Ukraine

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Motor City
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Re: Ukraine

Post by Motor City »

gounion wrote: Mon Jan 16, 2023 6:54 am Then we should just give up, walk away and let Russia take the Ukraine, right?
Have you looked at Ukraine lately? What exactly are you trying to save by way of war?
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gounion
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Re: Ukraine

Post by gounion »

Of course, the plan was always to keep Kim as a national pariah, not giving him standing as a world leader, and to keep anyone, including China, from trading with him. That plan worked through the Bush II and Obama Administrations, and Kim was choked off from the materials he needed.

But Trump elevated Kim to a legitimate world leader, and the pressure for China not to trade with him vanished, and he went back into full production.

And Glenn championed Trump's actions.
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Re: Ukraine

Post by gounion »

Motor City wrote: Mon Jan 16, 2023 8:33 am Have you looked at Ukraine lately? What exactly are you trying to save by way of war?
So it would have been better for Putin to have rolled over them, right?
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Drak
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Re: Ukraine

Post by Drak »

Motor City wrote: Mon Jan 16, 2023 8:33 am Have you looked at Ukraine lately? What exactly are you trying to save by way of war?
Ukraine isn’t losing here. Should they just roll over to an army that rapes, mutilates and murders women and children? Who claim the Ukrainian people are sub human and should be obliterated? What would your attitude be if your country was invaded?
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Motor City
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Re: Ukraine

Post by Motor City »

Drak wrote: Mon Jan 16, 2023 8:42 am

Ukraine isn’t losing here. Should they just roll over to an army that rapes, mutilates and murders women and children? Who claim the Ukrainian people are sub human and should be obliterated? What would your attitude be if your country was invaded?
gounion wrote: Mon Jan 16, 2023 8:36 am
So it would have been better for Putin to have rolled over them, right?
No Im saying we all shouldnt be rolled over and into rooting for endless war that doesnt solve endless war. On this day especially that we honor MLK who prophecied to us the transformation we are currently going through with militarization, imperialism and racism.
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gounion
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Re: Ukraine

Post by gounion »

Motor City wrote: Mon Jan 16, 2023 9:02 am No Im saying we all shouldnt be rolled over and into rooting for endless war that doesnt solve endless war. On this day especially that we honor MLK who prophecied to us the transformation we are currently going through with militarization, imperialism and racism.
Look, this isn't endless war. This is a people fighting for their freedom. Period. This isn't Vietnam.

Now, you tell us. The ONLY way to end this war now is for the Ukrainian people to give up and surrender to Putin.

What is your solution?
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Drak
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Re: Ukraine

Post by Drak »

Motor City wrote: Mon Jan 16, 2023 9:02 am No Im saying we all shouldnt be rolled over and into rooting for endless war that doesnt solve endless war. On this day especially that we honor MLK who prophecied to us the transformation we are currently going through with militarization, imperialism and racism.
No one is rooting for “endless war.”

Vlad doesn’t give a crap that it’s MLK day. They are torturing, raping and murdering the Ukrainian people.
"Some of those that work forces,
Are the same that burn crosses"

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ZoWie
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Re: Ukraine

Post by ZoWie »

Ukraine is on Putin, and to a lesser extent drumpf.

The sudden loss of grain which made food prices go crazy, and to a lesser extent the shortage of natural gas which is costing us $1000 to heat our house this crazy winter, is also on them, not me, nor on the Democratic Party. It's TFG's mess for being ignorant, and the Republican Party's mess for encouraging globalization at any cost.

War for its own sake is never the answer, but Putin thought it was. Drumpf and his oligarchic cabal was in bed with the Russian plutocrats and encouraged Putin for financial reasons, creating a monster, and now we don't have a lot of alternatives. Putin has made noises about conquering his way clear back to Berlin. It's probably just propaganda, but with crazies like him, one never knows for sure.

There are two ways to stop him. One would involve a targeted assassination by a third player, the failure of which would likely cause human extinction. The other is to support the country he invaded by maintaining the balance of power, even though it also has a very small possibility of turning this planet into a dead radioactive mess. Either one is fraught with many unknowns and neither is a completely satisfactory answer. However, Ukraine isn't Indochina, there is no bullshit anti-communism hysteria, and some clown really did launch his country's military for shits and grins against another one just like all the aristocratic fun and games in the 17th Century. Some people seem to be slow learners.
"We must remember that we cannot abandon the truth and remain a free nation." --Liz Cheney, Republican, 7/21/22
gounion
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Re: Ukraine

Post by gounion »

ZoWie wrote: Mon Jan 16, 2023 11:42 am Ukraine is on Putin, and to a lesser extent drumpf.

The sudden loss of grain which made food prices go crazy, and to a lesser extent the shortage of natural gas which is costing us $1000 to heat our house this crazy winter, is also on them, not me, nor on the Democratic Party. It's TFG's mess for being ignorant, and the Republican Party's mess for encouraging globalization at any cost.

War for its own sake is never the answer, but Putin thought it was. Drumpf and his oligarchic cabal was in bed with the Russian plutocrats and encouraged Putin for financial reasons, creating a monster, and now we don't have a lot of alternatives. Putin has made noises about conquering his way clear back to Berlin. It's probably just propaganda, but with crazies like him, one never knows for sure.

There are two ways to stop him. One would involve a targeted assassination by a third player, the failure of which would likely cause human extinction. The other is to support the country he invaded by maintaining the balance of power, even though it also has a very small possibility of turning this planet into a dead radioactive mess. Either one is fraught with many unknowns and neither is a completely satisfactory answer. However, Ukraine isn't Indochina, there is no bullshit anti-communism hysteria, and some clown really did launch his country's military for shits and grins against another one just like all the aristocratic fun and games in the 17th Century. Some people seem to be slow learners.
I think this IS different. We're giving the Ukraine stronger and better weapons, now we're giving them tanks. All the while Russia's best weaponry has already been destroyed, they are out of ammo, and the soldiers are deserting as quickly as they can.

This war shows how much of a paper tiger Russia is militarily, all they have are nukes. I think this show of NATO force will keep China from invading Taiwan. Our problem with the invasion is that we're reliant on Chinese chips and other tech to run our defense production, and China cutting us off could be a disaster. Good thing Biden signed the CHIPS Act. Hopefully soon we'll have that rectified.
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ZoWie
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Re: Ukraine

Post by ZoWie »

It will take years to get domestic chip production up and running in commercial quantities, but it's a good thing, and it's a major accomplishment for a Democratic president to get it through the typically obstructionist Congress. We won't be seeing anything else like that for at least two years.

There's a real shortage of the materials used to make chips, which are mined and not widely found. They just found a new deposit of some important mineral or metal or something, and that will help.

No chips and the world grinds to a halt. This is the technology we have made for ourselves, and now everything relies on it, and for better or worse we're stuck with it.
"We must remember that we cannot abandon the truth and remain a free nation." --Liz Cheney, Republican, 7/21/22
Motor City
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Re: Ukraine

Post by Motor City »

gounion wrote: Mon Jan 16, 2023 9:11 am Look, this isn't endless war. This is a people fighting for their freedom. Period. This isn't Vietnam.

Now, you tell us. The ONLY way to end this war now is for the Ukrainian people to give up and surrender to Putin.

What is your solution?
Well then when is the end then? 6 months, 9 years 20 years when? How free are the people to be warm in the frigid cold, to go to a hospital when they need to, to feel safe and secure, to provide for their families, to have a residence?

Yes it is Vietnam. It is proxy war and war of attrition and perversion of the affluent all over the globe wasting resources so the vulnerable, the impoverished will be further left out, starved out, terrorized, traumatized.

I never said any such thing about giving up except that we should not surrender to endless war, war mongers, or business war folks.

We should use international diplomacy and stop it all together and work out whatever issues that way instead of Killing, traumatizing, and destroying Ukraine and its people.
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gounion
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Re: Ukraine

Post by gounion »

Motor City wrote: Mon Jan 16, 2023 5:20 pm Well then when is the end then? 6 months, 9 years 20 years when? How free are the people to be warm in the frigid cold, to go to a hospital when they need to, to feel safe and secure, to provide for their families, to have a residence?

Yes it is Vietnam. It is proxy war and war of attrition and perversion of the affluent all over the globe wasting resources so the vulnerable, the impoverished will be further left out, starved out, terrorized, traumatized.

I never said any such thing about giving up except that we should not surrender to endless war, war mongers, or business war folks.

We should use international diplomacy and stop it all together and work out whatever issues that way instead of Killing, traumatizing, and destroying Ukraine and its people.
No, it isn’t. We can’t put our own troops in, because we can’t risk nuclear war with Russia, but this war is being waged to win. Vietnam was never being waged to win.

Now, if we let Russia declare a cease-fire, they’ll use it to re-arm during the winter mud season. THAT’S how you prolong this war.

But the USA and NATO is helping the people of Ukraine to WIN this war.
Motor City
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Re: Ukraine

Post by Motor City »

To win what and for who?
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gounion
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Re: Ukraine

Post by gounion »

Motor City wrote: Mon Jan 16, 2023 6:45 pm To win what and for who?
To win back the freedom of the Ukraine people.

Look, they were INVADED. It wasn't a situation of two sides having a fight. Russia was the aggressor, and the Ukraine is defending itself.
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Re: Ukraine

Post by Motor City »

gounion wrote: Tue Jan 17, 2023 8:27 am
To win back the freedom of the Ukraine people.

Look, they were INVADED. It wasn't a situation of two sides having a fight. Russia was the aggressor, and the Ukraine is defending itself.
Then why isn't the United States, with its vast resources and standing, working toward ending the conflict and using diplomacy? Why are they acting as if the only means available are to sell weapons and siphon off the treasury as their own citizens wallow in epidemics of poverty, violence, inequality, injustice, suicide, pandemic, and health care segregation? Is it that they would rather rebuild whats being destroyed over and over and over till money that would otherwise be spent on Americans is depleted.

US to help Ukraine repair power grid after Russian strikes
....The Biden administration is providing $125 million for electrical parts and other supplies to help repair crews in Ukraine keep up with Russian strikes pounding the country's electrical system, the U.S. international development aid chief said Wednesday.

The U.S. Agency for International Development plans to use the money to procure backup power for Kyiv's water and district-heating systems. The funding also will help replenish supplies of gas turbines, transformers and other vital power equipment.....
Or perhaps the military industrial complex as bloated and mammoth as it is has appetites that it cant refrain from needs to be fed and fed and fed and fed no matter how it goes about it.
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gounion
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Re: Ukraine

Post by gounion »

Motor City wrote: Wed Jan 18, 2023 3:36 pm Then why isn't the United States, with its vast resources and standing, working toward ending the conflict and using diplomacy? Why are they acting as if the only means available are to sell weapons and siphon off the treasury as their own citizens wallow in epidemics of poverty, violence, inequality, injustice, suicide, pandemic, and health care segregation? Is it that they would rather rebuild whats being destroyed over and over and over till money that would otherwise be spent on Americans is depleted.

US to help Ukraine repair power grid after Russian strikes

Or perhaps the military industrial complex as bloated and mammoth as it is has appetites that it cant refrain from needs to be fed and fed and fed and fed no matter how it goes about it.
At this point, the only diplomatic solution is to let Putin do what he wants, take the Ukraine for his own. Why do you want to hand the Ukraine to him?
Glennfs
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Re: Ukraine

Post by Glennfs »

Delte
" I am a socialist " Bernie Sanders
gounion
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Re: Ukraine

Post by gounion »

Glennfs wrote: Thu Jan 19, 2023 11:57 amDelte
Sometimes it's better to keep your fool mouth shut, isn't it, Glenn?
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Re: Ukraine

Post by Glennfs »

gounion wrote: Thu Jan 19, 2023 12:12 pm Sometimes it's better to keep your fool mouth shut, isn't it, Glenn?
No I posted on the wrong thread.
But, every night before I go to bed I pray to God to make me perfect and as intelligent as you.
" I am a socialist " Bernie Sanders
gounion
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Re: Ukraine

Post by gounion »

Glennfs wrote: Thu Jan 19, 2023 12:15 pm No I posted on the wrong thread.
But, every night before I go to bed I pray to God to make me perfect and as intelligent as you.
Again bullshit. But then that's all you got.

You don't want to post here because you know your party supports Vlad over America.
Glennfs
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Re: Ukraine

Post by Glennfs »

gounion wrote: Thu Jan 19, 2023 12:16 pm Again bullshit. But then that's all you got.

You don't want to post here because you
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Glennfs
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Re: Ukraine

Post by Glennfs »

gounion wrote: Thu Jan 19, 2023 12:16 pm Again bullshit. But then that's all you got.

You don't want to post here because you know your party supports Vlad over America.
No I accidentally posted my covid comment here.
But of course you know what I really did.
" I am a socialist " Bernie Sanders
gounion
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Re: Ukraine

Post by gounion »

Glennfs wrote: Thu Jan 19, 2023 12:19 pm No I accidentally posted my covid comment here.
But of course you know what I really did.
I know you've ran way from commenting on The Ukraine's war with Russia.
Motor City
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Re: Ukraine

Post by Motor City »

gounion wrote: Wed Jan 18, 2023 4:27 pm At this point, the only diplomatic solution is to let Putin do what he wants, take the Ukraine for his own. Why do you want to hand the Ukraine to him?
I just dont understand putting all of our trust in violence and destruction and no effort or work into diplomacy. There haven't even been any attempts at diplomacy. Does that seem right to you?

It looks like putin is already doing what he wants, the longer it goes on the more uninhabitable Ukraine becomes, the more Ukraine becomes haunted by the trauma and terror and ghosts what was and never will be again. The longer it goes on the more people live with it on the inside. The more people that live with it on the inside the more disfunctional people and societies with that on their insides become.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PrZFscfJxXc

The sirens blaring do you hear that?
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gounion
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Re: Ukraine

Post by gounion »

Motor City wrote: Thu Jan 19, 2023 8:29 pm I just dont understand putting all of our trust in violence and destruction and no effort or work into diplomacy. There haven't even been any attempts at diplomacy. Does that seem right to you?

It looks like putin is already doing what he wants, the longer it goes on the more uninhabitable Ukraine becomes, the more Ukraine becomes haunted by the trauma and terror and ghosts what was and never will be again. The longer it goes on the more people live with it on the inside. The more people that live with it on the inside the more disfunctional people and societies with that on their insides become.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PrZFscfJxXc

The sirens blaring do you hear that?
It takes both sides wanting to make peace, and only one side to make war. Putin doesn't want peace, he wants victory and the subjugation of the Ukraine people.

We can make peace now. Give Putin the Ukraine. If that's what you want, than say so.
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