Mass Shootings/Gun Control Reform Thread

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gounion
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Re: Mass Shootings/Gun Control Reform Thread

Post by gounion »

JoeMemphis wrote: Wed Jul 06, 2022 5:44 pm I don’t have a list on me. I would think it would include things posted on social media, statements made to friends and families, encounters with police, personal circumstances, access to weapons etc. If a judge is presented with enough evidence that leads them to believe you might be a threat to yourself or others, then I think that would justify the temporary removal of weapons until such time as the individual no longer presents a threat.
I don't see the NRA siding with this. Remember that the school kid that got the guns as a present from his parents, the teachers caught him with pictures of him shooting his classmates, but he said he was writing a video game.

Now are kids playing Call of Duty going to be turned in? One of our problems is that this makes everyone spies on everyone else.

And we don't have enough judges now, and we're going to demand that they see what's in someone's heart and decide whether they can pack or not.

To me, there are real things we could actually do. First, we can say that people under 21 can't have high-powered weaponry. Second, we need to get rid of the gun show loophole, and hold people that make straw purchases legally responsible for the weapons the re-sell.

We should probably look at requiring liability insurance for gun ownership.
JoeMemphis

Re: Mass Shootings/Gun Control Reform Thread

Post by JoeMemphis »

gounion wrote: Wed Jul 06, 2022 6:58 pm I don't see the NRA siding with this. Remember that the school kid that got the guns as a present from his parents, the teachers caught him with pictures of him shooting his classmates, but he said he was writing a video game.

Now are kids playing Call of Duty going to be turned in? One of our problems is that this makes everyone spies on everyone else.

And we don't have enough judges now, and we're going to demand that they see what's in someone's heart and decide whether they can pack or not.

To me, there are real things we could actually do. First, we can say that people under 21 can't have high-powered weaponry. Second, we need to get rid of the gun show loophole, and hold people that make straw purchases legally responsible for the weapons the re-sell.

We should probably look at requiring liability insurance for gun ownership.
Personally, I don’t care what the NRA does or does not like. There’s quite a few gun owners who don’t care either. The NRA isn’t the force to be reckoned with that they used to be.

I don’t have an issue with setting an age limit for the purchase of certain weapons. I don’t have an issue with closing the gun show loophole. Liability insurance isn’t an issue that I think makes any difference. My regular insurance covers me for my negligent acts. It does not provide coverage for crimes I might commit. Besides liability insurance won’t stop a shooting.
gounion
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Re: Mass Shootings/Gun Control Reform Thread

Post by gounion »

JoeMemphis wrote: Wed Jul 06, 2022 7:49 pm Personally, I don’t care what the NRA does or does not like. There’s quite a few gun owners who don’t care either. The NRA isn’t the force to be reckoned with that they used to be.
Yes, they still are. Don't pretend otherwise.
I don’t have an issue with setting an age limit for the purchase of certain weapons. I don’t have an issue with closing the gun show loophole. Liability insurance isn’t an issue that I think makes any difference. My regular insurance covers me for my negligent acts. It does not provide coverage for crimes I might commit. Besides liability insurance won’t stop a shooting.
It might prevent who can purchase that insurance, if the insurance company sees them as a risk.

I mean, there's also sometimes market solutions, besides just regulatory solutions.

I think the big one is going after the straw purchasers. That's where all the gang weapons are coming from. Plus, we need to be able to track gun purchases, and right now that isn't being done.
JoeMemphis

Re: Mass Shootings/Gun Control Reform Thread

Post by JoeMemphis »

gounion wrote: Wed Jul 06, 2022 8:55 pm Yes, they still are. Don't pretend otherwise.

It might prevent who can purchase that insurance, if the insurance company sees them as a risk.

I mean, there's also sometimes market solutions, besides just regulatory solutions.

I think the big one is going after the straw purchasers. That's where all the gang weapons are coming from. Plus, we need to be able to track gun purchases, and right now that isn't being done.
As I said, my current liability coverage takes care of ordinary negligence. The only reason to add “gun” coverage would be to limit that specific coverage. I don’t think that accomplishes much. JMO.
gounion
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Re: Mass Shootings/Gun Control Reform Thread

Post by gounion »

JoeMemphis wrote: Wed Jul 06, 2022 9:09 pm As I said, my current liability coverage takes care of ordinary negligence. The only reason to add “gun” coverage would be to limit that specific coverage. I don’t think that accomplishes much. JMO.
Yep, just your opinion.

But if you had to purchase insurance for a gun, the insurance company would be the one paying out big if it was used by you in a crime. I think it would be an important step.
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Libertas
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Re: Mass Shootings/Gun Control Reform Thread

Post by Libertas »

gounion wrote: Wed Jul 06, 2022 9:23 pm Yep, just your opinion.

But if you had to purchase insurance for a gun, the insurance company would be the one paying out big if it was used by you in a crime. I think it would be an important step.
Own a gun used in a crime and go to jail...manufacture a gun used in a crime and get sued for millions.

That is how it should be.
I sigh in your general direction.
JoeMemphis

Re: Mass Shootings/Gun Control Reform Thread

Post by JoeMemphis »

gounion wrote: Wed Jul 06, 2022 9:23 pm Yep, just your opinion.

But if you had to purchase insurance for a gun, the insurance company would be the one paying out big if it was used by you in a crime. I think it would be an important step.
Yep. Just your opinion. My insurance already covers (said this several times) my ordinary negligence including firearms. It doesn’t cover me for crimes I commit or may commit. Never has. So if there is a gun accident in my home I am already covered. No special policy is required.

I doubt any company will provide liability coverage for crimes committed by the policy holder.

Such a requirement would have to be a state requirement because the federal government cannot compel one to buy an insurance product.

But it doesn’t matter. If that’s your opinion, you are welcome to it. I just think it’s a distraction. That’s my opinion.
Glennfs
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Re: Mass Shootings/Gun Control Reform Thread

Post by Glennfs »

gounion wrote: Wed Jul 06, 2022 9:23 pm Yep, just your opinion.

But if you had to purchase insurance for a gun, the insurance company would be the one paying out big if it was used by you in a crime. I think it would be an important step.
Requiring gun insurance would eliminate poor people from owning guns.
It would also eliminate collectors from owning gun collections
Basically only rich people and criminals would own firearms
" I am a socialist " Bernie Sanders
gounion
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Re: Mass Shootings/Gun Control Reform Thread

Post by gounion »

JoeMemphis wrote: Wed Jul 06, 2022 9:37 pm Yep. Just your opinion. My insurance already covers (said this several times) my ordinary negligence including firearms. It doesn’t cover me for crimes I commit or may commit. Never has. So if there is a gun accident in my home I am already covered. No special policy is required.

I doubt any company will provide liability coverage for crimes committed by the policy holder.

Such a requirement would have to be a state requirement because the federal government cannot compel one to buy an insurance product.

But it doesn’t matter. If that’s your opinion, you are welcome to it. I just think it’s a distraction. That’s my opinion.
What about mentally deranged candidates that talk of killing people? Should this man's right to own a gun be taken away?
A new campaign ad from Eric Greitens, the controversial former governor of Missouri now running for U.S. Senate, prompted accusations of glorifying political violence before being flagged by Twitter and removed by Facebook for violating policies around violence and abuse.

"Today, we're going RINO hunting," Greitens, a Republican, said with a smile as he slid the action on his shotgun in the 38-second ad. RINO stands for "Republican in name only."

Greitens and a team of men outfitted in military gear are then shown bursting into a home, guns raised.

"The RINO feeds on corruption and is marked by the stripes of cowardice," said Greitens. "Get a RINO hunting permit. There's no bagging limit, no tagging limit, and it doesn't expire until we save our country."
JoeMemphis

Re: Mass Shootings/Gun Control Reform Thread

Post by JoeMemphis »

gounion wrote: Thu Jul 07, 2022 10:18 am What about mentally deranged candidates that talk of killing people? Should this man's right to own a gun be taken away?
I worry more about how people perceive and interpret this kind of political rhetoric. But if a judge presented with all the facts believes he is an imminent threat to himself or others then I personally have no issue with LE temporarily taking his weapons pending a hearing. No problem whatsoever.
gounion
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Re: Mass Shootings/Gun Control Reform Thread

Post by gounion »

JoeMemphis wrote: Thu Jul 07, 2022 11:33 am I worry more about how people perceive and interpret this kind of political rhetoric. But if a judge presented with all the facts believes he is an imminent threat to himself or others then I personally have no issue with LE temporarily taking his weapons pending a hearing. No problem whatsoever.
Well to me if he was making such threats on a Facebook post, it’d certainly be reason to look into it.

But this is the leading GOP Senate candidate. Don’t it make you proud? Care to tell me why you’d vote for him instead of a sane democratic candidate?
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Number6
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Re: Mass Shootings/Gun Control Reform Thread

Post by Number6 »

Glennfs wrote: Thu Jul 07, 2022 7:36 am Requiring gun insurance would eliminate poor people from owning guns.
That's like saying requiring car insurance would eliminate poor people from owning cars yet, many poor people own cars and have car insurance.
It would also eliminate collectors from owning gun collections
If a gun collector can own a gun collection then they can afford insurance.
Basically only rich people and criminals would own firearms
False and false. Yes, rich people wouldn't have a problem affording gun insurance. As for criminals, they always have access to guns because so many "law abiding" citizens give or sell them guns illegally. Requiring gun insurance wouldn't impair many people from owning a gun.
When you vote left, you vote right.
JoeMemphis

Re: Mass Shootings/Gun Control Reform Thread

Post by JoeMemphis »

Number6 wrote: Thu Jul 07, 2022 2:17 pm That's like saying requiring car insurance would eliminate poor people from owning cars yet, many poor people own cars and have car insurance.


If a gun collector can own a gun collection then they can afford insurance.


False and false. Yes, rich people wouldn't have a problem affording gun insurance. As for criminals, they always have access to guns because so many "law abiding" citizens give or sell them guns illegally. Requiring gun insurance wouldn't impair many people from owning a gun.
The federal govt can’t force you to buy insurance. States can assuming you will find a willing insurance company. I kinda doubt you are going to find an insurance company will to write a liability policy which covers the criminal acts of the insured.
gounion
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Re: Mass Shootings/Gun Control Reform Thread

Post by gounion »

gounion wrote: Thu Jul 07, 2022 11:53 am Well to me if he was making such threats on a Facebook post, it’d certainly be reason to look into it.

But this is the leading GOP Senate candidate. Don’t it make you proud? Care to tell me why you’d vote for him instead of a sane democratic candidate?
Yeah, I didn't think Joe would want to answer this.
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Number6
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Re: Mass Shootings/Gun Control Reform Thread

Post by Number6 »

JoeMemphis wrote: Thu Jul 07, 2022 2:26 pm The federal govt can’t force you to buy insurance.
That's a state requirement but why couldn't the Congress pass a law requiring gun insurance for gun owners?
States can assuming you will find a willing insurance company.
If insurance companies think they can make a profit off gun insurance they'll offer policies. I think they could do it but they'd have strict requirements like requiring guns be stored in a safe or locked cabinet or have trigger locks when not being use.
I kinda doubt you are going to find an insurance company will to write a liability policy which covers the criminal acts of the insured.
Your comment is one that uses absurdity to make a point but it failed. If a person applies for a gun policy telling the insurance agent they're going to use the gun in a criminal act then not only would the insurance agent refuse to write them a policy but most likely report them to the police. No doubt a gun insurance policy would have a clause stating use of a gun in a criminal or unlawful act would void the insurance policy.
When you vote left, you vote right.
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Libertas
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Re: Mass Shootings/Gun Control Reform Thread

Post by Libertas »

gounion wrote: Thu Jul 07, 2022 2:42 pm Yeah, I didn't think Joe would want to answer this.
Are you all talking about the nut case who has guys behind him in camo and they walk up and blow up something?

Repubs who normally dont vote will break land speed records getting to the polls to vote for him, and why? Because he wants to kill you, he wants to kill me, and the others here. The cons here who would vote for him want us dead, but so far they are themselves not willing to do it.

You cant repeatedly vote for fascist killers and then say you are not one of them.
I sigh in your general direction.
JoeMemphis

Re: Mass Shootings/Gun Control Reform Thread

Post by JoeMemphis »

gounion wrote: Thu Jul 07, 2022 2:42 pm Yeah, I didn't think Joe would want to answer this.
Your first paragraph didn’t require an answer. And your second paragraph didn’t deserve one. Bottomline, if there are red flag laws I would expect them to apply to everyone.
JoeMemphis

Re: Mass Shootings/Gun Control Reform Thread

Post by JoeMemphis »

Number6 wrote: Thu Jul 07, 2022 2:43 pm That's a state requirement but why couldn't the Congress pass a law requiring gun insurance for gun owners?


If insurance companies think they can make a profit off gun insurance they'll offer policies. I think they could do it but they'd have strict requirements like requiring guns be stored in a safe or locked cabinet or have trigger locks when not being use.


Your comment is one that uses absurdity to make a point but it failed. If a person applies for a gun policy telling the insurance agent they're going to use the gun in a criminal act then not only would the insurance agent refuse to write them a policy but most likely report them to the police. No doubt a gun insurance policy would have a clause stating use of a gun in a criminal or unlawful act would void the insurance policy.
Federal government cannot compel individuals to buy products. See the first case ACA SCOTUS case under the Robert’s Court. It’s why it was finally decided that it wasn’t a fine for not buying insurance but rather a tax.

My homeowners policy covers my liability for ordinary negligence. Why do I need coverage? Further insurance doesn’t cover you for liability for crimes you commit. There is a difference between ordinary negligence and crimes. Next time you sit down with your agent ask them if that have a liability policy they will sell you that covers you for crimes you commit. This whole insurance thing is a distraction. It won’t cover criminal liability. The fed gov can’t pass it. Most states won’t pass it. Ins companies won’t write it.
gounion
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Re: Mass Shootings/Gun Control Reform Thread

Post by gounion »

JoeMemphis wrote: Thu Jul 07, 2022 3:37 pm Your first paragraph didn’t require an answer. And your second paragraph didn’t deserve one. Bottomline, if there are red flag laws I would expect them to apply to everyone.
I knew you still couldn't.
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Libertas
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Re: Mass Shootings/Gun Control Reform Thread

Post by Libertas »

gounion wrote: Thu Jul 07, 2022 3:57 pm I knew you still couldn't.
Forget insurance, for the moment.

Simply take away from gun mfgs the special treatment they get in that they cant be sued for negligence, wrongful death, etc. related to a gun they mfg.

Then I can explain what would happen.



ps


Cons here love this guy











https://youtu.be/XtnRCS1t3t0




Tucker Carlson Blames Women For The Men Who Commit Mass Shootings - Ring of Fire



Fox News host Tucker Carlson has emerged as the Republican with the absolute worst take on mass shootings this week, after he suggested that the men who commit these acts could be doing so because they are tired of being lectured about "male privilege" from women. It wasn't immediately clear how the two things could even be connected, but that didn't stop Carlson from making the assertion. Ring of Fire's Farron Cousins explains what's happening.
I sigh in your general direction.
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Toonces
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Re: Mass Shootings/Gun Control Reform Thread

Post by Toonces »

Insurance is generally for unforeseen things, accidents, and the like.

Crimes are something you actively decide to do. That would be intentionally doing something to cause the insurance company to pay out. Insurance companies never pay out on things you did intentionally. If you set fire to your car, the insurance company isn't going to pay for it. As much as I abhor many insurance business practices, I recognize that they're not there to take responsibility for you. I mean, if you committed a crime knowing that the insurance company would cover you, it kind of incentivizes the risk.

People should be responsible for their crimes and suffer the consequences.

People should definitely have some responsibility if crimes are committed using their guns if they did not secure their guns in a responsible manner. This should also include those who post pictures to social media of them with their gun collection. That's not responsible gun ownership. "Hey, look at all these guns I have". That's just plain stupid.
JoeMemphis

Re: Mass Shootings/Gun Control Reform Thread

Post by JoeMemphis »

gounion wrote: Thu Jul 07, 2022 3:57 pm I knew you still couldn't.
If you want to discuss policy. Okay. If you want to engage in a pointless conversation about how I may choose to vote in the next election, nobody cares but you. It’s your obcession. Not mine.
JoeMemphis

Re: Mass Shootings/Gun Control Reform Thread

Post by JoeMemphis »

Toonces wrote: Thu Jul 07, 2022 4:28 pm Insurance is generally for unforeseen things, accidents, and the like.

Crimes are something you actively decide to do. That would be intentionally doing something to cause the insurance company to pay out. Insurance companies never pay out on things you did intentionally. If you set fire to your car, the insurance company isn't going to pay for it. As much as I abhor many insurance business practices, I recognize that they're not there to take responsibility for you. I mean, if you committed a crime knowing that the insurance company would cover you, it kind of incentivizes the risk.

People should be responsible for their crimes and suffer the consequences.

People should definitely have some responsibility if crimes are committed using their guns if they did not secure their guns in a responsible manner. This should also include those who post pictures to social media of them with their gun collection. That's not responsible gun ownership. "Hey, look at all these guns I have". That's just plain stupid.
What you describe is ordinary negligence and it is what personal liability insurance is designed to cover. As you point out, no insurance company is going to lineup to sell a policy that provides liability coverage for the criminal acts of the insured. That’s why I say, this fixation on insurance is a distraction and won’t come to pass.
Bludogdem
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Re: Mass Shootings/Gun Control Reform Thread

Post by Bludogdem »

gounion wrote: Thu Jul 07, 2022 10:18 am What about mentally deranged candidates that talk of killing people? Should this man's right to own a gun be taken away?
Yeah, only you would believe obvious rhetoric and poor attempts at humor constitute a real threat.
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Libertas
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Re: Mass Shootings/Gun Control Reform Thread

Post by Libertas »

gounion wrote: Thu Jul 07, 2022 10:18 am What about mentally deranged candidates that talk of killing people? Should this man's right to own a gun be taken away?
Greitens and board cons are the real deal. We are not safe, none of us are.
I sigh in your general direction.
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