Racist/Corrupt/Immoral Police Thread.

News and events of the day
JoeMemphis

Re: Racist/Corrupt/Immoral Police Thread.

Post by JoeMemphis »

gounion wrote: Fri Feb 03, 2023 10:10 am Again, I asked what Lt. Lazaro and Philando Castile should have done. After all, the officers were all found not guilty in both cases.

And you said “But the point is that people who don’t resist don’t get beat up or killed.”

So what should they have done differently? Please answer the question.

I will refuse unlawful orders. I will stand on my Constitutional Rights.

And you will not. You will be a sheep and do whatever your Civli Masters orders you to do.
Yep. Statistically the people who do not fight, do not resist, do not get beaten up or killed. So the advice I would give anyone as far as encounters with LE is to comply with the lawful orders of LE. Not to fight. Not to resist.
gounion
Posts: 18056
Joined: Sun Oct 24, 2021 4:59 pm

Re: Racist/Corrupt/Immoral Police Thread.

Post by gounion »

JoeMemphis wrote: Fri Feb 03, 2023 10:20 am Yep. Statistically the people who do not fight, do not resist, do not get beaten up or killed. So the advice I would give anyone as far as encounters with LE is to comply with the lawful orders of LE. Not to fight. Not to resist.
That’s what they did, and the cops were cleared of wrongdoing by the courts so what should they have done? They didn’t resist and you say “ But the point is that people who don’t resist don’t get beat up or killed.”
JoeMemphis

Re: Racist/Corrupt/Immoral Police Thread.

Post by JoeMemphis »

gounion wrote: Fri Feb 03, 2023 10:24 am That’s what they did, and the cops were cleared of wrongdoing by the courts so what should they have done? They didn’t resist and you say “ But the point is that people who don’t resist don’t get beat up or killed.”
And statistically people who don’t resist and don’t fight don’t get killed or beaten. The vast majority. Well over 90 percent. So the advice I would give is not to fight or resist police in the field.

If you tell people to resist or fight the police, you risk giving them advice that might result in injury or death.

So what is your advice gonna be? I already told you what mine is. It hasn’t changed.
bradman
Posts: 2668
Joined: Mon Oct 25, 2021 10:03 am
Location: Home of the DFL

Re: Racist/Corrupt/Immoral Police Thread.

Post by bradman »

As one police officer explained it to me.

First contact usually starts out at a 1. If the person being questioned raises it to a 2, he'll raise it to a 3. Raise it to 3, he'll raise it to 4. If ya make it to an 8, well, you're probably going to jail. It works the other way too. If you drop it from a 5 to a 2, he'll drop it to a 3. According to him, the difficulty is keeping your cool while offering them the chance to de-escalate.
I am not a member of any organized political party. I am a Democrat. [Will Rogers]
gounion
Posts: 18056
Joined: Sun Oct 24, 2021 4:59 pm

Re: Racist/Corrupt/Immoral Police Thread.

Post by gounion »

JoeMemphis wrote: Fri Feb 03, 2023 10:33 am And statistically people who don’t resist and don’t fight don’t get killed or beaten. The vast majority. Well over 90 percent. So the advice I would give is not to fight or resist police in the field.

If you tell people to resist or fight the police, you risk giving them advice that might result in injury or death.

So what is your advice gonna be? I already told you what mine is. It hasn’t changed.
So hey, they have a one in ten chance of living through it, so that’s good with you, right?

That’s bullshit, and we both know it.

Neither Lazario nor Castile had a choice. Lazario was assaulted, treated with death, had a gun to his head, and he was a serviceman in uniform. And he got NO justice, as the cops were cleared of any wrongdoing by the courts. Castile was complying completely, and he was shot dead in front of his wife. Of course, you guys say people should have rights to have a gun. I guess only if you’re white. The cop in is case was also found not guilty by the courts.

But hey, only a one-in-ten chance and “the point is that people who don’t resist don’t get beat up or killed.”

Just keep denying that we need REAL reform. We don’t need more cops and more weapons.
gounion
Posts: 18056
Joined: Sun Oct 24, 2021 4:59 pm

Re: Racist/Corrupt/Immoral Police Thread.

Post by gounion »

bradman wrote: Fri Feb 03, 2023 10:45 am As one police officer explained it to me.

First contact usually starts out at a 1. If the person being questioned raises it to a 2, he'll raise it to a 3. Raise it to 3, he'll raise it to 4. If ya make it to an 8, well, you're probably going to jail. It works the other way too. If you drop it from a 5 to a 2, he'll drop it to a 3. According to him, the difficulty is keeping your cool while offering them the chance to de-escalate.
Yeah, I don’t see that as the real world. So I’d ask you, what did Lt. Lazario and Philando Castile wrong? What should they have done differently?
JoeMemphis

Re: Racist/Corrupt/Immoral Police Thread.

Post by JoeMemphis »

gounion wrote: Fri Feb 03, 2023 10:46 am So hey, they have a one in ten chance of living through it, so that’s good with you, right?

That’s bullshit, and we both know it.

Neither Lazario nor Castile had a choice. Lazario was assaulted, treated with death, had a gun to his head, and he was a serviceman in uniform. And he got NO justice, as the cops were cleared of any wrongdoing by the courts. Castile was complying completely, and he was shot dead in front of his wife. Of course, you guys say people should have rights to have a gun. I guess only if you’re white. The cop in is case was also found not guilty by the courts.

But hey, only a one-in-ten chance and “the point is that people who don’t resist don’t get beat up or killed.”

Just keep denying that we need REAL reform. We don’t need more cops and more weapons.
I didn’t say that we didn’t need reform. I said we don’t need to throw out what works most of the time. We need to address its shortcomings. But you and I differ on both the advice we would give the public and the solutions we would offer to improve the safety of all citizens.
gounion
Posts: 18056
Joined: Sun Oct 24, 2021 4:59 pm

Re: Racist/Corrupt/Immoral Police Thread.

Post by gounion »

JoeMemphis wrote: Fri Feb 03, 2023 10:55 am I didn’t say that we didn’t need reform. I said we don’t need to throw out what works most of the time. We need to address its shortcomings. But you and I differ on both the advice we would give the public and the solutions we would offer to improve the safety of all citizens.
Trouble is, you’re in denial of the real issues, when you believe “ But the point is that people who don’t resist don’t get beat up or killed.” Because they DO. And telling people to comply with illegal and unconstitutional orders is just plain wrong. No, the solution is to ensure that cops don’t give illegal and unconstitutional orders. Now that everyone has a camera on their phone, we see new videos every day of cops giving illegal and unconstitutional orders, including ordering people NOT to videotape cops.

Plus, we have laws and courts that let cops get away with murder, as in the Castile killing. I’ll bet if Castile had been a white NRA right-winger, you’d have been outraged over his death. As it is, you don’t even want to DISCUSS the wrongs did to Lt. Lazario and Castile.
User avatar
ZoWie
Posts: 5437
Joined: Sun Oct 24, 2021 4:39 pm
Location: The blue parts of the map

Re: Racist/Corrupt/Immoral Police Thread.

Post by ZoWie »

We're getting awfully hung on the definition of "resisting." That's awfully subjective, and yes, often race based. It's not about resisting anyway, it's about using it later as a justification for street justice when the fact is you just got pissed off.
"We must remember that we cannot abandon the truth and remain a free nation." --Liz Cheney, Republican, 7/21/22
gounion
Posts: 18056
Joined: Sun Oct 24, 2021 4:59 pm

Re: Racist/Corrupt/Immoral Police Thread.

Post by gounion »

ZoWie wrote: Fri Feb 03, 2023 11:15 am We're getting awfully hung on the definition of "resisting." That's awfully subjective, and yes, often race based. It's not about resisting anyway, it's about using it later as a justification for street justice when the fact is you just got pissed off.
And, sadly, that doesn’t work either, as the cops in BOTH the cases I’ve identified were cleared by the courts of any wrongdoing whatsoever, even when it resulted in death.
User avatar
ZoWie
Posts: 5437
Joined: Sun Oct 24, 2021 4:39 pm
Location: The blue parts of the map

Re: Racist/Corrupt/Immoral Police Thread.

Post by ZoWie »

"He was resisting" seems to be the language that gets agreed on later when street justice has to be explained to the police chief and/or city council. It typically means, "We got our stories straight beforehand."
"We must remember that we cannot abandon the truth and remain a free nation." --Liz Cheney, Republican, 7/21/22
bradman
Posts: 2668
Joined: Mon Oct 25, 2021 10:03 am
Location: Home of the DFL

Re: Racist/Corrupt/Immoral Police Thread.

Post by bradman »

gounion wrote: Fri Feb 03, 2023 10:46 am Yeah, I don’t see that as the real world. So I’d ask you, what did Lt. Lazario and Philando Castile wrong? What should they have done differently?
Lazario probably shouldn't have driven around looking for a spot to pull over with a cop following with lights on. Pull over and if it's unsafe the office will ask you to then move to a better spot. Don't get me wrong, it's still no excuse for the way he was treated.
As far as i know Castile did nothing wrong.

What should have been done differently? In one case you have an authoritarian cowboy, in the other a cop that totally lost his cool and pissed his pants.

Better screening and standards should have disqualified both.
I am not a member of any organized political party. I am a Democrat. [Will Rogers]
gounion
Posts: 18056
Joined: Sun Oct 24, 2021 4:59 pm

Re: Racist/Corrupt/Immoral Police Thread.

Post by gounion »

ZoWie wrote: Fri Feb 03, 2023 11:36 am "He was resisting" seems to be the language that gets agreed on later when street justice has to be explained to the police chief and/or city council. It typically means, "We got our stories straight beforehand."
Yes there’s many time when the police report says they resisted, and video shows the opposite. Of course, nothing is done to the cops for lying on an official report.

Now that’s something I’d recommend. If you’re caught lying on your report, you should be fired and not eligible to bee a cop again anywhere in the country.
gounion
Posts: 18056
Joined: Sun Oct 24, 2021 4:59 pm

Re: Racist/Corrupt/Immoral Police Thread.

Post by gounion »

Actually it’s recommended to put on your blinkers and find a good spot.

And yes, the cops shouldn’t have ever been given a badge, and they shouldn’t have been cleared of wrongdoing by the courts.
JoeMemphis

Re: Racist/Corrupt/Immoral Police Thread.

Post by JoeMemphis »

gounion wrote: Fri Feb 03, 2023 11:04 am Trouble is, you’re in denial of the real issues, when you believe “ But the point is that people who don’t resist don’t get beat up or killed.” Because they DO. And telling people to comply with illegal and unconstitutional orders is just plain wrong. No, the solution is to ensure that cops don’t give illegal and unconstitutional orders. Now that everyone has a camera on their phone, we see new videos every day of cops giving illegal and unconstitutional orders, including ordering people NOT to videotape cops.

Plus, we have laws and courts that let cops get away with murder, as in the Castile killing. I’ll bet if Castile had been a white NRA right-winger, you’d have been outraged over his death. As it is, you don’t even want to DISCUSS the wrongs did to Lt. Lazario and Castile.
I am not the one in denial. You act as if there is some kind of magic solution out there that will guarantee 100 percent success. It doesn’t exist. That’s the real world. That’s reality. You don’t have such a solution either. In fact I doubt you have a solution that will keep the streets safe and ensure 90 percent compliance with law enforcement. Not everything is flowers and unicorns.

We have processes and procedures for dealing with officers that exceed their authority. It doesn’t involve active resistance in the field. Is it perfect? No. Is it always fair? No. Can it be improved? Sure. Is it likely to get you beaten up or killed? No.

So you advise folks however you choose. That’s up to you. But I tend to favor solutions that don’t end up getting people beaten of killed. But that’s just me.
gounion
Posts: 18056
Joined: Sun Oct 24, 2021 4:59 pm

Re: Racist/Corrupt/Immoral Police Thread.

Post by gounion »

JoeMemphis wrote: Fri Feb 03, 2023 10:33 am And statistically people who don’t resist and don’t fight don’t get killed or beaten. The vast majority. Well over 90 percent. So the advice I would give is not to fight or resist police in the field.

If you tell people to resist or fight the police, you risk giving them advice that might result in injury or death.

So what is your advice gonna be? I already told you what mine is. It hasn’t changed.
I'll tell you again. I won't let police in my house without a warrant. I won't let them search my car without a warrant. I won't obey illegal or unconstitutional orders.

Now, you'll do whatever your civil masters tell you to do, but I won't.
gounion
Posts: 18056
Joined: Sun Oct 24, 2021 4:59 pm

Re: Racist/Corrupt/Immoral Police Thread.

Post by gounion »

JoeMemphis wrote: Fri Feb 03, 2023 11:59 am I am not the one in denial. You act as if there is some kind of magic solution out there that will guarantee 100 percent success. It doesn’t exist. That’s the real world. That’s reality. You don’t have such a solution either. In fact I doubt you have a solution that will keep the streets safe and ensure 90 percent compliance with law enforcement. Not everything is flowers and unicorns.

We have processes and procedures for dealing with officers that exceed their authority. It doesn’t involve active resistance in the field. Is it perfect? No. Is it always fair? No. Can it be improved? Sure. Is it likely to get you beaten up or killed? No.

So you advise folks however you choose. That’s up to you. But I tend to favor solutions that don’t end up getting people beaten of killed. But that’s just me.
You're the one saying that black people are getting beaten up and killed because they resist. That's not true.

And we realize that you don't give a shit about people's rights.
gounion
Posts: 18056
Joined: Sun Oct 24, 2021 4:59 pm

Re: Racist/Corrupt/Immoral Police Thread.

Post by gounion »

Racist Cops: "I kill black people for a living" "I like dark meat"
California police departments were required under a 2021 law to release misconduct records to increase transparency and improve community relations, and KFMB-TV's review found that San Diego police targeted Black drivers, conducted improper searches and engaged in disturbing behavior while on and off duty.

"I kill [Black People] for a living," yelled one officer during a drunken disturbance at a bar in 2020, according to one investigative report. "I am a cop."

Another officer allegedly handcuffed a Latina woman in 2021 and told her that he did "not like dark meat."

Both officers, however, eventually returned to their jobs.

The misconduct records corroborate years of complaints from minority residents, which were also substantiated by a 2016 study by San Diego State University that found "meaningful differences in the treatment of Black and Hispanic drivers, as compared to whites."
So go ahead, Joe, tell me the problem is that black people resist officers.

The problem is far deeper than that.
JoeMemphis

Re: Racist/Corrupt/Immoral Police Thread.

Post by JoeMemphis »

gounion wrote: Fri Feb 03, 2023 4:34 pm Racist Cops: "I kill black people for a living" "I like dark meat"



So go ahead, Joe, tell me the problem is that black people resist officers.

The problem is far deeper than that.
Show me an example of any large metropolitan area which has no problems of any kind. No employee problems. Show me any large organization that has no such issues. So if your expectation is some kind of utopian perfection, show me one. You talk like you have the answers. So show me.

As far as your posted example, I believe in California, what prevents CA from making all the reforms you suggest? Why hasn’t it been done there? Or maybe the folks running CA need to hire you so you can tell them how deep the problem runs.
Glennfs
Posts: 10998
Joined: Sun Oct 24, 2021 12:54 pm

Re: Racist/Corrupt/Immoral Police Thread.

Post by Glennfs »

gounion wrote: Fri Feb 03, 2023 4:27 pm I'll tell you again. I won't let police in my house without a warrant. I won't let them search my car without a warrant. I won't obey illegal or unconstitutional orders.

Now, you'll do whatever your civil masters tell you to do, but I won't.
I am not big on the white privilege thing, but what you describe is 64 year old white guy driving a decent car who appears to have means privilege.
Let 20 year old broke GoU driving a beater car try that and see where it gets you.

Again here in the real world you
Turn on your light
Keep hands on the wheel
Answer yes sir and no sir
You do not debate or ask questions or start spouting about rights. Just comply.
Deal with problems the next day.

I forgot to add if they ask for something in the glove box you ask permission before going after it.
" I am a socialist " Bernie Sanders
Glennfs
Posts: 10998
Joined: Sun Oct 24, 2021 12:54 pm

Re: Racist/Corrupt/Immoral Police Thread.

Post by Glennfs »

gounion wrote: Fri Feb 03, 2023 10:10 am Again, I asked what Lt. Lazaro and Philando Castile should have done. After all, the officers were all found not guilty in both cases.

And you said “But the point is that people who don’t resist don’t get beat up or killed.”

So what should they have done differently? Please answer the question.

I will refuse unlawful orders. I will stand on my Constitutional Rights.

And you will not. You will be a sheep and do whatever your Civli Masters orders you to do.

No matter what they did or didn't do there are going to be incidents when no matter what you do it isn't going to matter.

One thing for sure when you get stopped if you start giving the cops guff you are going to lose that argument 200pct of the time.

It is always best to just cooperate yes sir no sir etc. The goal is to get away as quickly as possible with as little damage as possible.
Figurative not literal damage
" I am a socialist " Bernie Sanders
gounion
Posts: 18056
Joined: Sun Oct 24, 2021 4:59 pm

Re: Racist/Corrupt/Immoral Police Thread.

Post by gounion »

Glennfs wrote: Fri Feb 03, 2023 8:14 pm No matter what they did or didn't do there are going to be incidents when no matter what you do it isn't going to matter.

One thing for sure when you get stopped if you start giving the cops guff you are going to lose that argument 200pct of the time.

It is always best to just cooperate yes sir no sir etc. The goal is to get away as quickly as possible with as little damage as possible.
Figurative not literal damage
Funny how you don't believe in standing up for your Constitutional Rights. Go ahead, bow down to your civil masters.
bradman
Posts: 2668
Joined: Mon Oct 25, 2021 10:03 am
Location: Home of the DFL

Re: Racist/Corrupt/Immoral Police Thread.

Post by bradman »

https://www.findlaw.com/criminal/crimin ... rrant.html
Can the Police Legitimately Search My Vehicle Without a Warrant?
The short answer is: Yes. Police can legally search your car if they have probable cause.

The Fourth Amendment's protection against unlawful search and seizure generally prohibits arbitrary vehicle searches by police. If the police search your car without a warrant, your permission, or a valid reason, they are violating your constitutional rights. Nevertheless, there are some limited situations in which police can search a car without a warrant or your consent.

When it comes to vehicle searches, courts generally give police more leeway compared to when police are attempting to search a residence. This is because, under the "automobile exception" to the search warrant requirement, courts have recognized that individuals have a lower expectation of privacy when driving a car than when they're in their homes.

It’s also worth noting that, while the U.S. Constitution sets the minimum level of protection for an individual's rights, states are free to provide even more protections to an individual’s privacy rights. They could therefore pass laws placing greater restrictions on police when it comes to searching vehicles without a warrant.
+
When Can Police Do a Warrantless Search?
Not every police search must be made under a lawfully executed warrant. The Supreme Court has ruled that warrantless police conduct may comply with the Fourth Amendment, so long as it's reasonable under the circumstances.

So, when can police search your car without a warrant? Generally, under the following circumstances:

1.You have given the officer consent;
2.The officer has probable cause to believe there is evidence of a crime in your vehicle;3
3The officer reasonably believes a search is necessary for their own protection (a hidden weapon, for example); and
4.You have been arrested and the search is related to that arrest (such as a search for illegal drugs).
Automobiles may be stopped if an officer possesses a reasonable and articulable suspicion that the motorist has violated a traffic law. If the reason for the stop is a minor traffic offense like speeding, the officer likely wouldn't be permitted to search your car without more reason. However, if police arrest you for conduct arising out of a traffic stop, a search of your vehicle incident to arrest will usually be allowed.
Basically, if you're in a vehicle they have ya by the balls.
I am not a member of any organized political party. I am a Democrat. [Will Rogers]
gounion
Posts: 18056
Joined: Sun Oct 24, 2021 4:59 pm

Re: Racist/Corrupt/Immoral Police Thread.

Post by gounion »

bradman wrote: Sat Feb 04, 2023 1:14 pm https://www.findlaw.com/criminal/crimin ... rrant.html
Can the Police Legitimately Search My Vehicle Without a Warrant?
+
Basically, if you're in a vehicle they have ya by the balls.
Well, no they don't. They would have to give me a legitimate and reasonable suspicion to search the car. Even if they gave me one, I would demand a supervisor, and any search would be done with the understanding that a lawsuit would be forthcoming.

In other words, yep, they can do it. They can also kill me. But I am a free person in this United States with Constitutional protections, and I believe that they are worth standing up for.
gounion
Posts: 18056
Joined: Sun Oct 24, 2021 4:59 pm

Re: Racist/Corrupt/Immoral Police Thread.

Post by gounion »

Glennfs wrote: Fri Feb 03, 2023 8:01 pm I am not big on the white privilege thing, but what you describe is 64 year old white guy driving a decent car who appears to have means privilege.
Let 20 year old broke GoU driving a beater car try that and see where it gets you.

Again here in the real world you
Turn on your light
Keep hands on the wheel
Answer yes sir and no sir
You do not debate or ask questions or start spouting about rights. Just comply.
Deal with problems the next day.

I forgot to add if they ask for something in the glove box you ask permission before going after it.
Oh, hell, it got me out of all kinds of things. I never had my car searched. I was never cuffed. Hell, once I had the cop just tell us to empty the beer cans and continue on down the road. In that case, it was a plainclothes officer of some type who was honking at us and flashing his badge. When we pulled over, the first thing he said to us was "hold on, I just swallowed my gum".

True story. Some things you just can't make up.
Post Reply