Green Light for Erdogan?

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carmenjonze
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Re: Green Light for Erdogan?

Post by carmenjonze »

Ike Bana » Tue Oct 08, 2019 6:21 am wrote:
You do understand that
Copycatting, imitation; incel resentment

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Re: Green Light for Erdogan?

Post by carmenjonze »

Lol what a ridiculous misanthrope. :problem:
Yeah, prof, this is all a putin deal and some profit somewhere for the traitor.

GOP loves it though, they must
Have ANY of them spoken up about it yet?
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Re: Green Light for Erdogan?

Post by ZoWie »

Definitely Putin's in on this somewhere. I can't say where yet.

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Re: Green Light for Erdogan?

Post by carmenjonze »

ZoWie » Tue Oct 08, 2019 10:07 am wrote:Definitely Putin's in on this somewhere. I can't say where yet.
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Re: Green Light for Erdogan?

Post by bradman »

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-10-09/ ... a/11584898" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Now Turkey is saying its invasion of other Kurdish areas will help Syrian Arab refugees return to places that have been taken over by Kurds.

Another key reason Turkey wants to weaken Kurdish control of northern Syria is its experience with another Kurdish-governed region in neighbouring Iraq.

The area the Kurds call Rojava borders an autonomous region of Iraq known as the Kurdistan Regional Government, which Turkey says is used by the PKK to base its militants and launch attacks.

Turkey does not want Rojava to become an internationally accepted and entrenched part of the region like its Iraqi neighbour.

"This is one of the main fears of the Turkish Government and the Turkish society," Syria analyst Ömer Özkizilcik said.

Kurds from northern Syria are likely to flee to Iraq when Turkey invades.

The United Nations and human rights groups are warning of grave humanitarian consequences while security analysts say a Turkish offensive could allow the Islamic State to re-emerge as a serious threat.

But to Turkey those consequences are less frightening than the prospect of an enduring, internationally-accepted Kurdish state on its border, one that strengthens the prospect of a wider Kurdish homeland in the Middle East.
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Ike Bana
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Re: Green Light for Erdogan?

Post by Ike Bana »

And the government of this country, regardless of the political party in power, will continue to have a foreign policy of utter convenience.

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Re: Green Light for Erdogan?

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The UN Security Council took a vote on taking action in this crisis.

There are a lot of 3-2 SC votes, where Russia and China often vote against the US, UK, and France.

Yeah, this may be the harbinger of many votes to come. This time, the U.S. and Russia vetoed taking any action.

Funny, that.
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Re: Green Light for Erdogan?

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[from twitter]
Brett McGurk✔@brett_mcgurk
Turkish forces have fired on a declared U.S. military outpost in northern Syria. Turkey knows all of our locations down to the precise grid coordinate as confirmed by SECDEF and CJCS only two hours ago. This was not a mistake.
[end]

Hmmm .... now from where would they have known where U.S. forces had been relocated to? Yeah, that question is absolutely rhetorical.

BTW, as we march toward impeachment, I would cite this as DIRECT evidence that Drumpf is a threat to our national security and U.S. forces.
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RoyPDX
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Re: Green Light for Erdogan?

Post by RoyPDX »

I begin to wonder...how soon before Turkey gets booted from NATO? Of course the way things are going, we may be booted first.
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Re: Green Light for Erdogan?

Post by ZoWie »

If they don't write an article of impeachment just for drumpf's Syria boner, they aren't trying hard enough. It's a complete compromise of national security to appease two dictators abroad.

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Re: Green Light for Erdogan?

Post by ProfessorX »

Yeah, this is going to work out well.

KURDISH-LED SDF FORCES IN SYRIA: ISIS PRISONERS NO LONGER 'OUR RESPONSIBILITY' AS FIVE ESCAPE AND THOUSANDS MORE AT RISK OF BREAKING FREE
https://www.newsweek.com/kurdish-sdf-fo ... eekTwitter" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Remember when Trump once called Obama the "founder" of ISIS? Who knows what the hell he meant, but I hereby dub Trump the "continuer" of ISIS, the guy who made sure they would keep operating.

Pullback in Syria could prolong war 'two or three decades,' former top diplomat says
https://www.yahoo.com/news/pullback-in- ... 15706.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Yay. 20 more years of the Syrian Civil War. :|
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Re: Green Light for Erdogan?

Post by ap215 »

Senior female Kurdish political leader killed in ambush in Syria

ERBIL (Kurdistan 24) – The Future Syria Party’s Secretary-General, Hevrin Khalaf, was killed on Saturday when Turkish-backed groups tried to take control of a point on the international M4 road.

“With utmost grievance and sadness, the Syria Future Party mourns the martyrdom of engineer Havrin Khalaf, the General Secretary of Syria Future Party, while she was performing her patriotic and political duties,” the Future Party said in a statement.

https://www.kurdistan24.net/en/news/dad ... 94a4e176d9" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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Re: Green Light for Erdogan?

Post by Ike Bana »

This bullshit pandering to Turk autocrats and their vicious and murderous history with the Kurdish minority and other opposition groups has been going on for decades. Back to Reagan and Rumsfeld. And including Clinton and Obama.

Kurds in Syria and Iraq are heroic freedom fighters. Kurds in Turkey are terrorists.

The usual suspects around here aren't gonna like this, but Trump is not that much worse, if worse at all, than most of his predecessors when it comes to the treatment of ethnic Kurds by the Turk majority.

Ali: God help the men who lie under that.
Lawrence: They're Turks.
Ali: God help them.
Lawrence: (frowns)

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Re: Green Light for Erdogan?

Post by ProfessorX »

Ike Bana » Sat Oct 12, 2019 12:04 pm wrote: Kurds in Turkey are terrorists.
Msr. Quantifier, don't you think that should be qualified? With the word "some"?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurds_in_Turkey" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Kurds are the largest minority in the country, about 20% of the population. Many of them are not members of the PKK or other terrorist organizations. 59% do not appear to want a separate Kurdistan or separate state from the rest of Turkey. And many of those that DO are pursing separatism or autonomy are doing so through peaceful and democratic means. Wanting autonomy is not terrorism. Resisting ethnic persecution and oppression is not terrorism. Erdogan may want to label it as such, but it's not true.

Erdogan is attacking the Kurds in Syria because he deeply fears Rojava is an inspiration to the Kurds in Turkey to try similar experiments in autonomy, and he doesn't like that. That is what he is most afraid of.

Anyway, I don't know who your usual suspects are, but as far as U.S. policy consistently selling them out over the last few decades, well, yeah, and I would argue mostly to appease Turkey. Same reason BTW why some politicians are afraid to label the Armenian Genocide what it was ... genocide. Thing is, pre-Erdogan Turkey behaved a lot more like an actual NATO ally; post-Erdogan Turkey is far more of a puzzle. A country that increasingly doesn't behave like an ally ... maybe we should stop treating as one.
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Ike Bana
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Re: Green Light for Erdogan?

Post by Ike Bana »

ProfessorX » Sat Oct 12, 2019 2:07 pm wrote:Thing is, pre-Erdogan Turkey behaved a lot more like an actual NATO ally; post-Erdogan Turkey is far more of a puzzle. A country that increasingly doesn't behave like an ally ... maybe we should stop treating as one.
Fat fucking chance. Obama could have done something about this. Yeah sure.

And pre-Erogan Turkey was less autocratic? Feh. Erdogan came to national prominence as prime minister in 2003. The Clinton Administration under pressure from the Turkish government to support American anti-terrorism efforts, the U.S. State Department retroactively labeled the PKK a "terrorist organization" in 1997. The Turks have been playing this game for decades.

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carmenjonze
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Re: Green Light for Erdogan?

Post by carmenjonze »

Ike Bana » Sat Oct 12, 2019 9:04 am wrote:Kurds in Syria and Iraq are heroic freedom fighters. Kurds in Turkey are terrorists.
This is sarcasm, no?

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Re: Green Light for Erdogan?

Post by ProfessorX »

Ike Bana » Sat Oct 12, 2019 4:42 pm wrote: And pre-Erogan Turkey was less autocratic?
I'm not saying it was a picnic pre-Erdogan. At the very start of the post-Ottoman Republic, the Young Turks inflicted genocide on the Armenians. There were a series of military coups leading to RW military rule (the usual result), the last one in 1980, with aftereffects lasting a while. Also, they invaded Cyprus in 1974. Still there with a military presence.

I would say prior to his rule in 2002, it was a troubled multiparty parliamentary democracy. In theory, it still is. But Erdogan has done some power consolidating stuff esp. post the mysterious "coup" of 2016 (where he seemed to have a list of the coup plotters beforehand, very strange) that is even more autocratic than before. The human rights situation (torture) and freedom of the press and other civil liberties have gone way downhill. And whatever you can say about Turkey's previous military coup-rulers, at least unlike Erdogan they were pro-Western/NATO and pro-secularism, so they were ... tolerated.
the U.S. State Department retroactively labeled the PKK a "terrorist organization" in 1997. The Turks have been playing this game for decades.
Well, look. They have committed terrorist acts (IMHO) -- kidnappings, bombings, attacks on civilians, etc. Incidentally, they are labeled a terrorist group also by the EU, but not by the UN.

But the thing is, most of their militant activity is in the SE part of Turkey (closer to Iraq), while the folks Erdogan is currently bombing the crap out of are to its SW.

What I don't agree with is saying all Kurds in Turkey support it or its actions ... of course, as Carmen suggested, maybe you were being ironic (with you sometimes it's hard to tell). (There are some who again want autonomy but don't necessarily agree with the PKK path to it and would rather do it through peaceful democratic means.)

And what I also think is true is Erdogan has used it much like we use the "war on terra" here ... to use the "war on the PKK" to crack down on civil liberties for all Turkish minorities. And to justify this current round of atrocities in Syria.
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Re: Green Light for Erdogan?

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So back to the present ... we can talk about what the last eight POTUSes did or didn't do WRT Turkey (a fine historical discussion but doesn't affect the present), but it's now, now.

And this is the now.

[from twitter]
Botin Kurdistani@kurdistannews24 #BREAKING:
Kurdish Human right activist & The secretary-general of the Future Syria Party,Ms #Hervin_Khalaf ,has been raped & then stoned to death by #Turkey backed Jihadists near #Hasakah during Turkey's ethnic cleansing operation against #Kurds in Syria.
@brett_mcgurk #amnesty
[end]

This is what the present action has wrought. EDIT: I see ap215 posted about it from a news source up above. Sorry for reduplication. This from Msr. McGurk this morning:

[from twitter]
Brett McGurk✔@brett_mcgurk
Only four days into Turkish attack and one week after POTUS-Erdogan call:

* UN: 130k displaced (likely to 3x)
* ISIS terrorists escaping (caught after years of painstaking effort)
* Syrians executed on roadways by Turkish-backed opposition forces
* Main US supply lines cut..
* US forces fired on “danger close”
* Female politician brutally murdered
* Turkish forces operating well outside “security mechanism” area
* Increasingly impossible for US forces to remain in Syria at all
* No plan to take care of anyone who worked with us

Total disaster
[end]
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Re: Green Light for Erdogan?

Post by ZoWie »

US troops (all 1000 of them) are in full retreat. This is a catastrophe. No, it's worse than that. It makes the top ten list of US foreign policy disasters for sure.

Words can't describe how bad this is.

Thank you, world organized crime and your stooge in the White House.

BBC:

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-50034802" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
The US is pulling out all of its troops from northern Syria as Turkey advances its operation against the Kurds.

Defence Secretary [du jour -Z] Mark Esper said Turkey "likely intends" to extend its attack further than originally planned.

[Gee, who could have expected that? {sarcastic tone} -Z]

The assault is aimed at forcing out Kurdish forces - the main US ally in the area. They may be seeking help from Syria and Russia, said Mr Esper, and the US would not be defending them.

...

The situation in Syria is becoming "very untenable", US Defence Secretary Mark Esper told CBS's Face the Nation on Sunday.

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Re: Green Light for Erdogan?

Post by Ike Bana »

carmenjonze » Sun Oct 13, 2019 1:17 am wrote:
This is sarcasm, no?
It's how the issue of the oppression of Kurds and pandering to Turk autocrats, has been approached by various administrations of this country for decades. But particularly during Bush II.

But I understand how much you enjoy playing it as deliberately obtuse.

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Re: Green Light for Erdogan?

Post by ZoWie »

Unconfirmed reports that the Kurdish militia has indeed allied with Russia, who will be sending troops to the region. The Kurds now consider the United States to be enemy combatants.

Former SECDEF Mattis says, "It's absolutely a given that ISIS will come back."

Double crossing an ally and giving new life to a terrorist organization that attacks Americans is treason. Fits the full constitutional description. He's a traitor.

Edit to add:

Laurence Tribe, who teaches law at Harvard, tweets:
This *borders* on treason but doesn’t cross the line: Even if ISIS is an “enemy” under Article III because of the AUMF, Trump’s assistance to ISIS was too unplanned — and, well, mindless— to meet the definition of “adhering to [our] Enemies, giving them Aid and Comfort.”
You know it's bad when stupidity is a legitimate and credible defense.
Last edited by ZoWie on Sun Oct 13, 2019 5:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Green Light for Erdogan?

Post by ZoWie »

Now there's a multi-sourced, fairly reliable report that the Syrian military will deploy to the area to help the Kurds fight Turkey.

One guy (Mattis?) said NATO still has 60 nukes deployed in Turkey, and we should get them the fuck out of there forthwith before something goes very wrong.

What a clusterfuck.

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Re: Green Light for Erdogan?

Post by ProfessorX »

As is often the case in these cf's, journalists are now coming under attack.

Turkish air raid in Syria kills several civilians, at least one journalist
https://www.france24.com/en/20191013-tu ... urnalist-1" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

At least nine people were killed, including five civilians and one journalist, in a Turkish air raid on a convoy of civilians in northern Syria on Sunday, FRANCE 24 correspondent Jasper Mortimer said.

Two French journalists were also injured during the attack. The nationality of the slain journalist has not yet been confirmed.

France 2 television journalist Stéphanie Perez wrote on Twitter that she was travelling in the convoy that was hit.

[snip][end]
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Re: Green Light for Erdogan?

Post by Ike Bana »

So the rest of the world is now finding out what the Kurds have known for a long time. And what the victims of the Ottoman Empire knew a hundred years ago.

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Re: Green Light for Erdogan?

Post by carmenjonze »

Ike Bana » Sun Oct 13, 2019 12:47 pm wrote:
It's how the issue of the oppression of Kurds and pandering to Turk autocrats, has been approached by various administrations of this country for decades. But particularly during Bush II.

But I understand ...
Lol you understand so little, including that my four-word q. was not a hostile q.

I wasn't the only person with a related question.

Stop calling the cops on us.

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