he said NO he didnt think so.

Anyone here have any experience in comparing the two?



I guess they call them "tankless", I thought that was my job...never mind.
tu


Mine is gas.

I suggest some more research in comparing electric versus gas tankless water heaters. The advantage of a tankless water heater is your water heater won't have to monitor the temperature and turn-on to keep the water at a certain temperature which, in the long run, costs money. I've had experience using an electric tankless water heater in England and I was impressed by how well it worked. I'd turn on the hot water tap and in a couple of seconds hot water. The HOA complex I live in looked into tankless water heaters (we have two, 100-gallon gas water heaters supplying our 10 units) for each unit but the cost and installation was too expensive for our HOA. If I were building a new home or condo or apartment complex, I'd have a tankless water heater in each unit.

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 14, 2019 3:49 pm 
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I wonder if insulating the pipes running from the water heater to the taps might help. My kitchen faucet takes over a minute before hot water starts; in my bathroom, it's about 15 seconds. Makes me think the pipes must be like a maze.

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 14, 2019 4:26 pm 
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I wonder if insulating the pipes running from the water heater to the taps might help. My kitchen faucet takes over a minute before hot water starts; in my bathroom, it's about 15 seconds. Makes me think the pipes must be like a maze.

How far is the water heater from the faucet? With the faucet turned off the pipe is still filled with water and if it sits unused in the pipes it loses it's heat. You have to get rid of that water before any hot water can be sent from the water heater.

The tankless water heater I used in England was installed in the apartment's kitchen but it also provided water to the bathroom. It had to run 30 feet from the kitchen to the bathroom for the hot water to come out for a bath but that only took about 10 seconds.

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 14, 2019 5:22 pm 
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In any home the water heater will be up to 40-50 feet from at least one faucet.

I would go tankless if I was putting in new, for sure. But I am probably keeping house I live in now to rent out when we move, and the water heater is 14 yrs old I think so I am expecting to need to replace it sooon.

I had a guy tell me about $1000 for existing or $2500 for tankless because of the new gas pipes and so on. Also, in CA water heaters require more insulation now so the same 50 gallon tank will not fit in the spot I have it and there is NO place else to put it nor can I expand the area it is in. So I go 40 gallon or tankless and it will be for renters.

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 14, 2019 9:16 pm 
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How far is the water heater from the faucet? With the faucet turned off the pipe is still filled with water and if it sits unused in the pipes it loses it's heat. You have to get rid of that water before any hot water can be sent from the water heater.

The tankless water heater I used in England was installed in the apartment's kitchen but it also provided water to the bathroom. It had to run 30 feet from the kitchen to the bathroom for the hot water to come out for a bath but that only took about 10 seconds.

Exactly. the water heater is only about 15 feet from the kitchen faucet...so other than the pipes going through some kind of absurd maze, I have no idea why it takes so long. I think it's probably a single series pipe that goes to the bathroom first, then heads back to the kitchen. If I run the bathroom hot water first, then walk to the kitchen, it takes a lot less time for the water to come out hot.

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 14, 2019 10:02 pm 
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Ted suggested additional insulation. So that you know how to find it they're called blankets.

Good search words to use: Thermwell Products Water Heater Blanket, 1.5" Thick

I'm not saying buy at Wallmart, what I am saying is more than 15 to 20 bucks for one and you're getting skinned.

Keep the heater you are using. A blanket is the best thing you can do. There is no such thing as a more efficient electric water heater element. The only way to increase efficiency is to add insulation. So add insulation to the tank.

The pipes only lose heat which could be saved by insulation when the water is flowing. Any heat in them is going to be lost once the flow stops anyway because insulation only slows down heat loss. Insulating them is difficult and will not save enough to make it worthwhile.


A hot water drip at a facet, bath, or shower anywhere in the house will not only be a drip of water it wastes. It wastes about 800 BTU's per gallon. There are about 3500 BTU's per Kilowatt hour, which if you are complaining about your bill means you are paying the top rate of 35 to 37 cents.

So the cost of a hot water drip at a facet is about 8 cents per gallon.

One time I saw a fellow ignoring a hot water "drip" (it was a tiny stream) while complaining that his electric bill had gone up 200 bucks a month. I put a five gallon bucket under it and it was leaking at a rate of about 3 gallons an hour. The math confirmed it, that was where his money was going.

That was a big expensive leak.


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2019 12:11 pm 
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In any home the water heater will be up to 40-50 feet from at least one faucet.

I would go tankless if I was putting in new, for sure. But I am probably keeping house I live in now to rent out when we move, and the water heater is 14 yrs old I think so I am expecting to need to replace it sooon.

I had a guy tell me about $1000 for existing or $2500 for tankless because of the new gas pipes and so on. Also, in CA water heaters require more insulation now so the same 50 gallon tank will not fit in the spot I have it and there is NO place else to put it nor can I expand the area it is in. ...
I've been looking at this lately, and, generally speaking, your conclusion seems to be the consensus.

Tank water heaters are an extremely inefficient way to heat/supply water. No so much from a water use perspective, but from an energy use. However the cost of retrofitting the utilities in the house to accommodate an on-demand system (especially electric vs gas) often makes the payback 10 to 20 years. New construction, though....seems like the way to go. Payback on only the heater would be only a few years.

If you do go with on-demand, you'd want to make it large enough to cover your peak demand per minute load.


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2019 2:41 pm 
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One more thing about tank water heaters. As someone pointed out, they are particularly inefficient because (ironically to save energy) they actually keep water warm in a fairly broad range. So, say, you have your tank set at 120 deg f. It will generally allow the water to cool to 100 prior to firing up, or go up to 140 prior to shutting off the heating element. (The temperature probe is usually at the bottom of the tank, where cold water enters, and the hottest water is at the top.) That means wherever you are in the cycle will have an impact on the amount of hot water you actually have available. On the other hand, except at the time of multiple showers, this is rarely an issue. Also, the sediment at the bottom of the tank 1) takes of space...and depending on the age and water it can be siginiciant and 2) makes it harder to heat incoming water.

Multiple showers are rarely an issue with on-demand...UNLESS you are taking them concurrently (in different showers), or are using other water hogging devices at the same time (ie dishwashers, clothes washers, even hot water faucets). That's why sizing them for your use correctly is important.

One can also significantly extend the life of a tank water heater with the follow two types of maintenance. 1) drain some of the water from the bottom of the tank on a regular basis. It will flush out some of the sediment. Some people completely drain/flush the tank annually. 2) replace the anode rod on a regular basis (every couple of years)...though I'm not sure whether newer tanks still have them.


Last edited by Viewer on Tue Jan 15, 2019 3:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2019 3:18 pm 
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Some houses around here have recirculating pumps. That solves the cooling water in the pipes problem but it's also an energy hog for several reasons. We elected to keep the cold water.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2019 7:37 pm 
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Some houses around here have recirculating pumps. That solves the cooling water in the pipes problem but it's also an energy hog for several reasons. We elected to keep the cold water.

Our HOA complex has two 100-gallon water heaters servicing 5-units each and both have recirculating pumps. The distance from the water heater to the farthest unit is 100 feet so the recirculating pumps which helps so we don't have to keep the water running longer than necessary.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2019 8:33 pm 
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www.youtube.com Video from : www.youtube.com


creative way to dispose of the heat you pull out of the air,

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