The LGBTQ Rights Thread.

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ProfX
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Re: The LGBTQ Rights Thread.

Post by ProfX »

As I said the last time this topic came up, if you're going to invoke "science" ...

a) on average, human bio males have higher upper body strength and certain other advantages over females. Bearing in mind, of course, like many other human qualities, this falls over a spectrum or continuum. There are female bodybuilders who could probably out-benchpress every cis male here.
b) I do believe athletic talent is a mix of biological capacity, which is uneven for humans, even within sexes (like height or musculature), along with dedication and perseverance, practice and training, skill, and in team sports, the ability to cooperate and coordinate with others ... not all of this is biology. Don't ask me what the percentages are that contribute; I have no idea. But yes, as I just noted, there are trans men who CAN beat cis men.

(I'm reminded of the scene in GATTACA where Vincent beats "Eugene" who is his biological/genetic superior sibling in a swim contest. Why? As that film says, "there is no gene for the human spirit". I don't think my point here is anti-science, but rather, anti-reductionist.)

c) I'm OK with setting some kind of standards on hormone levels in professional or Olympic sports. I guess. These things have been around for years. What I cannot understand is why there is this mania to have this at all levels of sporting, even junior/middle school varsity sports.

I know in our culture sporting fits into its single-minded focus on competition. Once again, though, sporting (particularly the team events) can also teach cooperation, something more people in this society ALSO need to learn, and therefore I want all people being able to participate, whether trans or not.
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gounion
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Re: The LGBTQ Rights Thread.

Post by gounion »

Glennfs wrote: Wed Jun 22, 2022 8:06 am In the case of competitive sports the LBGT athlete has an unfair advantage.
In men's basketball, a seven-foot player has an unfair advantage. Should they be banned from the game? Short guys are simply excluded from the game.
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carmenjonze
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Re: The LGBTQ Rights Thread.

Post by carmenjonze »

gounion wrote: Wed Jun 22, 2022 1:44 pm In men's basketball, a seven-foot player has an unfair advantage. Should they be banned from the game? Short guys are simply excluded from the game.
Predatory conservatism: when you don't have any actual policies, invoke a moral panic.

These conservatives do this in every decade, every generation, century after century after century. LGBTQs are the easiest targets, and most especially our trans siblings and children.
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Number6
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Re: The LGBTQ Rights Thread.

Post by Number6 »

Ramstein AB's Chief Command Sergeant is the first openly gay man to serve in that position. The Command Chief Sergeant serves as an enlisted advisor (Top NCO), at the base and Major Command levels, representing the enlisted personnel to the commanders.
Chief Master Sgt. Jeremiah Grisham walks through base housing every evening with his husband and his dog.

But 15 years ago, Grisham never imagined he’d be where he is today: the top enlisted leader for the 521st Air Mobility Operations Wing at Ramstein. As far as he knows, he’s the only openly gay command chief in the Air Force.

Until 2011, when the repeal of the military’s “don’t ask, don’t tell” policy took effect, openly gay and lesbian people were barred from serving in the U.S. armed forces.

Grisham, 42, came out to his military friends in explosive ordnance disposal and to his supervisors when he was a senior airman about 20 years ago.

His sexual orientation “became a little bit of a joke” among the rough-and-tumble EOD crowd, but nobody “really cared,” Grisham said. The tight-knit EOD community was “willing to close ranks and protect,” he added.

“I never felt in danger of being outed to somebody who could impact my career,” Grisham said.

Nor did being gay hinder his advancement opportunities in his 20-plus years in the Air Force. Gay and lesbian service members have largely found acceptance in the military, he said.
https://www.stripes.com/branches/air_fo ... 33019.html
This is good news showing being gay doesn't prevent anyone from promotion to the highest levels in the AF. What Grisham said about his coming out 20 years ago and those he worked with did not "really cared" mirrors what I observed with gays serving in the AF. During my first enlistment, in the late 70s, I lived in the dorms and we had one medical tech who was openly gay and no one cared. His supervisors, co-workers, and commanders knew he was gay but as long as he performed his duties and met standards it wasn't a problem. During my four years there, I never saw or heard of any one having a problem with him because he was gay and we had guys in the dorms who were homophobic but they like this guy. Grisham's story of his coming out verifies my opinion that the vast majority of the military don't care if you're straight or gay but whether you can do the job.
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Bludogdem
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Re: The LGBTQ Rights Thread.

Post by Bludogdem »

gounion wrote: Wed Jun 22, 2022 1:44 pm In men's basketball, a seven-foot player has an unfair advantage. Should they be banned from the game? Short guys are simply excluded from the game.
I’ve seen a number of 7 footers who have no advantage. The sport functions quite normally with the big men. That 7 footer can’t stop the deadly three shooter. There is no unfair advantage here.

The biological advantage a skilled male athlete has over a skilled female athlete in undeniable.

The FINA organization that handles international swimming is going to do what I suggested earlier. Create a new competition category.
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Re: The LGBTQ Rights Thread.

Post by Bludogdem »

ProfX wrote: Wed Jun 22, 2022 10:29 am As I said the last time this topic came up, if you're going to invoke "science" ...

a) on average, human bio males have higher upper body strength and certain other advantages over females. Bearing in mind, of course, like many other human qualities, this falls over a spectrum or continuum. There are female bodybuilders who could probably out-benchpress every cis male here.
b) I do believe athletic talent is a mix of biological capacity, which is uneven for humans, even within sexes (like height or musculature), along with dedication and perseverance, practice and training, skill, and in team sports, the ability to cooperate and coordinate with others ... not all of this is biology. Don't ask me what the percentages are that contribute; I have no idea. But yes, as I just noted, there are trans men who CAN beat cis men.

(I'm reminded of the scene in GATTACA where Vincent beats "Eugene" who is his biological/genetic superior sibling in a swim contest. Why? As that film says, "there is no gene for the human spirit". I don't think my point here is anti-science, but rather, anti-reductionist.)

c) I'm OK with setting some kind of standards on hormone levels in professional or Olympic sports. I guess. These things have been around for years. What I cannot understand is why there is this mania to have this at all levels of sporting, even junior/middle school varsity sports.

I know in our culture sporting fits into its single-minded focus on competition. Once again, though, sporting (particularly the team events) can also teach cooperation, something more people in this society ALSO need to learn, and therefore I want all people being able to participate, whether trans or not.
The science is beginning to have doubts about hormone levels being a sufficient measure. The biological male has greater lung capacity, larger heart, and denser muscles even after hormone therapy.
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ProfX
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Re: The LGBTQ Rights Thread.

Post by ProfX »

That question, while interesting ... all I will note is I notice a lot of men (and some TERFs) claiming to speak for all female athletes are calling for or supporting bans ... but ...

Many women's athletic organizations favor and support the inclusion of trans athletes on women's teams. This is one of many.

https://www.womenssportsfoundation.org/ ... sition.pdf

Women's athletic and sporting associations should be making decisions on trans athlete inclusion. Many of them are in favor of it, it is their decision ultimately, "and that works for me". If a woman's team wants to allow trans athletes on it, or a female sporting association, I don't see why the state government needs to step in and interfere.

Also it seems to me an equal protection clause comes into question, when these states forbid trans women from participation in female athletics, but say nothing about trans men playing in male sports.
"Don't believe every quote attributed to people on the Internet" -- Abraham Lincoln :D
JoeMemphis
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Re: The LGBTQ Rights Thread.

Post by JoeMemphis »

Bludogdem wrote: Thu Jun 23, 2022 1:48 pm I’ve seen a number of 7 footers who have no advantage. The sport functions quite normally with the big men. That 7 footer can’t stop the deadly three shooter. There is no unfair advantage here.

The biological advantage a skilled male athlete has over a skilled female athlete in undeniable.

The FINA organization that handles international swimming is going to do what I suggested earlier. Create a new competition category.
Perhaps we should do away with all distinctions. No more mens or womens sports. Just sports. Seems to be where things are headed.
gounion
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Re: The LGBTQ Rights Thread.

Post by gounion »

JoeMemphis wrote: Thu Jun 23, 2022 3:41 pm Perhaps we should do away with all distinctions. No more mens or womens sports. Just sports. Seems to be where things are headed.
The right has been against women's sports from the beginning, anyway. That'd be perfect for you guys, just like saying that you "don't see skin color" is just an excuse to discriminate against black people while you pretend you don't.
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ProfX
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Re: The LGBTQ Rights Thread.

Post by ProfX »

Coed sports are a thing.

Mixed doubles tennis, for example.

Of course, that usually involves "balancing", i.e. a male and female on each team/side of the court.
"Don't believe every quote attributed to people on the Internet" -- Abraham Lincoln :D
Bludogdem
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Re: The LGBTQ Rights Thread.

Post by Bludogdem »

ProfX wrote: Thu Jun 23, 2022 3:10 pm That question, while interesting ... all I will note is I notice a lot of men (and some TERFs) claiming to speak for all female athletes are calling for or supporting bans ... but ...

Many women's athletic organizations favor and support the inclusion of trans athletes on women's teams. This is one of many.

https://www.womenssportsfoundation.org/ ... sition.pdf

Women's athletic and sporting associations should be making decisions on trans athlete inclusion. Many of them are in favor of it, it is their decision ultimately, "and that works for me". If a woman's team wants to allow trans athletes on it, or a female sporting association, I don't see why the state government needs to step in and interfere.

Also it seems to me an equal protection clause comes into question, when these states forbid trans women from participation in female athletics, but say nothing about trans men playing in male sports.
In a situation where competing parties agree to allow participation I think that’s fine. It happens on occasion with the school I’m associated with. And usually the participants are not college level recruits. They don’t create an imbalance on the field. In one case they were a detriment, but a body that was needed to play the match.

State tournaments are a different situation. College recruit level athletes are different. As I said before add a trans category for tournaments.
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Libertas
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Re: The LGBTQ Rights Thread.

Post by Libertas »

Why are cons so afraid of Trans? Why do they want them to be 2nd class citizens?
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gounion
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Re: The LGBTQ Rights Thread.

Post by gounion »

Title IX is fifty years old this year. Interesting that it's the year the conservatives are looking for ways to end it, isn't it?
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carmenjonze
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Re: The LGBTQ Rights Thread.

Post by carmenjonze »

Bludogdem wrote: Thu Jun 23, 2022 4:37 pm As I said before add a trans category for tournaments.
No.

You dirty bigots are not getting segregation back in any form, nor are you going to make your personal discomforts and bigotries into law, again.

Move to Russia or Saudi Arabia if you don’t like it.
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carmenjonze
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Re: The LGBTQ Rights Thread.

Post by carmenjonze »

gounion wrote: Thu Jun 23, 2022 4:42 pm Title IX is fifty years old this year. Interesting that it's the year the conservatives are looking for ways to end it, isn't it?
Yes, under the guise of protecting girls and women.

They only protect rapists, human traffickers, and other abusers of humanity.
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The way to right wrongs is to
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~ Ida B. Wells
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Libertas
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Re: The LGBTQ Rights Thread.

Post by Libertas »

carmenjonze wrote: Thu Jun 23, 2022 9:13 pm No.

You dirty bigots are not getting segregation back in any form, nor are you going to make your personal discomforts and bigotries into law, again.

Move to Russia or Saudi Arabia if you don’t like it.
Hard to deal with the reality this con and the others here will do nothing, say nothing if MAGA is allowed to kill us.

I will fight as you will, no matter what.

Whether they can get power to do harm isnt the point right now, it is THESE BOARD CONS are going to say nothing if they do.
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carmenjonze
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Re: The LGBTQ Rights Thread.

Post by carmenjonze »

ProfX wrote: Thu Jun 23, 2022 3:10 pm That question, while interesting ... all I will note is I notice a lot of men (and some TERFs) claiming to speak for all female athletes are calling for or supporting bans ... but ...

Many women's athletic organizations favor and support the inclusion of trans athletes on women's teams. This is one of many.

https://www.womenssportsfoundation.org/ ... sition.pdf

Women's athletic and sporting associations should be making decisions on trans athlete inclusion. Many of them are in favor of it, it is their decision ultimately, "and that works for me". If a woman's team wants to allow trans athletes on it, or a female sporting association, I don't see why the state government needs to step in and interfere.
It doesn’t work for me because the state doesn’t have an interest in allowing discrimination on the basis of gender.

These attacks on transgender people and trans women in particular are a way of maintaining both sex- and gender-based discrimination.
Also it seems to me an equal protection clause comes into question, when these states forbid trans women from participation in female athletics, but say nothing about trans men playing in male sports.
Yes the issue is related to supremacists not being able to take losing to people they consider beneath them.

Like none of these people GAS about trans men in sports, they never gave AS about trans women until it meant losing to a trans woman. It’s always some excuse with supremacists. Until Jack Johnson and Jesse Owens, the Third Reich and the rest of the conservative whites were certain they were physically superior in addition to intellectually superior. Then, the gloves came off, I guess literally, when it was shown that their real problem is that they can’t compete.

#cantcompete
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The way to right wrongs is to
Shine the light of truth on them.

~ Ida B. Wells
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carmenjonze
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Re: The LGBTQ Rights Thread.

Post by carmenjonze »

JoeMemphis wrote: Thu Jun 23, 2022 3:41 pm Perhaps we should do away with all distinctions. No more mens or womens sports. Just sports. Seems to be where things are headed.
Learn something about LGBTQ politics and transgender history PRIOR TO trying to comment.

Otherwise, you look ignorant and undereducated as ever.
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The way to right wrongs is to
Shine the light of truth on them.

~ Ida B. Wells
________________________________
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Libertas
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Re: The LGBTQ Rights Thread.

Post by Libertas »

carmenjonze wrote: Thu Jun 23, 2022 9:30 pm Learn something about LGBTQ politics and transgender history PRIOR TO trying to comment.

Otherwise, you look ignorant and undereducated as ever.
Like Trump niece said, "cruelty is the point" or something like that. These cons here love that MAGA and trump may get the power to kill you and me.
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